1. #2401
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Hamas is a ultra-nationalist terrorist group that aims to achieve their goals through violence. "People"? It's not people, it's a group of scumbags that took over Gaza, literally killed the opposition and installed their reign of terror there. The "feel the need" to bomb always, just like they did all the way since 1990s, EVEN at height of Oslo Accords, when there was no blockade and no nothing. All their bus bombings in Israel, despite left-wing government and PA pushing for peace solution and normalization.

    So don't sell me that crap of "people felt the need to bomb", because guess what Israelis feel the need to defend then and feel the need not to allow the enemy to rearm and rebuild their bunkers and tunnels.

    And as I said, I don't mind it. If they want to dance, we can dance. I don't mind it one bit, the time is on our side.
    This is pure revisionism you're engaging in. No Israeli prime minister has ever engaged in a two state solution in constructive way, simply because they've always been expanding, illegally, into occupied territory and involved in military occupation.

  2. #2402
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cringefest View Post
    This is pure revisionism you're engaging in. No Israeli prime minister has ever engaged in a two state solution in constructive way, simply because they've always been expanding, illegally, into occupied territory and involved in military occupation.
    I think Yitzhak Rabin legitimately worked towards a solution and I don't think it's fair to say he was acting in bad faith. The problem was he was assassinated by a far-right, pro-settler lunatic before the ink dried on any of the agreements.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
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  3. #2403
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    I think Yitzhak Rabin legitimately worked towards a solution and I don't think it's fair to say he was acting in bad faith. The problem was he was assassinated by a far-right, pro-settler lunatic before the ink dried on any of the agreements.
    Maybe he might have been the single exception in terms of leadership and yet the fact that Israel citizens decided to vote in right-wingers who have no intrest in peace is a bit telling isn't it?

    I honestly don't think much would have changed overall, maybe the overal timeline of events but that's about it. Israel left Gaza for example but they never abandoned Gaza.

  4. #2404
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Maybe he might have been the single exception in terms of leadership and yet the fact that Israel citizens decided to vote in right-wingers who have no intrest in peace is a bit telling isn't it?

    I honestly don't think much would have changed overall, maybe the overal timeline of events but that's about it. Israel left Gaza for example but they never abandoned Gaza.
    The Israeli people voted right because left did not work out.

    Oslo accords were a huge hope and there was a big legitimate peace push both from Israel and Palestinian side, but then 1994 and so on came with Hamas blowing up buses in Israel one after another with dozens of victims each time.

    So whatever left intended simply did not work and people voted right. You can't really keep rule when you can't guarantee basic safety for citizens. Big shock there.


    I have always said and will keep saying that Hamas is a blessing for right parties. Hamas just keep delivering the government to the right on a silver platter with their bullshit.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2021-06-17 at 12:03 PM.

  5. #2405
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    The Israeli people voted right because left did not work out.

    Oslo accords were a huge hope and there was a big legitimate peace push both from Israel and Palestinian side, but then 1994 and so on came with Hamas blowing up busses in Israel one after another with dozens of victims each time.

    So whatever left intended simply did not work and people voted right. You can't really keep rule when you can't guarantee basic safety for citizens. Big shock there.
    Israeli people were pushed to the right because no peace is better for Israel. The one land one country plan can only become reality through illegal annexation and confusion. Otherwise you'd have to divide your holy piece of shitty land with filthy Arabs. Imagine that am I right?

  6. #2406
    Quote Originally Posted by Cringefest View Post
    Israeli people were pushed to the right because no peace is better for Israel. The one land one country plan can only become reality through illegal annexation and confusion. Otherwise you'd have to divide your holy piece of shitty land with filthy Arabs. Imagine that am I right?
    So who is not taking the context into account and not contributing to the discussion ? Remind me again ?

    That situation is very complex and can't be solved in a few months or even a few years. Now, there is too much hatred on both sides. Something external like the UN could do something but it would be very hard to not paint that as a loss for Israel.

  7. #2407
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    The Israeli people voted right because left did not work out.

    Oslo accords were a huge hope and there was a big legitimate peace push both from Israel and Palestinian side, but then 1994 and so on came with Hamas blowing up buses in Israel one after another with dozens of victims each time.

    So whatever left intended simply did not work and people voted right. You can't really keep rule when you can't guarantee basic safety for citizens. Big shock there.


    I have always said and will keep saying that Hamas is a blessing for right parties. Hamas just keep delivering the government to the right on a silver platter with their bullshit.
    Lets keep it simple instead of arguing the same nonesens for another 40 years of who is more violent.

    What has Israel to gain from having having a functioning sovereign Palestinian state based on 67 borders? Please just answer this question.

  8. #2408
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    So what would you do if you were the leader of Israël or any country ? Allow your population to get bombed and say: I am cool with it ?
    Should probably give back all of the land they stole in the first fucking place.

  9. #2409
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    So who is not taking the context into account and not contributing to the discussion ? Remind me again ?

