1. #2561
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    After all, North Korea, China and Russia also have elections.
    Iran's elections aren't a single-party thing, unlike North Korea or China.

    And yeah; Russia's democratic. Has been for decades. Your point?


  2. #2562
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    After all, North Korea, China and Russia also have elections.
    The US too. Can you imagine that?

  3. #2563
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ews-on-israel/

    You forgot this post? “Jews all over the world” all Jews are the same? Jews in America are a monolith???
    You forgot what started the discussion? Enough already. At least read your own links:
    Caring about Israel is “essential” to what being Jewish means to 45% of U.S. Jewish adults, and an additional 37% say it is “important, but not essential,”
    Do I have to explain what 45% + 37% means? Really?
    Or even reading further:
    Just 16% of U.S. Jewish adults say that caring about Israel is “not important” to their Jewish identity.
    Just lol, Themius. Your great theory of "Israel is not really liked by Jews" never got off anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You realize Iran literally just had elections, right?

    It's also theocratic, yes. But if the state of Israel justifies itself, fundamentally, with any call to the Jewish faith, any sense of being their god's "chosen people", any sense that the region was given to them by that god, they're theocratic as well in some sense. Which is the point being made.

    I don't think it's particularly useful, and would rather focus on the actions of a government to evaluate their merit, but there's a lot of inconsistency on certain points here that should be called out.
    "Elections" with pre-approved candidates chosen by the actual people in power - ayatollahs. Lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Iran's elections aren't a single-party thing, unlike North Korea or China.

    And yeah; Russia's democratic. Has been for decades. Your point?
    Russia is de facto autocratic state. Mild, but still autocratic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  4. #2564
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    "Elections" with pre-approved candidates chosen by the actual people in power
    Not the US, he said Iran.

  5. #2565
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Iran's elections aren't a single-party thing, unlike North Korea or China.

    And yeah; Russia's democratic. Has been for decades. Your point?
    And obviously, anyone can be a candidate or only those approved by those in power in Iran ?

    And in Russia, it is easier to win election when you ban or put in prison all your opponents ?

    Defending autocratic state now?

  6. #2566
    Quote Originally Posted by Cringefest View Post
    Not the US, he said Iran.
    I am talking about Iran.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  7. #2567
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    You forgot what started the discussion? Enough already. At least read your own links:


    Do I have to explain what 45% + 37% means? Really?
    Or even reading further:


    Just lol, Themius. Your great theory of "Israel is not really liked by Jews" never got off anywhere.



    "Elections" with pre-approved candidates chosen by the actual people in power - ayatollahs. Lol.



    Russia is de facto autocratic state. Mild, but still autocratic.
    90-95% of American jews are Ashkenazi... I want to know what the American Sephardim and Mizrahim think....

    American Sephardim size is like like 0.5% the size of Ashkenazi and Mizrahim are slightly smaller.

    Which is why I said an American jewish poll about this issue is almost exclusively an American Ashkenazi poll.

    So then you come at me with a poll of Sephardim and Mizrahim who live in Israel as if there wouldn't be a bias from them already living there that would heavily skew towards Israel being important...
    Last edited by Themius; 2021-06-22 at 07:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  8. #2568
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    And obviously, anyone can be a candidate or only those approved by those in power in Iran ?

    And in Russia, it is easier to win election when you ban or put in prison all your opponents ?

    Defending autocratic state now?
    Can refugees from the Nakba or any of the wars return to Israel or occupied territory?

    Is "Judaizing Galilee and Negev" not Israeli domestic policy?

    Is there no two class system with color coded ID cards for Israeli and Palestinian citizens?

    Cool man, Israeli Arabs can vote and hold office, but only because intentionally restricting immigration and basing almost all domestic policy on the growth of one ethnic group over another doesn't threaten the "national identity." Some fucking democracy, bud.

    dEfEnDiNg ApArThIeD sTaTeS nOw?
    Last edited by downnola; 2021-06-22 at 09:15 PM.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  9. #2569
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    Can refugees from the Nekba or any of the wars return to Israel or occupied territory?

