1. #2381
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Sure, but the US is never going to "abandon" Israel, and as a permanent member of the security council will continue to veto any potential condemnation/action against Israel.



    The entire rest of the world could come together in opposition/condemnation to Israel. And it wouldn't matter in the UN, especially regarding putting UN troops in Israel, because the US can simply veto anything they want as a permanent member.

    There have been missions to Israel in the past, but I don't think those are ever coming back. Things would have to get MUCH worse before that was even a possibility, sadly.
    They're never going to abandon Israel until they can't support it anymore. It's not a two way deal there, it's literally money and international reputation thrown in the bin again and again and again. There's very little for the US coming back in this deal.
    As it stands they can support it. They moment they have to make some cuts, who knows?

  2. #2382
    Quote Originally Posted by Cringefest View Post
    The reason why there is international condemnation of Israel's actions isn't hamas' doing. It's because if Israel's behaviour.

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    Yes but things are changing. The US is not going to be able to keep up for long against China, there might be a switch in international policies. Already now with the B3W, attention has moved to developing countries. The US will have to convince many Islamic countries to buy into their funding package, while also supporting Israel, who is needlessly slaughtering Muslims by the thousands.
    I don't know, the veto is definitely an issue now but as things change, well who knows.
    If Israel wasnt served blindly by the US the world would have probably agreed on massive sanctions and who knows what else.

    China has also increased their trade with Israel esponentially in the last few years, but they are pretty clear on where they stand on the Palestinian issue.
    Yes, but they also know how Israel would respond if you bombard them (as any country would respond anyway).

  3. #2383
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Yes, but they also know how Israel would respond if you bombard them (as any country would respond anyway).
    I don't think anybody is talking about having the UN, or other nations, bomb Israel that I've seen so far. Sending in UN peacekeepers/monitors is a very, very different thing.

  4. #2384
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Yes, but they also know how Israel would respond if you bombard them (as any country would respond anyway).
    No country would behave like Israel without consequences, so not really a good comparison.
    Also I'm not sure bombing things is a good solution.

  5. #2385
    Quote Originally Posted by Cringefest View Post
    Words--------->facts

    They allowed it to happen.

    Hold on, you approve of people marching chanting "death to Arabs" or "another nakba is coming"?
    Going to ask again - why they should not have allowed the march? Not like organizers said they would be screaming that. Not like Palestinian marches are different, just different slogans chanted. Either allow both or none.
    No, I do not approve. This is not kindergarden, do not try twisting what I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    Yeah, free speech .

    And more free speech. So democratic!

    even more free speech! much expression, wow.
    Cherry picking? Cool cool. I mean this can be done for every single issue around the world. Some cop will always attack someone, which you will equate to everyone doing that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logwyn View Post
    How long until the UN steps into and makes them stop.
    Lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  6. #2386
    Quote Originally Posted by Cringefest View Post
    No country would behave like Israel without consequences, so not really a good comparison.
    Also I'm not sure bombing things is a good solution.
    So what would you do if you were the leader of Israël or any country ? Allow your population to get bombed and say: I am cool with it ?

  7. #2387
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Going to ask again - why they should not have allowed the march? Not like organizers said they would be screaming that. Not like Palestinian marches are different, just different slogans chanted. Either allow both or none.
    No, I do not approve. This is not kindergarden, do not try twisting what I said.



    Cherry picking? Cool cool. I mean this can be done for every single issue around the world. Some cop will always attack someone, which you will equate to everyone doing that.



    Lol.
    Easo, honestly you wouldn't ask that question if you knew a bit more about the participant. This wasn't a family party. Come on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    So what would you do if you were the leader of Israël or any country ? Allow your population to get bombed and say: I am cool with it ?
    Any other country would probably try to prevent it, or stop it. Israel as it is now, would most likely launch several nuclear bombs.

