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  1. #1
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

    65 killed in Gaza, 7 killed in Israel as UN warns conflict could turn into 'full-scale war'

    Discuss current conflict and past issues/topics.

    -snip- To keep the OP neutral/clean.

    OP Warnings: Due to the high tensions surrounding the conflict, OP warnings will be listed below.
    1) Refrain from nation bashing.Insulting the government or military is different from calling the entire populace terrorists or nazis.
    2) We're not going to debate the merits or encourage violence surrounding civilian casualties. Similar to nation bashing, keep commentary restricted to the military and leading bodies. But remember that egregious posts about violence aren't ever acceptable.
    3) Religion - Discussing the source and history of the conflict is fine, but religious bashing isn't.
    4) We're not debating the merits of an ethnostate, especially since the context here implies the removal or killing of people already within a nation. It can easily devolve into blatant racism. That includes trying to debate multi-culturalism.
    Last edited by Rozz; 2021-06-14 at 12:00 PM.

  2. #2
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Both sides are in the wrong.

    Arguing about who was "more wrong" or "wrong first" is pointless.

    About the only workable solution is to pick some convenient point in the past, such as the 1967 UN resolution borders. Revert everything to that status quo. And enforce it externally, penalizing whichever entity violates those terms. Right to national self defense, in this case, should end at their borders; if you feel a need to strike internally, appeal to the UN, or face sanctions.

    At this point, I've lost faith that it could ever be left up to those in the region to settle this in any non-genocidal manner, not without the rest of the world sitting on them both until they simmer down and give it up.

    A more ideal solution would be a united state, but I'm betting that'll just be more problematic to try and resolve. A two-state solution is simpler and doesn't really solve anything long-term; it's just sending them both to their metaphorical rooms to think about what they've done.


  3. #3
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    65 killed in Gaza, 7 killed in Israel as UN warns conflict could turn into 'full-scale war'

    Discuss current conflict and past issues/topics.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Was it in response to the Arab nations trying to "push Israel into the sea"?
    I'm backing Biden and Pelosi's current responses. It was measured, objectively true and not hysterical. Israel ultimately has a right and duty to protect its people; The Arabs are free to try and drive the Jews into the Mediterranean as they have been trying to do for a good long while. I hope the US stays largely out of it, except to prevent the UN from getting involved either since in 1948/49 the UN only cared when it became obvious the Israeli's were not going to get wiped out and the Arabs were facing a complete route. So I really wouldn't trust the UN as a fair arbitrator or actor, and neither is the US going to be kind to the Arabs. There is no fair arbitrator on that dispute.

    In general this is a conflict that really only concludes with one side forced to capitulate. That was how it went in 48/49 when the Arab world entirely vowed to annihilate that little state and its been true ever since then. Any foreign power that tries to involve itself there will simply be stuck in a quagmire and trapped in a forever war. Too many people are making wild nonsense comparisons, saying the Arabs are like Nazi's, or the Israeli's are out for child blood, or the Palestinians are like Native Americans or something, we are just foreigners spit balling their war and projecting our own hang ups and history there.

    So, good luck to all those in the region, good fortune, good health and may this resolve itself however it ultimately does.
    Last edited by Theodarzna; 2021-05-12 at 10:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  4. #4
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Was it in response to the Arab nations trying to "push Israel into the sea"?
    Using that war as a justification for the horrible shit the Israeli government (a far-right nationalist government, by any definition) and some of its citizens has done in the last week is just absurd. If we go by that logic, Israel can do anything it wants to any country in the Middle East and it's just "defending itself."
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
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  5. #5
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Before marriage I really had no skin in the game. In the past I’ve never been able to approach a perspective that doesn’t look like me taking sides and blaming another.

    It’s a thousands of years old blood hatred.
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  6. #6
    both sides need to deescalate from this, but shit like : https://twitter.com/kann_news/status...51091968040964 and the rocket barrage is just going to keep the stupidity going.

  7. #7
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    Before marriage I really had no skin in the game. In the past I’ve never been able to approach a perspective that doesn’t look like me taking sides and blaming another.

    It’s a thousands of years old blood hatred.
    I think there is nothing we as outsiders can really do that isn't just projecting our own hangups on a region that doesn't have much to do with ourselves. This isn't really our conflict or fight to be involved in and its not really reducible to a Good Guy v. Bad Guy conflict.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  8. #8
    I think this is a pretty darn good take on the issue.

  9. #9
    Brewmaster Barendon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    Using that war as a justification for the horrible shit the Israeli government (a far-right nationalist government, by any definition) and some of its citizens has done in the last week is just absurd. If we go by that logic, Israel can do anything it wants to any country in the Middle East and it's just "defending itself."
    That is not the reason for this current conflict.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    Before marriage I really had no skin in the game. In the past I’ve never been able to approach a perspective that doesn’t look like me taking sides and blaming another.

    It’s a thousands of years old blood hatred.
    Thousands of years of blood plus religion it's the convergence of all kinds of horrible.