    Is "Judaizing Galilee and Negev" not Israeli domestic policy?

    Is there no two class system with color coded ID cards for Israeli and Palestinian citizens?

    Cool man, Israeli Arabs can vote and hold office, but only because intentionally restricting immigration and basing almost all domestic policy on the growth of one ethnic group over another doesn't threaten the "national identity." Some fucking democracy, bud.

    dEfEnDiNg ApArThIeD sTaTeS nOw?
    That israel democracy is flawed and do bad things, I can agree, but people still have choice for they vote for.

  10. #2570
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    That israel democracy is flawed and do bad things, I can agree, but people still have choice for they vote for.
    Iran has elections.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  11. #2571
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Iran has elections.
    I'm waiting for someone to point out that the elections only apply to the government, and not the Supreme Leader.

    Because I can point out that the Guardian Council, who does elect the Supreme Leader, is not that functionally different from the USA's electoral college, in practice. Same basic idea; take the vote for that particular office out of the hands of the people, in case the people vote "wrong".

    Elections aren't the single thing that people seem to think, and the American model is not the apex of free choice in that comparison either.


  12. #2572
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    90-95% of American jews are Ashkenazi... I want to know what the American Sephardim and Mizrahim think....

    American Sephardim size is like like 0.5% the size of Ashkenazi and Mizrahim are slightly smaller.

    Which is why I said an American jewish poll about this issue is almost exclusively an American Ashkenazi poll.

    So then you come at me with a poll of Sephardim and Mizrahim who live in Israel as if there wouldn't be a bias from them already living there that would heavily skew towards Israel being important...
    Do you or do you not understand what "average Jew" means? The "discussion" was whether Jews support Israel. They generally do as evidenced by what I linked, ergo, you were wrong (yes, on the internet, the horror). If some minority of them do not, it does not change the fact that majority (read, the average Jew) does therefore again - you were wrong.

    Now will you in Biden's words "Just shut up, man", or will you keep doing what you are known here for?

    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    Can refugees from the Nekba or any of the wars return to Israel or occupied territory?

    Is "Judaizing Galilee and Negev" not Israeli domestic policy?

    Is there no two class system with color coded ID cards for Israeli and Palestinian citizens?

    Cool man, Israeli Arabs can vote and hold office, but only because intentionally restricting immigration and basing almost all domestic policy on the growth of one ethnic group over another doesn't threaten the "national identity." Some fucking democracy, bud.

    dEfEnDiNg ApArThIeD sTaTeS nOw?
    If those 5 million Arabs return then it kills the idea of Israel the Jewish state. It will never happen. Never. It is not even a point of discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I'm waiting for someone to point out that the elections only apply to the government, and not the Supreme Leader.

    Because I can point out that the Guardian Council, who does elect the Supreme Leader, is not that functionally different from the USA's electoral college, in practice. Same basic idea; take the vote for that particular office out of the hands of the people, in case the people vote "wrong".

    Elections aren't the single thing that people seem to think, and the American model is not the apex of free choice in that comparison either.
    Are you seriously comparing USA's election system, with all it's flaws, as somehow comparable to Iranian one? I guess local tankies are starting to win this forum.
    Last edited by Easo; 2021-06-22 at 08:56 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  13. #2573
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Are you seriously comparing USA's election system, with all it's flaws, as somehow comparable to Iranian one? I guess local tankies are starting to win this forum.
    1> I'm not a "tankie", and it's bafflingly ridiculous that you'd draw that kind of conclusion.
    2> My point was that people often denigrate some electoral systems because there are elements that aren't up to open and free popular vote, when many of the systems they do support and laud also have elements that aren't up to open and free popular vote. It's a double standard, and generally indicates their position isn't about "democracy" to begin with.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    If those 5 million Arabs return then it kills the idea of Israel the Jewish state. It will never happen. Never. It is not even a point of discussion.
    Also, this kind of underscores that Israel is deliberately implementing a system of apartheid, you just don't like admitting it.