  8. #2388
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    So what would you do if you were the leader of Israël or any country ? Allow your population to get bombed and say: I am cool with it ?
    Maybe question why at this point your even facing internal conflict that has "shocked Israeli's" who thought that they had a good relationship with there Arab neighbours? You know if Israel was a person I would strongly suggest therapy because clearly there is a strong lack of reflection on the consequences his or her actions. I'm kind of imagining Lucifer (from the TV show) who goes to therapy and does the exact opposite of what Linda tells him

    And you know even if no US politician/president will openly say so we can read between the lines of who is mostly responsible for ongoing conflict.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7319956.html

    “Surely Israelis and Palestinians will be better off if Palestinians reject incitement and recognize the legitimacy of Israel," he said on Tuesday.

    "But Israel must recognise that it cannot permanently occupy and settle Palestinian land."
    These two lines about both sides are not equal, from the Palestinian side Hamas (as a example) already acknowledges that the Israel is here to stay while Israel has never really wanted peace and find's the current status quo more than fine.

  9. #2389
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Maybe question why at this point your even facing internal conflict that has "shocked Israeli's" who thought that they had a good relationship with there Arab neighbours? You know if Israel was a person I would strongly suggest therapy because clearly there is a strong lack of reflection on the consequences his or her actions. I'm kind of imagining Lucifer (from the TV show) who goes to therapy and does the exact opposite of what Linda tells him

    And you know even if no US politician/president will openly say so we can read between the lines of who is mostly responsible for ongoing conflict.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7319956.html



    These two lines about both sides are not equal, from the Palestinian side Hamas (as a example) already acknowledges that the Israel is here to stay while Israel has never really wanted peace and find's the current status quo more than fine.
    And yet Hamas is still bombing Israel. Way to show them that they are there to stay.

  10. #2390
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    And yet Hamas is still bombing Israel. Way to show them that they are there to stay.
    You don't HAVE to reply all the times you know. If you have nothing to say just scroll and move on?

  11. #2391
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    And yet Hamas is still bombing Israel. Way to show them that they are there to stay.
    And Israel has still put up a blockade even before Hamas started any kind of bombing.....way to show that you want peace.
    I mean I can't fault Hamas or any other Palestinian (especially if they are living in Gaza) for not going the Gandhi way because
    1) non of us has ever lived in a situation where mulitply generations of your family suffered the actions where they got kicked out of there homes
    2) and when it looked like you got some sort of control (Gaza) right the power that occupied you decided that they didn't like your choice and put up a blockade.

    I mean we can go on who is at fault and run in circles but then I don't think that the Israeli side really minds this kind of discussions because that allows them to keep the status qua going for another decade or two.

  12. #2392
    Quote Originally Posted by Cringefest View Post
    You don't HAVE to reply all the times you know. If you have nothing to say just scroll and move on?
    Way to look into the mirror, buddy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    And Israel has still put up a blockade even before Hamas started any kind of bombing.....way to show that you want peace.
    I mean I can't fault Hamas or any other Palestinian (especially if they are living in Gaza) for not going the Gandhi way because
    1) non of us has ever lived in a situation where mulitply generations of your family suffered the actions where they got kicked out of there homes
    2) and when it looked like you got some sort of control (Gaza) right the power that occupied you decided that they didn't like your choice and put up a blockade.

    I mean we can go on who is at fault and run in circles but then I don't think that the Israeli side really minds this kind of discussions because that allows them to keep the status qua going for another decade or two.
    Can't really blame Israel either for bombing back those that send rockets at civilian areas with the goal of hurting civilians.

  13. #2393
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Way to look into the mirror, buddy.

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    Can't really blame Israel either for bombing back those that send rockets at civilian areas with the goal of hurting civilians.
    You're not engaging with context at all, you're just saying basic stuff. You're not really interested in having a discussion, you just want to waste people's time is all.

