Dragonmaw Story in Dragonflight

[Skytotem]

I'm sure by now everyone is familiar with the Dragonmaw orc you can interact with Dragonflight who feels guilt over what his clan used to do to dragons, but has a small whelp fall asleep on him and then dies, his blackrock orc friend then journeying off with that whelp following along in its continuation.

It's, on its surface, a very sweet story and I'm glad Blizz attempted to tackle a sensitive issue for the Horde but despite how popular it is...

I honestly think it's bad.

Let's get the minor quibble out of the way, this bit doesn't actually MATTER, but I don't understand how Kolgar could've seen anyone fight Vindicators unless he's a lot older than he seems, but the timeline has never been particularly pertinent.

Kolgar Flameguard says: I started to wonder if I should have felt the same. The Blackrock clan added our share of bones to the Path of Glory. What was the difference?--My axe is over there, too, if you could.
Kolgar Flameguard says: The day he died was the first day he touched this whelp. I've seen an orc stare down a hundred vindicators with less fear than that. Like he was afraid the stain inside of him would spill out.


So, that aside, why do I dislike the questchain?

Reason One...

Duroz averts his eyes when they pass the inkeeper.
Kolgar Flameguard says: You're worried they know about your clan.
Duroz Scaletaker says: No. They're too young. I pray that evil never reaches their ears.

Aside from how unbelievable it is that dragons, who live for centuries, wouldn't talk about an event that happened a few decades ago and got a lot of them killed, it's Wrong for Duroz not to confess his role in all this upon his arrival.

Reason Two... it brushes off the Path of Glory, which is CONSIDERABLY WORSE, in comparison to the Dragonmaw's actions. I don't know what Blizz was trying to do there. Again it's unclear how old Kolgar is and what HE has done vs his clan.


And finally...

Reason Three

Kolgar Flameguard says: They 'd say he died a coward but I don't know cowards who could do that. Maybe he did hold me captive in the end. I don't thinkI can go back anymore.

It's not clear whether the Blackrocks he's part of are some of the ones who joined the Horde or not. If they are, then his statements about what 'they' would say and 'not going back' just continue to paint the playable Horde and orcs as awful, and make it so the only good way to be an orc is to leave the Horde to be neutral, or... to die mad about sad about the atrocities their people have committed.

If Kolgar's group are the Evil-Co. Non-Playable Horde Blackrocks from Burning Steppes/Searing Gorge despite him mentioning what Duroz did to resist Garrosh, Zaela, and Sylvanas then... it feels like there's a disconnect from the players. (Especially when Zaela was popular with players because she seemed less evil than Garrosh and folks hoped she would mellow him out, not become evil like him)


I think Blizz still has a big disconnect between the story they want to tell, the implications/lore that we HAVE over the past few years... and what that actually means for the Horde and playerbase.


What do you all think, am I crazy or does this questline not hold up under scrutiny?

Where is the path forward for the Horde? Where is the choice to be a proactive, good force in the world instead of just being passive? Don't get me wrong, I hope we see Kolgar again and they probably made him 'not go home' to keep him as someone the Alliance can interact with but... it feels like there's still a hole from all the characters and development the Horde, and the Orc narrative in particular, has lost over the years and nothing is being done to actually fill it and repair the damage done.

[Aucald]

Let's get the minor quibble out of the way, this bit doesn't actually MATTER, but I don't understand how Kolgar could've seen anyone fight Vindicators unless he's a lot older than he seems, but the timeline has never been particularly pertinent.

Could've easily happened at any time in the Fourth War fought between the Alliance and Horde, in which both the Draenei and Lightforged Draenei Vindicators participated. A Draenei battalion was explicitly involved in the campaign fighting on Kul Tiras.

Aside from how unbelievable it is that dragons, who live for centuries, wouldn't talk about an event that happened a few decades ago and got a lot of them killed, it's Wrong for Duroz not to confess his role in all this upon his arrival.

I was also confused by this and chalked it up to either Duroz not knowing that drakonid are also very long-lived, or referring to the whelplings present and not the drakonid themselves. Alexstrasza's imprisonment and the trauma it caused her are likely also not often topics for casual conversation, either.

it brushes off the Path of Glory, which is CONSIDERABLY WORSE, in comparison to the Dragonmaw's actions. I don't know what Blizz was trying to do there. Again it's unclear how old Kolgar is and what HE has done vs his clan.

Both pain and shame are relative, and what Kolgar views as his own is highly dependent on what he feels is the deeper wrong in need of redress.

It's not clear whether the Blackrocks he's part of are some of the ones who joined the Horde or not. If they are, then his statements about what 'they' would say and 'not going back' just continue to paint the playable Horde and orcs as awful, and make it so the only good way to be an orc is to leave the Horde to be neutral, or... to die mad about sad about the atrocities their people have committed.

