1. #2421
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Sorry but you really didn't answer the question...does that mean that you can not answer this question? Is this a admit of defeat is that why your avoiding the question?
    I'm emphasising functioning sovereign Palestinian state for a good reason and yet go to the UAE deal which really wasn't that of a achievement.
    I answered the question. It's is simply as much as that - normalization and financial ties, trade and other benefits with about 3 dozens of countries.

    If you want to twist that answer with your silly ass agendas, it's on you. Does not change the realities above.

  2. #2422
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    You do realize that the IRA stops the armed fight and moved to politics before anything could be achieved ? Hamas is far from doing that.
    No it's not. Hamas could be led towards that process, as they showed by agreeing to participate in diplomacy also involving a two state solution. This has been linked several times in this thread. Problem is that, being the result of armed rebellion and extremism, they tend to respond to your expansion and military occupation with weapons.

    They even stopped rockets just before operation Cast Lead. The result was, yeah Cast Lead. Good job!

    You guys could write a book on how to make a shitty situation worse. It'll come back on you though. Let's start by the pretext that no, you will not be allowed to conquer all of the land ok? That's simply never going to happen unless you slaughter every man, woman and child. Which btw wouldn't surprise me.
    Eventually you will be asked to destroy illegal settlements. Settlements inhabited by settlers, which will not agree to the destruction of their own homes and rip you guys an new arsehole.

    Working towards a solution is in your own interest.
    Last edited by Cringefest; 2021-06-17 at 12:48 PM.

  3. #2423
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Unfortunately, it is too symbolic for Israel (and it would be painted as a huge victory by Hamas & Co), so it will not happen most probably.

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    Someone saying that a geopolitical situation is "simple" has really no business discussing it.
    It's only as complex you want to make it out to be.
    Again if we discuss the right of return that will be a complex issue because thanks to decades worth of inaction we are talking about millions of people that will never be allowed to return to there original homes.

    Other then that, is it really that hard to say "lets have talks, we promise that we aren't evicting people from there homes or building new settlements".

  4. #2424
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I believe that two-state solution is a correct solution. Problem is as long as Hamas intends to try to push through with violence it simply won't happen, it's the reality. There is no way in hell you can make peace facing government under fire, because there simply won't be votes for it.

    For this to happen you'd need Yesh Atid, Labour, Meretz and 2 other parties at least to have a solid 70 seats majority in the parliament AND you'd need to have actual credible leadership PA-side with actual willingness to do that. There is just no way anything like this happens in the next decade, especially not if Hamas continues with its bullshit, which it will - they did so in much better days, don't see them becoming peace doves, Arafat style.


    ---


    Practically, I see there is IRA talk... Well they have to do just that. Arafat too was a leading PLO that committed terrorist acts just fine including murder of Israeli Olympics teams. And yet at some point he made a decision to renounce violence and lo and hello - Oslo accords happened.

    If Hamas would do a similar step in good faith, this could happen again in time. But if they won't, well, things won't change.
    Hamas agreed to work towards a two state solution. They even stopped throwing rockets. Your government is simply not interest in a two state solution cause there's more to gain through illegal expansion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    It's only as complex you want to make it out to be.
    Again if we discuss the right of return that will be a complex issue because thanks to decades worth of inaction we are talking about millions of people that will never be allowed to return to there original homes.

    Other then that, is it really that hard to say "lets have talks, we promise that we aren't evicting people from there homes or building new settlements".
    It really isn't. The "complex" thing is often just a smoke screen.

  5. #2425
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Other then that, is it really that hard to say "lets have talks, we promise that we aren't evicting people from there homes or building new settlements".
    Ever heard of something called Democracy?

    Because that's how it works. Our citizens don't want to say that while Hamas is around and does what it does and as such majority of votes now is against saying that.

    Get back to us when you don't have Hamas launching various kinds of missiles over the border maybe then you'd have votes for talks.


    Right now in coalition there is about 38-ish members that potentially can accept talks, you need a solid majority 61+. Not happening as long as there are balloons, rockets and other shit like that, because we aren't some sort of saints that vote for "turning other cheek" - it's simple people voting for simple things like security and not dealing with terrorists.

    Now if we'd have several years of complete silence and people get some time to chill, you'd might see better votes for that cause in next elections, but while Hamas keeps up their shit - it won't happen and there won't be anything.


