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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Of course....sadly not surprising. Would say call the game World of Lovecraft if it wouldn't cause some kind of lawsuit
    I would totally play "World of H.P. Lovecraft"!!!

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    well horde side alreayd got the message that their faction isn't working. Baine as the figure head of warchief related matters before they revealed it was a council. Varian's pet spy as the liaison for later quest updates. Virtually every major figure replaced with neutral or alliance characters... not just one but TWO major arcs saying warchief = bad and we should feel bad for liking it.
    Funniest part is how Horde has nothing to fear from Alliance since faction is so passive it actually cares more about keeping Horde fine and well then about its own members. So EVEN if Alliance gained some leverage over the horde they would NEVER use it to harm it!

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Funniest part is how Horde has nothing to fear from Alliance since faction is so passive it actually cares more about keeping Horde fine and well then about its own members. So EVEN if Alliance gained some leverage over the horde they would NEVER use it to harm it!
    And they started the entire thing because Sylvanas convinced the other leads that Alliance could attack at some point... maybe in 100 years! How stupid are these people?

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    And they started the entire thing because Sylvanas convinced the other leads that Alliance could attack at some point... maybe in 100 years! How stupid are these people?
    Must be severe iodine deficiency in Durotar.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    I think it is great that she goes back.

    2 reasons:

    That is not Tyrande.
    Night warrior is some sort of a "trance", she could never stay this way and be... sane.

    And bonus reason: the night warrior is not going to rebuild the Night Elf culture... which pretty much needs proper guidance at the moment as basically all of it´s basements and a large chuck of its population has been wiped out.
    Before they rebuild they'd should remove the imminent threat first, which is the Horde.

  6. #106
    I'm mad about the ending because Tyrande doesn't fucking die.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    well horde side alreayd got the message that their faction isn't working. Baine as the figure head of warchief related matters before they revealed it was a council. Varian's pet spy as the liaison for later quest updates. Virtually every major figure replaced with neutral or alliance characters... not just one but TWO major arcs saying warchief = bad and we should feel bad for liking it.
    Actually, two major arks showed horde = bad. It has nothing to do with the warchief. Sure, Sylvanas was a crazy psychopath, but the vast majority of the horde not only agreed with her but enjoyed the war and stayed with her till the end. Always remember: the horde did not abandon Sylvanas, Sylvanas abandoned the Horde.

  8. #108
    Legendary! Zuben's Avatar
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    The whole Night Warrior business itself was such an asspull I'm happy they're putting that to bed.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I'm mad about the ending because Tyrande doesn't fucking die.
    Its not like she fucken did anything to hurt you so yeah, can it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    The whole Night Warrior business itself was such an asspull I'm happy they're putting that to bed.
    So you happy that they basically made Tyrande assume Anduin’s stance on whole “Horde and Alliance” deal and henc:
    1) Remove any possible conflict within Alliance.

    2) Remove a valid reason for next faction war.

  10. #110
    Being 100% anger all the time isn't really good for the subtleties and nuance that these kind of conflicts can demand. We can probably relate more to Tyrande trying sometimes to go for peace. She had a moment of vengeance, when it was understandable, but it was getting to a point where she would have been angry for too long and it would be less relatable, so it's understandable to me why they would drive it back now. Now obviously if a character flip-flops too much they start to seem like Thrall back pre-Wrath, where the leader ends up not seeming committal to any direction and that can be frustrating.

    But if nothing else is being done to stoke the flames of war, one person being angry while everyone else is being okay makes it seem like only one person in the room is angry and then they're the problem. It feels like that direction often leads to characters going on angry crusades until they're punched off the power horse, and then they're sorry. At least now we skip the expected then and there and we can continue on to the next point where maybe we can be invested again if that's the perspective we're supposed to have. 'Vengeance is bad' is a story we hear all too often, but if we're meant to really feel the plight of the Night Elves being killed and think vengeance is more appropriate in this case, being able to agree with Tyrande in the future if more bad things happen to the Night Elves only really works when the person we're seeing these events through is someone we can understand the perspective of.