I assume he's referring to the Dragonmaw clan remnant found in the Twilight Highlands, whose connection to the Horde is somewhat tenuous due to their loyalty to Zaela, who ultimately betrayed both the Horde and Azeroth by joining Garrosh in his insanity. I don't really see any disconnect here, and the orcs aren't a monolith in and of themselves. There remain orcish holdouts who can't let go of the need for war or overcome their own intrinsic bloodlust, and whoever Kolgar is referring to likely trends that way as opposed to the mainstream of the orcs within the Horde.

[Skytotem]

Could've easily happened at any time in the Fourth War fought between the Alliance and Horde, in which both the Draenei and Lightforged Draenei Vindicators participated. A Draenei battalion was explicitly involved in the campaign fighting on Kul Tiras.



I was also confused by this and chalked it up to either Duroz not knowing that drakonid are also very long-lived, or referring to the whelplings present and not the drakonid themselves. Alexstrasza's imprisonment and the trauma it caused her are likely also not often topics for casual conversation, either.



Both pain and shame are relative, and what Kolgar views as his own is highly dependent on what he feels is the deeper wrong in need of redress.



I assume he's referring to the Dragonmaw clan remnant found in the Twilight Highlands, whose connection to the Horde is somewhat tenuous due to their loyalty to Zaela, who ultimately betrayed both the Horde and Azeroth by joining Garrosh in his insanity. I don't really see any disconnect here, and the orcs aren't a monolith in and of themselves. There remain orcish holdouts who can't let go of the need for war or overcome their own intrinsic bloodlust, and whoever Kolgar is referring to likely trends that way as opposed to the mainstream of the orcs within the Horde.

1. That could work.

2. Well yes but children learn about nasty historical things in school all the time so they don't repeat the circumstances that led to them, I imagine there'd have been a lot of common topics of discussion about what to do about the Dragonmaw during Cata and WoD too that would've kept them in common conversation.

3. I suppose, but it still feels like a bad decision by Blizz.

4. Duroz is Dragonmaw but he died. Kolgar is specifically a Blackrock, so I'm not clear why he'd go 'back' to the Dragonmaw clan, except I guess to not bother telling them he'd croaked since they're all jerks.

[Aresk]

Let's get the minor quibble out of the way, this bit doesn't actually MATTER, but I don't understand how Kolgar could've seen anyone fight Vindicators unless he's a lot older than he seems, but the timeline has never been particularly pertinent.

The Horde was formed in the year -8. Dragonflight is the year 40. The Horde enlisted twelve-year-olds who were magically matured through fel magic to fight, so to have participated in the Path of Glory, he'd have to be about sixty years old. Given that his close friend died of presumably old age, that doesn't seem that odd to me.

As for the rest of it, I'm not overly concerned with what a Dragonmaw orc thinks dragons do or don't know; I interpreted more that he was hoping that future generations would not have to ever know evil the way the dragons he raised did. I don't think acknowledging the Dragonmaw's actions as evil somehow belittles the Path of Glory. Lastly, the fact he can't return to the Horde may just as easily be due to his own feelings of guilt and his desire to see new things than any actual moral judgment of the Horde. The text doesn't really go into great detail, but that was at least the way I read it.

[BaumanKing]

It is indeed a very sweet story, but MoP short story "The Strength of Steel" is by far superior. It is exactly the same subject matter, but less shallow.

[Super Dickmann]

There is no path for the current Horde barring a drastic shift of writing direction that isn't apparent in DF which is still at the very start of the Unifaction paradigm. It's a walking corpse that's removed all its primary institutions after having already scalped its primary race back in Mists. The only thing its components can hope for is servicable individual stories, the faction as a whole is a lost cause. Luckily this is a pretty decent story.

An expansion about dragons dealing with a clan who's whole business is dragons having a story where he bemoans his treatment of dragons doesn't merit much explanation. The Path of Glory got a mention from Sadfang if we want more general self-flagellation, whereas the treatment of the dragons has been out of focus and is more personal and more meaningful for the one doing it. The quest also benefits massively from framing. You do a quest where he discusses breaking whelps younger than these a few metres away from where whelps are presented as basically children, punctuating the weight and cruelty of what he personally actually did.

If anything that his clan saw him as unfit to keep going due to his depression gives it more meat and it's one of the bits I quite enjoyed. It's a personal story. Hell, I even prefer it to Strength of Steel because while Strength of Steel was fairly twee and about someone shedding their clan, in this case it's a situation where there's no expectation for group change, but only about two people coming to terms with themselves. A Dragonmaw Clan that doesn't break, flay etc. dragons isn't really the Dragonmaw clan, they're just frostwolves with a different animals attached, but a Dragonmaw orc that can't deal with what's one of the darkest acts in the lore and his own culpability and goes to deal with it the only way he can both tells a good localized story and doesn't compromise the core gimmick of the group he's a part of.