    And yes, just like IRA people invoke here - they have to make the first step and renounce violence, just like Arafat and PLO did - then things will happen. Until then - dream on.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2021-06-17 at 12:58 PM.

  6. #2426
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Ever heard of something called Democracy?

    Because that's how it works. Our citizens don't want to say that while Hamas is around and does what it does and as such majority of votes now is against saying that.

    Get back to us when you don't have Hamas launching various kinds of missiles over the border maybe then you'd have votes for talks.


    Right now in coalition there is about 38-ish members that potentially can accept talks, you need a solid majority 61+. Not happening as long as there are balloons, rockets and other shit like that, because we aren't some sort of saints that vote for "turning other cheek" - it's simple people voting for simple things like security and not dealing with terrorists.

    Now if we'd have several years of complete silence and people get some time to chill, you'd might see better votes for that cause in next elections, but while Hamas keeps up their shit - it won't happen and there won't be anything.
    Enjoy your future civil war then!

  7. #2427
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Do not ever expect Hamas to be serious about a political avenue, they backed themselves in a corner on that and even if they wanted to i doubt that they have a hold of all their militant members to force an actual cease fire, have not seen that working in the last decade for longer than a week.

    You best bet is people who moved out of the gaza strip and into other places, those people or their offspring joining into politics that is how you will get more arabs from a non jewish background in politics and that is when you will see change happening, but even with that happening today it is going to take a long time as people on both sides are continuously stoking the fire and as Gaidax said at the end of the day if you have to vote you vote for your security first and your ideologies second.
    “My philosophy is: It’s none of my business what people say of me and think of me. I am what I am and I do what I do. I expect nothing and accept everything. And it makes life so much easier.
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  8. #2428
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Do not ever expect Hamas to be serious about a political avenue, they backed themselves in a corner on that and even if they wanted to i doubt that they have a hold of all their militant members to force an actual cease fire, have not seen that working in the last decade for longer than a week.

    You best bet is people who moved out of the gaza strip and into other places, those people or their offspring joining into politics that is how you will get more arabs from a non jewish background in politics and that is when you will see change happening, but even with that happening today it is going to take a long time as people on both sides are continuously stoking the fire and as Gaidax said at the end of the day if you have to vote you vote for your security first and your ideologies second.
    Hamas has already agreed to move towards diplomacy before. Israel isn't voting for security. In fact, they're building their huge domed tomb. There is absolutely no way that what they're doing now will bring long lasting peace.

  9. #2429
    lol, next gaidax' proposal: stop the hunger in the world by asking the poors to stop to starve.
    12/6/2009 -23/11/2020 rip little deathstalker Ferretti. proud forsaken, enemy of the livings

  10. #2430
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    lol, next gaidax' proposal: stop the hunger in the world by asking the poors to stop to starve.
    Let's eat the poor!

  11. #2431
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    lol, next gaidax' proposal: stop the hunger in the world by asking the poors to stop to starve.
    Yes, because clearly asking US and EU recognized terrorist organization to stop chucking missiles and incendiary balloons over the border and renounce violence is too much to ask for.

    People like you who practically try to whitewash Hamas is a big reason why they are encouraged to continue and chiefly fuck over Palestinians first and foremost.

    But as I said, if you want them to continue, then really fine by me. I don't really care, it's not my priority in life at all.

  12. #2432
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Yes, because clearly asking US and EU recognized terrorist organization to stop chucking missiles and incendiary balloons over the border and renounce violence is too much to ask for.

    People like you who practically try to whitewash Hamas is a big reason why they are encouraged to continue and chiefly fuck over Palestinians first and foremost.

    But as I said, if you want them to continue, then really fine by me. I don't really care, it's not my priority in life at all.
    It is your priority. You live in the country. Are you not interested in a long term solution?

  13. #2433
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cringefest View Post
    Hamas has already agreed to move towards diplomacy before. Israel isn't voting for security. In fact, they're building their huge domed tomb. There is absolutely no way that what they're doing now will bring long lasting peace.
    Let's also recall that the Israeli government helped create Hamas, specifically to cause chaos within Palestine and act as a counterweight to the secular and more-left-wing PLO. Hamas' violence is not a bug, for Israel. It's a feature.

    https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/...tine-conflict/
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847

  14. #2434
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Yes, because clearly asking US and EU recognized terrorist organization to stop chucking missiles and incendiary balloons over the border and renounce violence is too much to ask for.