    I think they just have to be careful with it seeming too much like a flip-flop, or that she is given an honest chance rather than just dismissing everything that came before. There's a bit of a difference there, but I think it's important when making it believable.

  11. #111
    I thought elves were supposed to be inherently weak since they are still growing as a species in terms of adjusting to a mortality bound life, something that's still fairly new for those of them still kicking it.

    The Naga seem to be a bit more tightly strung, atleast symbolically in their writing, since they attach their powers to azshara and the capability their future follows suit.

    Night elves are still looking for power to attach their egos to, to Illidan and the more magic inclined it seems to be chaos. Malfurion and the druids is nature, tyrande, maiev and others seem to be lost in terms of accepting mortality and pursuing deeper attachments to power vs. Joining the other races in their acceptance in being apart the cycle of life rather than remaining a higher power; a shepherd to the 'lesser races' (malfurion)

  12. #112
    Why is this game called Warcraft again?

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Dazmalak View Post
    Why is this game called Warcraft again?
    Well what can i say, happy now? I just hope that makes horde players more mad because they lost only reason to hate Allianace for anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Being 100% anger all the time isn't really good for the subtleties and nuance that these kind of conflicts can demand. We can probably relate more to Tyrande trying sometimes to go for peace. She had a moment of vengeance, when it was understandable, but it was getting to a point where she would have been angry for too long and it would be less relatable, so it's understandable to me why they would drive it back now. Now obviously if a character flip-flops too much they start to seem like Thrall back pre-Wrath, where the leader ends up not seeming committal to any direction and that can be frustrating.

    But if nothing else is being done to stoke the flames of war, one person being angry while everyone else is being okay makes it seem like only one person in the room is angry and then they're the problem. It feels like that direction often leads to characters going on angry crusades until they're punched off the power horse, and then they're sorry. At least now we skip the expected then and there and we can continue on to the next point where maybe we can be invested again if that's the perspective we're supposed to have. 'Vengeance is bad' is a story we hear all too often, but if we're meant to really feel the plight of the Night Elves being killed and think vengeance is more appropriate in this case, being able to agree with Tyrande in the future if more bad things happen to the Night Elves only really works when the person we're seeing these events through is someone we can understand the perspective of.

    I think they just have to be careful with it seeming too much like a flip-flop, or that she is given an honest chance rather than just dismissing everything that came before. There's a bit of a difference there, but I think it's important when making it believable.
    At this point it dosent matter , vengeance and retribution were only things to help lift night elves from the dust and now they are gone, leaving them broken and now basically sedated to die a slow, ignoble death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohvul View Post
    I thought elves were supposed to be inherently weak since they are still growing as a species in terms of adjusting to a mortality bound life, something that's still fairly new for those of them still kicking it.

    The Naga seem to be a bit more tightly strung, atleast symbolically in their writing, since they attach their powers to azshara and the capability their future follows suit.