[Toho]

I don't understand what this post takes issue with. Is it the plot holes or the Orc feeling sorry for himself?

[Gurahk]

I don't understand what this post takes issue with. Is it the plot holes or the Orc feeling sorry for himself?

The orc does not feel sorry for himself, that's the entire point of the questline.

[Toho]

The orc does not feel sorry for himself, that's the entire point of the questline.

Alright... he feels guilty. That doesn't change my question.

[Syegfryed]

I have 0% surprises that the first dragonmaw orc that i saw in this expansion fucking die

The bit about a blackrock going with the dragon is lame, i could just a younger dragonmaw orc like Koak back in mop(go check out his shortstory, is amazing), you know, so he can overcome the pat of his clan, you build new character that can be important for the clan who seems to be non-existent, but that is asking too much from the devs, they ar probably having hard time remembering any other clan but "maghar" and frostwolf.

- - - Updated - - -

It is indeed a very sweet story, but MoP short story "The Strength of Steel" is by far superior. It is exactly the same subject matter, but less shallow.

They probably don't remember that exist, a lot of people don't.

Its a shame, cause it could lead to so many cool interactions and ramifications, but they did backflip with the dragonmaw in wod, so, for all we care, Koak and Steel are dead.

[Grazrug]

Sadly the Dragonmaw Clan is as good as dead. Most sided with Garrosh. Zaela fell early. I doubt we will ever see new dragon riders.

[Iheartnathanos]

You’ve unlocked achievements: pointless lore quibbling

[Skytotem]

Sadly the Dragonmaw Clan is as good as dead. Most sided with Garrosh. Zaela fell early. I doubt we will ever see new dragon riders.

We really should see a return of the orc clans to serve as counterparts to the Human Kingdoms though

- - - Updated - - -

You’ve unlocked achievements: pointless lore quibbling

That's what we do on this forum

[Syegfryed]

We really should see a return of the orc clans to serve as counterparts to the Human Kingdoms though

That is like the pipest of the pipe dream

That would require effort at worldbuilding and caring about the races instead of character X and Y.

[Grazrug]

That is like the pipest of the pipe dream

That would require effort at worldbuilding and caring about the races instead of character X and Y.

That will not happen. Unlike Orcs the humans still have a big population large enough to sustain multiple nations. Orcs lost too many people in the second war.

[Syegfryed]

That will not happen. Unlike Orcs the humans still have a big population large enough to sustain multiple nations. Orcs lost too many people in the second war.

?? second war? orcs reproduced by the hundreds in the camps, to a point that they could conquer the alliance if blackmore(?) plan didn't backfire with Thrall. Orcs are the most populous race in the horde, and, one of the most populous in azeroth with trolls and humans.

[Super Dickmann]

That will not happen. Unlike Orcs the humans still have a big population large enough to sustain multiple nations. Orcs lost too many people in the second war.

Lol lmao population numbers. If Stormwind somehow managed to repopulate after its only survivors from a city-wide massacre had to hide in a sewer, go to Lordaeron, be killed by Arthas and then migrate back and void elves are a viable race despite consisting of one dude's fanbase then orcs have enough people to sustain clan identities. If there's any Doylist reason for clans being gone it's the classic one - the combination of the camps and Thrall melted down the clan identities of all except the Warsong and Frostwolves who managed to remain separate and distinct. The Warsong becoming the backbone of the Kor'kron gutted them after Mists, while a Frostwolf and Blackrock became the cultural baseline, leaving the Mag'har to pick up the torch of distinct clan identities based on the WoD AU ones.

[loras]

I'm sure by now everyone is familiar with the Dragonmaw orc you can interact with Dragonflight who feels guilt over what his clan used to do to dragons, but has a small whelp fall asleep on him and then dies, his blackrock orc friend then journeying off with that whelp following along in its continuation.

It's, on its surface, a very sweet story and I'm glad Blizz attempted to tackle a sensitive issue for the Horde but despite how popular it is...

I honestly think it's bad.

Let's get the minor quibble out of the way, this bit doesn't actually MATTER, but I don't understand how Kolgar could've seen anyone fight Vindicators unless he's a lot older than he seems, but the timeline has never been particularly pertinent.

Kolgar Flameguard says: I started to wonder if I should have felt the same. The Blackrock clan added our share of bones to the Path of Glory. What was the difference?--My axe is over there, too, if you could.
Kolgar Flameguard says: The day he died was the first day he touched this whelp. I've seen an orc stare down a hundred vindicators with less fear than that. Like he was afraid the stain inside of him would spill out.


So, that aside, why do I dislike the questchain?

Reason One...

Duroz averts his eyes when they pass the inkeeper.
Kolgar Flameguard says: You're worried they know about your clan.
Duroz Scaletaker says: No. They're too young. I pray that evil never reaches their ears.