    That situation is very complex and can't be solved in a few months or even a few years. Now, there is too much hatred on both sides. Something external like the UN could do something but it would be very hard to not paint that as a loss for Israel.
    Honestly I don't really think it's all that complex.
    Armenia vs Azerbaijan or India vs Pakistan is complex because we are dealing with centuries of changing borders and immigration that resulted in a major conflict which was never really resolved.
    NK vs SK is a complex situation because one side would never give up there power while the citizens in large would probably die for there leader.
    China vs Taiwan is a complex situation


    Israel vs Palestine is kind of easy at this point. I mean we could make it more complex the moment we discuss if the borders should be based on 48 and what to do with the millions of refugees but for the latter at least it really hasn't ever come that far.

  10. #2410
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    Should probably give back all of the land they stole in the first fucking place.
    Unfortunately, it is too symbolic for Israel (and it would be painted as a huge victory by Hamas & Co), so it will not happen most probably.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Honestly I don't really think it's all that complex.
    Armenia vs Azerbaijan or India vs Pakistan is complex because we are dealing with centuries of changing borders and immigration that resulted in a major conflict which was never really resolved.
    NK vs SK is a complex situation because one side would never give up there power while the citizens in large would probably die for there leader.
    China vs Taiwan is a complex situation


    Israel vs Palestine is kind of easy at this point. I mean we could make it more complex the moment we discuss if the borders should be based on 48 and what to do with the millions of refugees but for the latter at least it really hasn't ever come that far.
    Someone saying that a geopolitical situation is "simple" has really no business discussing it.

  11. #2411
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    What has Israel to gain from having having a functioning sovereign Palestinian state based on 67 borders? Please just answer this question.
    What kind of question is that? Normalization with all Arab states, immense wealth from tech contracts, trade and new trade routes.

    You realize that UAE normalization alone brought several billion USD of deals right off the bat, including UAE oil routing project through Israeli pipeline and ports to Europe, pipeline and all. Then of course we're open to do business in Dubai, a business hub of Middle East. That's just one country out of potential dozens.

    Now the fun part, of course, that it did not even require anything with Palestinians, because quite frankly everyone tired of their bullshit here including a good chunk their Arab brothers and Arab counties really want to benefit from Israeli tech including desalination, chemo-pharmaceutical, and defense industry.

    But if there would be a full normalization including state - it is without a doubt would proper the already solid Israel's economy to the moon, because there would be a genuine gold rush after our considerable tech sector.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2021-06-17 at 12:22 PM.

  12. #2412
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    So who is not taking the context into account and not contributing to the discussion ? Remind me again ?

    That situation is very complex and can't be solved in a few months or even a few years. Now, there is too much hatred on both sides. Something external like the UN could do something but it would be very hard to not paint that as a loss for Israel.
    You are, with your shallow statements like the one above. Happy to help.

  13. #2413
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Cherry picking? Cool cool. I mean this can be done for every single issue around the world. Some cop will always attack someone, which you will equate to everyone doing that.
    Is this the bad apple platitude I'm hearing? And get out of here with that cherry picking shit, we're talking about basic human rights. You either have the ability to express dissent and counter protest or you don't. 2/10 evasion, please put some effort in next time.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  14. #2414
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    What kind of question is that? Normalization with all Arab states, immense wealth from tech contracts, trade and new trade routes.

    You realize that UAE normalization alone brought several billion USD of deals right off the bat, including UAE oil routing project through Israeli pipeline and ports to Europe, pipeline and all. Then of course we're open to do business in Dubai, a business hub of Middle East. That's just one country out of potential dozens.

    Now the fun part, of course, that it did not even require anything with Palestinians, because quite frankly everyone tired of their bullshit here including a good chunk their Arab brothers and Arab counties really want to benefit from Israeli tech including desalination, chemo-pharmaceutical, and defense industry.

    But if there would be a full normalization including state - it is without a doubt would proper the already solid Israel's economy to the moon, because there would be a genuine gold rush after our considerable tech sector.
    I am guessing Israel could move toward the two states solution if they had solid guaranties about economic opportunities. But I think they would still be a backlash in the public opinion.

  15. #2415
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Honestly I don't really think it's all that complex.
    Armenia vs Azerbaijan or India vs Pakistan is complex because we are dealing with centuries of changing borders and immigration that resulted in a major conflict which was never really resolved.
    NK vs SK is a complex situation because one side would never give up there power while the citizens in large would probably die for there leader.
    China vs Taiwan is a complex situation


    Israel vs Palestine is kind of easy at this point. I mean we could make it more complex the moment we discuss if the borders should be based on 48 and what to do with the millions of refugees but for the latter at least it really hasn't ever come that far.
    Of course it isn't. It's not the end of the world. Israel isn't unique. There are precedents of similar situations being resolved diplomatically. Northern Ireland for example. All that's needed is political will, which Israel had abandoned in order to find support in extremism.

    The situation can become more complex as right wing extremists and settlers keep being allowed to do as they please. At the end of the day it'll all fall back on moderate Israelis.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    What kind of question is that? Normalization with all Arab states, immense wealth from tech contracts, trade and new trade routes.