    I don't really care...
    Don’t worry, Israel keeps it up and they’ll be called out eventually. And you obviously do care. Just like every teenager who dramatically declares they don’t care, it’s obvious you care quite a bit.

  15. #2435
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    That's just BS, really. Even as close as 2002 there were some very big agreements and concessions on the table. Things just did not go through.

    This "blah blah right something something infected" is really a bunch of BS - if there would be a real, credible chance at peace with a partner on the other side - then Israeli citizens would vote for it, just like we did numerous times already. But if there is none and only something like Hamas playing the field, then that's the votes you get.

    It's not some "turn another cheek" nonsense. People are people and we vote for personal security first and foremost.

    To have peace accords, you need people in Israel to vote for it, but you won't get this when you have what amounts to a war in the south.
    It didn't go through because Israel didn't want to go back to 1967 borders or recognize the right to return for Palestinian refugees. Like I said, which you didn't even try to dispute, the issues is and always will be West Bank and East Jerusalem settlements. 2002 was twenty years ago. The last Israeli PM to truly try to find a solution was assassinated by a far-right domestic terrorist. You can scapegoat Hamas if you like, but there will be no solution if Palestinians are expected to be the only ones sacrificing anything in an agreement.

    If the current trends of right-wing radicalization are anything to go by, I don't see Israel honestly attempting any sort of solution when they have the full backing of the United States and can just continue to settle to their hearts content. Nothing less than complete Palestinian submission would bring Israel to the table. Considering that Bennet is now PM and people willingly vote in known Kahanists like Itamar Ben-Gvir into office, I'd say the voters are fine with it too.

    Look into Yaakov Fauci and the nonsense he'll post on social media. Watch the videos of the settler march the other day in East Jerusalem. Take a look into the echo chambers these people find themselves in. They whine about a leftist media just like the far-right in America does. Shit, even Liberal Zionists like Zeev Sternhell (who I admire a great deal) had attempts on his life and pipe bombs sent to his house for speaking out about settlements. It's clear to anyone with a set of eyeballs. Israel has a far-right problem, plain and simple. I honestly don't buy any of the talk about wanting security. If you want security and peace then act like it.
    Last edited by downnola; 2021-06-17 at 03:10 PM.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
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  16. #2436
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Let's also recall that the Israeli government helped create Hamas, specifically to cause chaos within Palestine and act as a counterweight to the secular and more-left-wing PLO. Hamas' violence is not a bug, for Israel. It's a feature.

    https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/...tine-conflict/
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847
    Sure. Hamas is the tool that Israel uses to justify their continued illegal expansion. What Israel is trying to do is get in so deep that going back isn't an option. That might very well be the case already, but from there to "one land one country" is a long long trip.
    What they're planning to do simply isn't going to happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    Look into Yaakov Fauci and the nonsense he'll post on social media. Watch the videos of the settler march the other day in East Jerusalem. Take a look into the echo chambers these people find themselves in. They whine about a leftist media just like the far-right in America does. Shit, even Liberal Zionists like Zeev Sternhell (who I admire a great deal) had attempts on his life and pipe bombs sent to his house for speaking out about settlements. It's clear to anyone with a set of eyeballs. Israel has a far-right problem, plain and simple. I honestly don't buy any of the talk about wanting security. If you want security and peace then act like it.
    Absolutely. People don't seem to realise how dangerous that road is. Allowing extremists, paramilitary groups and whatnot into the political process, instead of isolating them into oblivion, leads to exactly what you described here. The bar lowers so much that eventually even being right wing isn't enough.
    This is showing often in Israel with ultra orthodox communities being totally out of control.
    You even have the religious edge in here, which means this could lead straight into Taliban territory. An extremist religious group being given power to reach a specific goal, then abusing that power to control the land according to their twisted religious views.
    Last edited by Cringefest; 2021-06-17 at 03:19 PM.

  17. #2437
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Yes, because clearly asking US and EU recognized terrorist organization to stop chucking missiles and incendiary balloons over the border and renounce violence is too much to ask for.

    People like you who practically try to whitewash Hamas is a big reason why they are encouraged to continue and chiefly fuck over Palestinians first and foremost.