    Night elves are still looking for power to attach their egos to, to Illidan and the more magic inclined it seems to be chaos. Malfurion and the druids is nature, tyrande, maiev and others seem to be lost in terms of accepting mortality and pursuing deeper attachments to power vs. Joining the other races in their acceptance in being apart the cycle of life rather than remaining a higher power; a shepherd to the 'lesser races' (malfurion)
    Night elves never had that problem for real, aside from physical aspect of losing immortality. They had their duty to their land and their faith and lived perfectly fine with that until they literally got robbed of it all by Blizz.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Its just... mind boggling. I am not sure what that supposed to tell us. That trying to avenge your people is wrong and you should just accept a role of a cattle? Go back to pasture to fatten up a bit before the next slaughter?
    Well, if you remember that these guys were the ones who made the Draenei CHEER the guy who genocided them and used their very souls to fuel a portal so he could go genocide a whole other planets (whose guys were ALSO made to cheer him)... because he didn't give a fuck about them BUT killed one common foe... then well, I'd say it's stupid, but expected.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    At this point it dosent matter , vengeance and retribution were only things to help lift night elves from the dust and now they are gone, leaving them broken and now basically sedated to die a slow, ignoble death.
    I certainly think it's true that fans wanted Night Elves to be feral and dangerous like they were of old for a long time. The "return to glory" for the Night Elves has been a wanted angle for ages. But, now that it's here, I would worry it would aggravate in the other direction if it had stayed like that for too long. I think there is more to the Night Elves, like Elune Worship, and Druidism, their love of the forests, animals, their long lives, their experience that can grant wisdom beyond that of mortals, their traumatic separation from many different fragments of their society, and the memory of so much history that comes from a life long lived. Saying that Night Elves would only be valuable for their ferocity ignores everything else Night Elves have to offer. But to be fair, there is more that the dark side of the moon, that wrath of Elune, that angle of Night Warriors or Elune's Chosen, that can still be further explored. Other similar paths have opened thematically recently, such as risen undead Night Elf Wardens, and the Moonfang family setting precedent for Night Elf Paladins and so on. Elune's Wrath and the story of the wrath of the Night Elves I don't think will end with Tyrande right here and now, I imagine it will just take on new faces and the fight will continue on in other ways going forward.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    I certainly think it's true that fans wanted Night Elves to be feral and dangerous like they were of old for a long time. The "return to glory" for the Night Elves has been a wanted angle for ages. But, now that it's here, I would worry it would aggravate in the other direction if it had stayed like that for too long. I think there is more to the Night Elves, like Elune Worship, and Druidism, their love of the forests, animals, their long lives, their experience that can grant wisdom beyond that of mortals, their traumatic separation from many different fragments of their society, and the memory of so much history that comes from a life long lived. Saying that Night Elves would only be valuable for their ferocity ignores everything else Night Elves have to offer. But to be fair, there is more that the dark side of the moon, that wrath of Elune, that angle of Night Warriors or Elune's Chosen, that can still be further explored. Other similar paths have opened thematically recently, such as risen undead Night Elf Wardens, and the Moonfang family setting precedent for Night Elf Paladins and so on. Elune's Wrath and the story of the wrath of the Night Elves I don't think will end with Tyrande right here and now, I imagine it will just take on new faces and the fight will continue on in other ways going forward.
    Druidism, wisdom and forgiveness were explored a LOT over WoW’s timeline. And all it done for night elves is to make them the “battered spouses” of WoW and humiliate the race.

    There is a place for forgiveness and place for murdering your enemies and using them as fertiliser. And wisdom dictates to secure your place in the world by aggression if need be , if enemy refuses to be reasoned with.

    Also relegating “wrath” aspect to undead night elves is just carting it off to the Horde and again dumping a good plotline to that cesspool.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    I certainly think it's true that fans wanted Night Elves to be feral and dangerous like they were of old for a long time. The "return to glory" for the Night Elves has been a wanted angle for ages. But, now that it's here, I would worry it would aggravate in the other direction if it had stayed like that for too long. I think there is more to the Night Elves, like Elune Worship, and Druidism, their love of the forests, animals, their long lives, their experience that can grant wisdom beyond that of mortals, their traumatic separation from many different fragments of their society, and the memory of so much history that comes from a life long lived. Saying that Night Elves would only be valuable for their ferocity ignores everything else Night Elves have to offer. But to be fair, there is more that the dark side of the moon, that wrath of Elune, that angle of Night Warriors or Elune's Chosen, that can still be further explored. Other similar paths have opened thematically recently, such as risen undead Night Elf Wardens, and the Moonfang family setting precedent for Night Elf Paladins and so on. Elune's Wrath and the story of the wrath of the Night Elves I don't think will end with Tyrande right here and now, I imagine it will just take on new faces and the fight will continue on in other ways going forward.
    Anger why if not.
    But in this situation the elves have two options.
    Either be Lambs and wait for the wolf to attack them again or kill the Wolf.

    No one expects Tyrande to attack the Eternal Night or even the Forsaken. Just do enough damage to the Horde so they don't attack them again for 5 times. Peace has already been tried and is not valid.