    The Rome Statute of the ICC defines "apartheid" like this;

    ""The crime of apartheid" means inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime"

    And Paragraph 1, among the more obvious categories like "genocide", includes these as qualifying; "Deportation or forcible transfer of population", and "Other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health". Removing Palestinians from occupied territories qualifies as the former, blatantly, and the aftermath of Israel's military actions in those same occupied territories can readily qualify as the latter.

    https://www.icc-cpi.int/resource-lib...nts/rs-eng.pdf

    You're literally describing apartheid as the intent and desired outcome of Israeli jurisdiction. While protesting that it's not apartheid because that's a mean word that means it's bad and you don't want to admit Israeli actions might be bad. And that's about as deep as that defense goes.

    Why should these Israeli actions be given a pass? We'd condemn them in any other nation.

    If Israel is a Jewish state for Jewish citizens first and foremost, and there's any inequality between Jewish citizens and those other other ethnicities or faiths, then what you're talking about is deliberate apartheid.
    Last edited by Endus; 2021-06-22 at 09:18 PM.


  14. #2574
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    If those 5 million Arabs return then it kills the idea of Israel the Jewish state. It will never happen. Never. It is not even a point of discussion.
    This is why the idea that Israel is some shining example of Middle Eastern democracy in a sea of barbarism is such a laughable fucking myth. I'm amazed that you wrote that down and thought it was some sort of good argument. You do realize excluding people from a state, especially those who have lived there for centuries, based completely on ethnicity is bigotry, right?
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  15. #2575

  16. #2576
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Do you or do you not understand what "average Jew" means? The "discussion" was whether Jews support Israel. They generally do as evidenced by what I linked, ergo, you were wrong (yes, on the internet, the horror). If some minority of them do not, it does not change the fact that majority (read, the average Jew) does therefore again - you were wrong.

    Now will you in Biden's words "Just shut up, man", or will you keep doing what you are known here for?



    If those 5 million Arabs return then it kills the idea of Israel the Jewish state. It will never happen. Never. It is not even a point of discussion.



    Are you seriously comparing USA's election system, with all it's flaws, as somehow comparable to Iranian one? I guess local tankies are starting to win this forum.
    So atleast you see how Isreal is an apartheid ethnostate, thats good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Timmy still can get lunch, it's just not free.

  17. #2577
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Do you or do you not understand what "average Jew" means? The "discussion" was whether Jews support Israel. They generally do as evidenced by what I linked, ergo, you were wrong (yes, on the internet, the horror). If some minority of them do not, it does not change the fact that majority (read, the average Jew) does therefore again - you were wrong.
    my post:

    American Jews aren't the only jews... and if we are talking American jews... we usually mean almost solely Ashkenazi jews and being Israel is kind of sort of an Ashkenazi Jewish state......
    So you combat this by saying "don't you know what average American jew means!"

    Yeah it means solely Ashkenazi...it is very very very clear from my post. Sorry I don't enjoy your idea of jewish erasure of anyone who isn't Ashkenazi.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  18. #2578
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    Ya this is a really interesting scenario. I kind of just think they should be free to fly Hamas flags because it means they support a terrorist agenda and if a terrorist supporter wants to put a red flag on themselves then it's not such a bad thing. Having that agenda in secret is more dangerous, imo.

    Also I noticed some people on Twitter are saying the Palestinian flag is a hate symbol as well. But that's a different can of worms.
    Last edited by PC2; 2021-06-22 at 09:50 PM.
    Let's spread optimism and defeat pessimism! (HumanProgress.org)

  19. #2579
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    So atleast you see how Isreal is an apartheid ethnostate, thats good.
    Don't you love how I point out the problem with "Average American jew" being that American jews are mostly Ashkenazi and point out how Israel is basically an Ashkenazi jewish state and he combats this by saying

    "you're wrong because I said average jew!!!!"

    well if you poll mostly American jews and don't break it down by whether they're Sephardim, mizrahim, bene, beta.... you're basically only getting the Ashkenazi viewpoint of a mostly Ashkenazi area....
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  20. #2580
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Iran has elections.
    North Korea has also elections.

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