    But as I said, if you want them to continue, then really fine by me. I don't really care, it's not my priority in life at all.
    Actually, omeomorfismo comparing Hamas ceasing terrorism to asking poors not to starve is a pretty radical statement of Palestinian terrorist essentialism.

    The continuing terrorism is a pretty clear indicator that they think it’s working in the international field, or they’re too fundamentally opposed to Israel’s right to exist to care about negotiated outcomes anyways.

    The obvious proof against most of the arguments on the last two pages is the Palestinian Arab allies abandoning solidarity with them to sign separate diplomatic normalization and trade deals with Israel. These are countries that held out for decades thinking pan-Arab solidarity would be used by Palestinian leadership for two-state talks and eventual peace. And they’ve given up on waiting around for Hamas and Fatah to bargain in good faith.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  18. #2438
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    *snip*
    The real one big issue was status of Jerusalem and nothing else.

    The settlements can be removed if actual peace agreement reached and it was part of 2002 proposal, the only real problem with 2002 proposal was Jerusalem and it all stuck there until they all ran out of time. Another smaller issue was the town of Ariel, but that was to be solved by giving up a chunk of Israeli land within 67 borders.

    The right of return won't be happening under any Israeli PM, so might as well stop dreaming about it right there. Jerusalem on the other hand, I believe a deal there would be possible, but that's like the pinnacle of it all, there won't be anything without other parts cleared and agreed upon first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Actually, omeomorfismo comparing Hamas ceasing terrorism to asking poors not to starve is a pretty radical statement of Palestinian terrorist essentialism.

    The continuing terrorism is a pretty clear indicator that they think it’s working in the international field, or they’re too fundamentally opposed to Israel’s right to exist to care about negotiated outcomes anyways.

    The obvious proof against most of the arguments on the last two pages is the Palestinian Arab allies abandoning solidarity with them to sign separate diplomatic normalization and trade deals with Israel. These are countries that held out for decades thinking pan-Arab solidarity would be used by Palestinian leadership for two-state talks and eventual peace. And they’ve given up on waiting around for Hamas and Fatah to bargain in good faith.
    Pretty much.

  19. #2439
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Actually, omeomorfismo comparing Hamas ceasing terrorism to asking poors not to starve is a pretty radical statement of Palestinian terrorist essentialism.

    The continuing terrorism is a pretty clear indicator that they think it’s working in the international field, or they’re too fundamentally opposed to Israel’s right to exist to care about negotiated outcomes anyways.

    The obvious proof against most of the arguments on the last two pages is the Palestinian Arab allies abandoning solidarity with them to sign separate diplomatic normalization and trade deals with Israel. These are countries that held out for decades thinking pan-Arab solidarity would be used by Palestinian leadership for two-state talks and eventual peace. And they’ve given up on waiting around for Hamas and Fatah to bargain in good faith.
    Yes. And then there is reality, as in the world we live in.
    The continuing terrorism is a sign of continued oppression, obviously, what else could it possibly be. It's not like hamas members are doing well for themselves are they. Also, they are not too fundamentally opposed to work with Israel, as shown several times in this thread, by them agreeing to work with Israel diplomatically on a two states solution based on 1967 borders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    The real one big issue was status of Jerusalem and nothing else.

    The settlements can be removed if actual peace agreement reached and it was part of 2002 proposal, the only real problem with 2002 proposal was Jerusalem and it all stuck there until they all ran out of time. Another smaller issue was the town of Ariel, but that was to be solved by giving up a chunk of Israeli land within 67 borders.

    The right of return won't be happening under any Israeli PM, so might as well stop dreaming about it right there. Jerusalem on the other hand, I believe a deal there would be possible, but that's like the pinnacle of it all, there won't be anything without other parts cleared and agreed upon first.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Pretty much.
    So there's not going to be a deal ever, as Jerusalem can't be the capital of Israel. There was a reason why it was considered neutral territory, divided into Arab and Israeli sections.

  20. #2440
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    The right of return won't be happening under any Israeli PM, so might as well stop dreaming about it right there.
    And yet, you support Israel enforcing their "right of return" in East Jerusalem.

    Quotes used because East Jerusalem is occupied territory and said "right of return" involves committing war crimes.

    This is the root problem; Israel will not accept an equitable solution.

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