  18. #118
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    She at least has the power, but I think reverting the eyes is lame. I suppose they change color when she activates her dark moon magic?

    I'm not sure what to make of this character arc. It shows again how Tyrande is Elune's favored by being the only Night Warrior to master both phases but it makes you wonder if the position is just some harsh test for Elune's most faithful. No help, just given powers and if you figure it out you keep them, and if you don't you die. Needlessly brutal.

    As for her vengeance, it's very cheap. Jaina was pushed closer to destruction and bloodlust for less.
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  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    I certainly think it's true that fans wanted Night Elves to be feral and dangerous like they were of old for a long time. The "return to glory" for the Night Elves has been a wanted angle for ages. But, now that it's here, I would worry it would aggravate in the other direction if it had stayed like that for too long.
    This isn't a serious concern. The Night Elves have been neutered since Day 1 of Vanilla when they joined humans they'd never met before and ditched their gender roles of 10k years plus their nocturnal lifestyle on their behalf. Since then they've jobbed at all times. The only times they've threatened to resemble their WC3 selves even a bit were Tyrande's stint as prosecutor, which was laughable due to the setup, Tyrande saying mean words that got cut out due to people complaining in Val'sharah and finally BFA. The one possible good to come out of the Teldrassil situation would be to recommit them to the angle the vast majority of their fanbase enjoys, namely the night elves as predatory and dangerous. The Night Warrior and Terror of Darkshore angles, for as hokey as they were in implementation, had that concept and that's why at least the cinematic was well liked - only for it to last only for that patch and then vanish.

    Night Elves whinge about rebuilding even in 8.3, Shadows Rising makes them satisfied with only going for Sylvanas despite all their contact with the Horde since Vanilla being a negative spiral in which Sylvanas only had a role in the last year and Tyrande, after failing to make any difference whatsoever in regards to her power up is hectored constantly by every NPC despite the extreme moderation of her views. Before she or the night elves in this characterization get to do anything, the story is abruptly cut short to revert them to yet another bland husk going on about love, tolerance and rebuilding. The lifespan of the pseudo-WC3 night elves brought in in 8.1 was about a year and a half, of which one patch of content had them be relevant, compared to the domesticated night elves who've occupied fifteen years and have consistently been about as well received by their fanbase as foot fungus.

    The root of the problem is that the writers consider any conflict not waged between forces of absolute good for the sake of absolute good against absolute evil to be itself morally flawed. See also Uther being pissed at Arthas being cast as bad, everything Baine does re: the Alliance, Jaina's entire story in Kul Tiras, Genn in War Crimes, etc. The end point of this is people who have no emotional stake in anything they're doing and who're so chill and in line with each other that they are vegetables in the absence of a foreign body. Supposing Sylvanas had been zapped out of existence before 9.0 (if only), all these identical clones would fondle themselves doing nothing because they agree on all points and have no strong feelings for anything one way or another.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-05-13 at 05:47 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    The issue is that they refuse to give the position they "deserve" but at the same time burn Teldrazzil.
    They don't want the Kaldorei to be the center of attention but they make a splash on Suramar.
    And so we go on and on. We fans don't usually complain if you don't bother us. But Blizzard has to come to bother us for some morbid or hatred that he has against the race.

    After Legion the Kaldorei should be guarded for 2 or 3 expansions. But as they burned Teldrazzil now they will have to merge them in history until they take revenge. They forced themselves to write about the race that they did not want to write and not only that but almost all the attention ended there.

    There are factions of Sw that I did not see a topic in any forum but there are always 1 or 2 topics from the burning of Teldrazzil.




    Maiev may have brought revenge and then been silenced by Tyrande who was seeking reconstruction.
    In the end we have .. nothing.
    Writerss hould lvoe their work and everyone play a place in the story.

    thing about wow is it's a jumbled mess with no consistency most of the time, things come into the limelight and fade, directions change.


    It's quite odd for someone like the night elves to be so pivotal from introduction which usually sets the tone, like they are in WC3, then become what they do become in Wow, if you were reading it like one piece, the game emphasis is all off.