  11. #11
    Brewmaster Barendon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Both sides are in the wrong.

    Arguing about who was "more wrong" or "wrong first" is pointless.

    About the only workable solution is to pick some convenient point in the past, such as the 1967 UN resolution borders. Revert everything to that status quo. And enforce it externally, penalizing whichever entity violates those terms. Right to national self defense, in this case, should end at their borders; if you feel a need to strike internally, appeal to the UN, or face sanctions.

    At this point, I've lost faith that it could ever be left up to those in the region to settle this in any non-genocidal manner, not without the rest of the world sitting on them both until they simmer down and give it up.

    A more ideal solution would be a united state, but I'm betting that'll just be more problematic to try and resolve. A two-state solution is simpler and doesn't really solve anything long-term; it's just sending them both to their metaphorical rooms to think about what they've done.
    That, unfortunately, won't work, unless you occupy both israeli and palestinian sides with an outside military force. Which won't happen. If this isn't settled the right way, it won't get settled at all.

  12. #12
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    All started because Isreal evicted a bunch of arabs in East-Jerusalem to make way for Isreali Settlers. And now they are killing dozens of people in Gaza.
    They are still the ones who keep sending settlers, turned Gaza into a open-air concentration camp, have a national holiday that celebrates the conquest of east-Jerusalem and who knows what else I forgot.


    Isreal is a fascist Apartheid state and so is anybody who still supports that shithole of a state.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Timmy still can get lunch, it's just not free.

  13. #13
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barendon View Post
    That, unfortunately, won't work, unless you occupy both israeli and palestinian sides with an outside military force. Which won't happen. If this isn't settled the right way, it won't get settled at all.
    There is no "right way".

    Israeli and Palestinian leadership's are both genocidal.

    The only alternative to genocide is intervention and control from without.


  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Barendon View Post
    That, unfortunately, won't work, unless you occupy both israeli and palestinian sides with an outside military force. Which won't happen. If this isn't settled the right way, it won't get settled at all.
    whats the right way? because it looks like neither side wants to talk.

    the situation in gaza and the west bank suits the powers there, and bibi has been pretending the occupation of the WB and the siege of gaza are fine for years, given how precarious his position is this will probably give him a mandate if he plays it right.

  15. #15
    I thought Jared fixed all that holy land stuff up? No?

  16. #16
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barendon View Post
    That is not the reason for this current conflict.
    Isn't the current conflict because that neighborhood had been bought by a Jew or a group of Jews back during Ottoman Imperial days, but then was occupied and annexed by Jordan and then things got messy because Arabs settled there, but when Israel won in 67' the land was returned and the owner wanted to evict them, but the courts said no, and they didn't want to pay rent and its all a big legal battle over title owner and rent payments due and somehow this has become "ITS A GENOCIDE!" or something. This is a wild conflict. As far as I can tell, the land was owned legally by a Jewish person before Israel even existed and the current Arabs there are the people given it by the Jordanians when they occupied that part of Jerusalem between 49-67.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  17. #17
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There is no "right way".

    Israeli and Palestinian leadership's are both genocidal.

    The only alternative to genocide is intervention and control from without.
    And one of those sides has 10.000x the power the other does, I think you can figure out which one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Timmy still can get lunch, it's just not free.

  18. #18
    Brewmaster Barendon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    whats the right way? because it looks like neither side wants to talk.

    the situation in gaza and the west bank suits the powers there, and bibi has been pretending the occupation of the WB and the siege of gaza are fine for years, given how precarious his position is this will probably give him a mandate if he plays it right.
    The change of mind need to come from the people, not their leaders. And it won't change, as long as there is bloodlust and hunger for land from both sides. Outside influence should start by growing trust. By changing people's minds. The leaders are in power because of the conflict, hence it won't change anytime soon.

  19. #19
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barendon View Post
    The change of mind need to come from the people, not their leaders. And it won't change, as long as there is bloodlust and hunger for land from both sides. Outside influence should start by growing trust. By changing people's minds. The leaders are in power because of the conflict, hence it won't change anytime soon.

    During all these decades, only 1 side has been the one that is actually been taking land. Turning this into a both sides issue is just idiotic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Timmy still can get lunch, it's just not free.

  20. #20
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barendon View Post
    That is not the reason for this current conflict.
    Excellent take, thanks for the info.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    both sides need to deescalate from this, but shit like : https://twitter.com/kann_news/status...51091968040964 and the rocket barrage is just going to keep the stupidity going.
    They both need to stop and there's no justification for the rocket barrage from Hamas. It's only going to lead to even more needless violence and the loss of life. It's still pretty sickening to see people react to the ethnic cleansing going on (like in the video you just shared) and the leveling of apartment buildings that kill families and children with "you know, it's just really complicated but Israel has a right to defend itself." That's just a shitty excuse to justify bombing entire neighborhoods with complete indifference.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

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