  14. #2394
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    And Israel has still put up a blockade even before Hamas started any kind of bombing.....way to show that you want peace.
    I mean I can't fault Hamas or any other Palestinian (especially if they are living in Gaza) for not going the Gandhi way because
    1) non of us has ever lived in a situation where mulitply generations of your family suffered the actions where they got kicked out of there homes
    2) and when it looked like you got some sort of control (Gaza) right the power that occupied you decided that they didn't like your choice and put up a blockade.

    I mean we can go on who is at fault and run in circles but then I don't think that the Israeli side really minds this kind of discussions because that allows them to keep the status qua going for another decade or two.
    What one needs to do in conflicts like these is not fall into the trap that individualism suddenly disappears and that all stand in line, this entire issue is a controversial one even in Israel among Israelis.

    The blame game is only useful to see who did what when, or who started the latest incident. A solution wont come from appointing blame and neither will a solution come from the extremists on either side.

    The dangerous part about thinking that maintaining the Status Quo and the constant efforts as occupier to take land from the occupied is that it works for now, it does not work in the long game. Hamas is larger than the Gaza strip and for the first time we have also seen violence spread to other regions more and more, history has shown us that occupier might win the overall battles in this war but they will never fully secure a victory as more civilian unrest and violence unfolds over the region and beyond. Remember that even as far as in Belgium the Jewish neighborhood needs extra protection from terrorist attacks and that these terrorists are inspired by PR campaigns using the Israeli government actions as fuel.

    Weapons continue to evolve and become ever more available, the idea that a terrorist group would get a dirty bomb was unthinkable a few decades ago, now it is easily within reach. Those are things to consider, nobody really wins here.
    “My philosophy is: It’s none of my business what people say of me and think of me. I am what I am and I do what I do. I expect nothing and accept everything. And it makes life so much easier.
    ― Anthony Hopkins

  15. #2395
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    What one needs to do in conflicts like these is not fall into the trap that individualism suddenly disappears and that all stand in line, this entire issue is a controversial one even in Israel among Israelis.

    The blame game is only useful to see who did what when, or who started the latest incident. A solution wont come from appointing blame and neither will a solution come from the extremists on either side.

    The dangerous part about thinking that maintaining the Status Quo and the constant efforts as occupier to take land from the occupied is that it works for now, it does not work in the long game. Hamas is larger than the Gaza strip and for the first time we have also seen violence spread to other regions more and more, history has shown us that occupier might win the overall battles in this war but they will never fully secure a victory as more civilian unrest and violence unfolds over the region and beyond. Remember that even as far as in Belgium the Jewish neighborhood needs extra protection from terrorist attacks and that these terrorists are inspired by PR campaigns using the Israeli government actions as fuel.

    Weapons continue to evolve and become ever more available, the idea that a terrorist group would get a dirty bomb was unthinkable a few decades ago, now it is easily within reach. Those are things to consider, nobody really wins here.
    Once again, Hamas has little reach outside their local community. What you're describing there is a natural reaction to Israeli policies and, even most importantly, the complete absence of international control. We're very vocal when we want to be. The silence on this specific topic is frustrating to some.
    Simply put, get Israel to drop the extremism, and these events you described will be less common.

  16. #2396
    Quote Originally Posted by Cringefest View Post
    Once again, Hamas has little reach outside their local community. What you're describing there is a natural reaction to Israeli policies and, even most importantly, the complete absence of international control. We're very vocal when we want to be. The silence on this specific topic is frustrating to some.
    Simply put, get Israel to drop the extremism, and these events you described will be less common.
    And you dare talk about not talking the context into account xD.

  17. #2397
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    And you dare talk about not talking the context into account xD.
    Whatever it is that you're trying to go for isn't working today buddy. You can't write things at random and hope they stick.

  18. #2398
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    What one needs to do in conflicts like these is not fall into the trap that individualism suddenly disappears and that all stand in line, this entire issue is a controversial one even in Israel among Israelis.