Aside from how unbelievable it is that dragons, who live for centuries, wouldn't talk about an event that happened a few decades ago and got a lot of them killed, it's Wrong for Duroz not to confess his role in all this upon his arrival.

Reason Two... it brushes off the Path of Glory, which is CONSIDERABLY WORSE, in comparison to the Dragonmaw's actions. I don't know what Blizz was trying to do there. Again it's unclear how old Kolgar is and what HE has done vs his clan.


And finally...

Reason Three

Kolgar Flameguard says: They 'd say he died a coward but I don't know cowards who could do that. Maybe he did hold me captive in the end. I don't thinkI can go back anymore.

It's not clear whether the Blackrocks he's part of are some of the ones who joined the Horde or not. If they are, then his statements about what 'they' would say and 'not going back' just continue to paint the playable Horde and orcs as awful, and make it so the only good way to be an orc is to leave the Horde to be neutral, or... to die mad about sad about the atrocities their people have committed.

If Kolgar's group are the Evil-Co. Non-Playable Horde Blackrocks from Burning Steppes/Searing Gorge despite him mentioning what Duroz did to resist Garrosh, Zaela, and Sylvanas then... it feels like there's a disconnect from the players. (Especially when Zaela was popular with players because she seemed less evil than Garrosh and folks hoped she would mellow him out, not become evil like him)


I think Blizz still has a big disconnect between the story they want to tell, the implications/lore that we HAVE over the past few years... and what that actually means for the Horde and playerbase.


What do you all think, am I crazy or does this questline not hold up under scrutiny?

Where is the path forward for the Horde? Where is the choice to be a proactive, good force in the world instead of just being passive? Don't get me wrong, I hope we see Kolgar again and they probably made him 'not go home' to keep him as someone the Alliance can interact with but... it feels like there's still a hole from all the characters and development the Horde, and the Orc narrative in particular, has lost over the years and nothing is being done to actually fill it and repair the damage done.

There is not much good for the Horde to be done, there are no amends to make for actual genocide, the word has been diluted a lot over the years but if a genuine massive and intentional attempt is made to extinguish another race then there is nothing left but to depend on the forgiveness and reason of others, however unjustified it would be.
In the real word it has always been a mostly a-moral matter despite its popular coverage; You do not forgive them because it is in any way a morally good thing to do, but rather because of the consequences of not doing so are infinitely worse.

What do you do with the unforgiveable? Do you kill them all and become like them in the process, likely sparking war, strife and exceedjng suffering in the process?

Or do you do your damb best to ensure that such mistakes, for that is what they are despite the improper subtext of innocense in such a word, can not be made again?

My family suffered from that "latest" real genocide we've seen in recent centuries, our reaction has been to hunt down the direct perpetrators but to spare the perpetrators' peoples and even protect them from the wrath of those who cannot forgive. Perhaps that was a mistake, but if we had certainty in these matters these words would not be written.

I do know though that the emotional approach is greatly counterproductive as can be seen throughout the west; emphasis should be given to the logical consequences of such actions not just for the victims but for perpetrators; their vulnerability to mass hysteria and manipulation primarily, the sped up decline of their skills and capacities as a consequence and the stagnant degeneration that induces, and finally the cost of losing and being held accountable.
The emotional approach only breeds that sort of irate hatred and hysteria from which these horrors once burst forth in the first place.

I would suggest the same for a good story for the orcs: Repentance is only worth so much, let them showcase genuine dedication to limiting those parts of themselves that once brought forth the horrors.
In that sense i do like that they have abolished the position of warchief, a good first step to avoiding the dangerous centralisation of power that made the hordes so vulnerable to corruption, manipulation and atrocity.

For the dragonmaw a different approach may be needed though, as that situation was yet more complex. The dragons were "merely" a means to an end, akin to colonial era slavery. I have no good (or at least freely publically discussable) answer to that, but i would suggest taking a close look at how that issue is treated on a societal level (and mind you that that may be very different from the coverage or public / authoritative reactions to it).
It could be a prickly subject if discussed in earnest, so i'll leave that discussion for less moderated sites (not to the detriment of this one mind you).

[Tarba]

It's just an other attempt for the untalented blizz 9year olds writers to show how much "anduin" orcs are.
You should not ask more from them.

[Le Conceptuel]

leaving the Mag'har to pick up the torch of distinct clan identities based on the WoD AU ones.

I'm of the mind that if there is any hope for the Horde's identity as a faction, it exists in the Mag'har. Although as an addition they were likely a hodgepodge of assets used in acknowledgement of,—if not an outright effort to correct,—the awkward ending of WoD, their internal cultural diversity and "traditional" Orcish identity lends the current pseudo-Horde a great deal of what little potential meat it has.