    You realize that UAE normalization alone brought several billion USD of deals right off the bat, including UAE oil routing project through Israeli pipeline and ports to Europe, pipeline and all. Then of course we're open to do business in Dubai, a business hub of Middle East. That's just one country out of potential dozens.

    Now the fun part, of course, that it did not even require anything with Palestinians, because quite frankly everyone tired of their bullshit here including a good chunk their Arab brothers and Arab counties really want to benefit from Israeli tech including desalination, chemo-pharmaceutical, and defense industry.

    But if there would be a full normalization including state - it is without a doubt would proper the already solid Israel's economy to the moon, because there would be a genuine gold rush after our considerable tech sector.
    Once the settlers' revolts have been quelled of course

  16. #2416
    Quote Originally Posted by Cringefest View Post
    Of course it isn't. It's not the end of the world. Israel isn't unique. There are precedents of similar situations being resolved diplomatically. Northern Ireland for example. All that's needed is political will, which Israel had abandoned in order to find support in extremism.

    The situation can become more complex as right wing extremists and settlers keep being allowed to do as they please. At the end of the day it'll all fall back on moderate Israelis.
    You do realize that the IRA stops the armed fight and moved to politics before anything could be achieved ? Hamas is far from doing that.
    Last edited by Specialka; 2021-06-17 at 12:33 PM.

  17. #2417
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    I am guessing Israel could move toward the two states solution if they had solid guaranties about economic opportunities. But I think they would still be a backlash in the public opinion.
    I believe that two-state solution is a correct solution. Problem is as long as Hamas intends to try to push through with violence it simply won't happen, it's the reality. There is no way in hell you can make peace facing government under fire, because there simply won't be votes for it.

    For this to happen you'd need Yesh Atid, Labour, Meretz and 2 other parties at least to have a solid 70 seats majority in the parliament AND you'd need to have actual credible leadership PA-side with actual willingness to do that. There is just no way anything like this happens in the next decade, especially not if Hamas continues with its bullshit, which it will - they did so in much better days, don't see them becoming peace doves, Arafat style.


    ---


    Practically, I see there is IRA talk... Well they have to do just that. Arafat too was a leading PLO that committed terrorist acts just fine including murder of Israeli Olympics teams. And yet at some point he made a decision to renounce violence and lo and hello - Oslo accords happened.

    If Hamas would do a similar step in good faith, this could happen again in time. But if they won't, well, things won't change.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2021-06-17 at 12:36 PM.

  18. #2418
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Maybe he might have been the single exception in terms of leadership and yet the fact that Israel citizens decided to vote in right-wingers who have no intrest in peace is a bit telling isn't it?

    I honestly don't think much would have changed overall, maybe the overal timeline of events but that's about it. Israel left Gaza for example but they never abandoned Gaza.
    No arguments there. It's the far-right settler ideology that has infested Israeli politics that makes any sort of future agreements impossible. We can sit here and blame Hamas for everything, they're an easy scapegoat. But in order for there to be a real solution, Israel would have to give up areas it doesn't want to give up. Any politician willing to entertain that fact in a meaningful way will have attempts on their life. That's just reality.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  19. #2419
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    No arguments there. It's the far-right settler ideology that has infested Israeli politics that makes any sort of future agreements impossible. We can sit here and blame Hamas for everything, they're an easy scapegoat. But in order for there to be a real solution, Israel would have to give up areas it doesn't want to give up. Any politician willing to entertain that fact in a meaningful way will have attempts on their life. That's just reality.
    That's just BS, really. Even as close as 2002 there were some very big agreements and concessions on the table. Things just did not go through.

    This "blah blah right something something infected" is really a bunch of BS - if there would be a real, credible chance at peace with a partner on the other side - then Israeli citizens would vote for it, just like we did numerous times already. But if there is none and only something like Hamas playing the field, then that's the votes you get.

    It's not some "turn another cheek" nonsense. People are people and we vote for personal security first and foremost.

    To have peace accords, you need people in Israel to vote for it, but you won't get this when you have what amounts to a war in the south.

  20. #2420
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    What kind of question is that? Normalization with all Arab states, immense wealth from tech contracts, trade and new trade routes.

    You realize that UAE normalization alone brought several billion USD of deals right off the bat, including UAE oil routing project through Israeli pipeline and ports to Europe, pipeline and all. Then of course we're open to do business in Dubai, a business hub of Middle East. That's just one country out of potential dozens.

    Now the fun part, of course, that it did not even require anything with Palestinians, because quite frankly everyone tired of their bullshit here including a good chunk their Arab brothers and Arab counties really want to benefit from Israeli tech including desalination, chemo-pharmaceutical, and defense industry.

    But if there would be a full normalization including state - it is without a doubt would proper the already solid Israel's economy to the moon, because there would be a genuine gold rush after our considerable tech sector.
    Sorry but you really didn't answer the question...does that mean that you can not answer this question? Is this a admit of defeat is that why your avoiding the question?
    I'm emphasising functioning sovereign Palestinian state for a good reason and yet go to the UAE deal which really wasn't that of a achievement.

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