    The blame game is only useful to see who did what when, or who started the latest incident. A solution wont come from appointing blame and neither will a solution come from the extremists on either side.

    The dangerous part about thinking that maintaining the Status Quo and the constant efforts as occupier to take land from the occupied is that it works for now, it does not work in the long game. Hamas is larger than the Gaza strip and for the first time we have also seen violence spread to other regions more and more, history has shown us that occupier might win the overall battles in this war but they will never fully secure a victory as more civilian unrest and violence unfolds over the region and beyond. Remember that even as far as in Belgium the Jewish neighborhood needs extra protection from terrorist attacks and that these terrorists are inspired by PR campaigns using the Israeli government actions as fuel.

    Weapons continue to evolve and become ever more available, the idea that a terrorist group would get a dirty bomb was unthinkable a few decades ago, now it is easily within reach. Those are things to consider, nobody really wins here.

    Maybe but that is not how the Israeli right wing (majority of the country) sees this.
    For the right-wing in Israel the solution will having the apartheid state as it is now or make the Palestinians so miserable that they leave the country or move to area's that Jewish settlers don't really care about. Doesn't matter that in 30 years time nothing changes, what do they care if they have some bad PR.

    The fact that Hamas is kind of doing guerrilla warfare doesn't matter because unlike the the Vietcong the damage that Hamas is doing is much less painful. Until the damage of the ongoing conflict exceeds the damage of a peace deal Israel will keep the current status quo because Israel doesn't really gain anything from peace, every few years a couple of death civilians means nothing if a peace deal means going back the 67 borders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Way to look into the mirror, buddy.

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    Can't really blame Israel either for bombing back those that send rockets at civilian areas with the goal of hurting civilians.
    You can blame Israel for creating the situation where people felt to need to bomb.
    But then again, this is my point. The Pro Israëli side is happy to keep talking about who started what conflict because this allows them to control the conversation without ever having to acknowledge that Israel does not or has ever wanted peace.

  19. #2399
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Maybe but that is not how the Israeli right wing (majority of the country) sees this.
    For the right-wing in Israel the solution will having the apartheid state as it is now or make the Palestinians so miserable that they leave the country or move to area's that Jewish settlers don't really care about. Doesn't matter that in 30 years time nothing changes, what do they care if they have some bad PR.

    The fact that Hamas is kind of doing guerrilla warfare doesn't matter because unlike the the Vietcong the damage that Hamas is doing is much less painful. Until the damage of the ongoing conflict exceeds the damage of a peace deal Israel will keep the current status quo because Israel doesn't really gain anything from peace, every few years a couple of death civilians means nothing if a peace deal means going back the 67 borders.

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    You can blame Israel for creating the situation where people felt to need to bomb.
    But then again, this is my point. The Pro israeli side is happy to keep talking about who started what conflict because this allows them to control the conversation without ever having to acknowledge that Isarel does not or has ever wanted peace.
    Absolutely, one thing to remember is that Israel keeps on building on occupied land. If they agreed to a two state solution, they would have to remove some illegal settlements, which will spark really high tension if not civil war, guaranteed.

  20. #2400
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    You can blame Israel for creating the situation where people felt to need to bomb.
    Hamas is a ultra-nationalist terrorist group that aims to achieve their goals through violence. "People"? It's not people, it's a group of scumbags that took over Gaza, literally killed the opposition and installed their reign of terror there. The "feel the need" to bomb always, just like they did all the way since 1990s, EVEN at height of Oslo Accords, when there was no blockade and no nothing. All their bus bombings in Israel, despite left-wing government and PA pushing for peace solution and normalization.

    So don't sell me that crap of "people felt the need to bomb", because guess what Israelis feel the need to defend then and feel the need not to allow the enemy to rearm and rebuild their bunkers and tunnels.

    And as I said, I don't mind it. If they want to dance, we can dance. I don't mind it one bit, the time is on our side.

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