    The fortunate thing is since the story is told across several mediums, the point could be made that different perspectives are shown in the game as opposed to a full on narrative.


    Illidan the novel for example frames TBC more along the lines of WC3, where night elves are once again at the centre of the activity, yet in the game they are not.

    This is why I take the books very seriously in interpreting the night elves, but many of my opponents ignore them, only factoring the game's perspective. But the game is very inconcsistent, all over the place and is terrible for an accurate broadview.

    This is why WC1-3 narrative is still the watershed mark for lore, and in it night elves are very influential, the lore in Wc3 did not change, not even the one in the instruction manual, chronicles reflects this many years later - in fact the only thing that is changed is the night elves being the "first to awakened" which is re-interpreted as the first to become fully intelligent/sentient at least by today's standard rather than sentient/alive like in LotR. Which they did specifically mentioned over a decade ago.

    However you are right, in game the kaldorei should have had a lot more focus.. but they do not, because I don't think the game developers like or want it, they're more interested in things they consider cool. The focus is so much on horde races for cool, and this is because they've become use to doing so much on the horde, it feels odd for them to do anything meaningful or serious with night elves or any alliance centred race, even though they shouldn't be looking at it like that.

    The game faction splitting has warped a more realistic and meaningful portrayal of their world, and most newbies coming into development don't come with the dedicated history or knowledge, but wow's funny skew on thing, and they don't think much of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    After Legion the Kaldorei should be guarded for 2 or 3 expansions. But as they burned Teldrazzil now they will have to merge them in history until they take revenge. They forced themselves to write about the race that they did not want to write and not only that but almost all the attention ended there.
    I think the fans forced them. Night elves are very popular with a lot of fans, the uproar concerning abandoning the night elves was picked up by its fans.. initially it was all about how bad the horde looked, and they started addressing that, but night elf fans got really angry because they not only destroyed the race, but were more concerned about the horde looking bad than what had happened to the night elves... were recompensating the alliance via the humans and leaving the night elves dead in the water...

    their responses in interviews and livestreams came through.. it was only the fan questions flooding into the fan websites that forced the question to be asked and the uproar in the forums by the night elf fans.

    so they had to respond. I don't think Darkshore was initially planned as a warfront, and not in 8.1 anyway, the thing was rushed, and hasn't restored the night elves persay...

    but one thing is true, the night elves have been featuring consistently since legion. But it seems grudgingly, after such a masterpiece in the Legion alpha beta for Suramar and the Nighthold, Azsuna and Val'Sharah, the night elf focus greatly shifted when new stuff came in for 7.1 (the amended story) where Nightborne were distance from the night elves they were quite close, and in 7.2 where they were pretty much in the background on the broken shore. Where it was all about the legion, and while the setting showed some night elf lore, we saw no priesthood, no action from Suramar based on previous events, playing a role, no Elune sisters.. Illidan and Maiev did play a role, but it didn't feel consistent, and then Argus did not see a night elf /draenei partnership, night elves who's arch nemesis from the earlier story was the legion are not visible in the game.


    But then, the game only shows a certain perspective,, nothing is stopping someone from coming and reviewing the events, and writing a narrative that actually shows things we didn't see in game, that don't ret-con the game, but just come alongside the game showing a lot more from a more consistent perspective .

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    So Tyrande became Avatar of Vengeance
    And people kept telling her to not be Avatar of Vengeance
    And in Shadowlands everyone says Avatar of Vengeance is bad
    And she gets her ass kicked
    And now she doesn't wanna be Avatar of Vengeance anymore.

    Brilliant story.

    Also, isn't that the most patronizing thing that ever existed? Her entire race was reduced to 1/10th of the population, their lands razed, capital burned. Whatever blessings Teldrassil provided (it provided some, right) are now gone. And everyone is just telling Tyrande to chill out, geez, let bygones be bygones.
    It's tyrande, sh'es been awful for most of hte game.

    in fact hte only time Tyrande shines in a good way was WotA novel and WC3
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