1. #2701
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And here, Israel's crimes are not "paling in comparison" to Hamas'.
    I mean...the fact that this question is even a debate is not looking good for Israel. Hamas is a terrorist organization, according to the US, EU, Canada and Japan. Israel is a civilized country. This shouldn't be a debate.

    And this comes from an American. We've done some shitty things.

  2. #2702
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    "You're both acting badly, and Israel's acting the worst of the two" seems to be a position they can't grasp. It has to be one "good guy" and one "bad guy", and if you're saying anyone's a "bad guy", that must mean you think the other side's the "good guy". Which is just fucking nonsense.
    Exactly this.

    None of this is even unique to Israel/Palestine. I had to deal with the same shit in the Syria threads. Nuance and human rights are for the birds, Endus. You're either with us or you're with the terrorists.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
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  3. #2703
    High Overlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I mean...the fact that this question is even a debate is not looking good for Israel. Hamas is a terrorist organization, according to the US, EU, Canada and Japan. Israel is a civilized country. This shouldn't be a debate.

    And this comes from an American. We've done some shitty things.
    It's only a debate among very misinformed or heavily biased people

  4. #2704
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I mean...the fact that this question is even a debate is not looking good for Israel. Hamas is a terrorist organization, according to the US, EU, Canada and Japan. Israel is a civilized country. This shouldn't be a debate.

    And this comes from an American. We've done some shitty things.
    And that's what I'm getting at by acknowledging that, yes, Israel's being held to a higher standard. The standard of any Westernized developed democracy, rather than an extremist sect (and I'm only phrasing it slightly differently than you, here, because there are still secular groups in Palestine pushing to oust Hamas, and presenting Hamas as representing all Palestinians is exactly as problematic as claiming Israel's government represents all Jewish viewpoints.)


  5. #2705
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    what??? you realize that doesn't make the situation any less dire, right? like you just want us to ignore an ongoing human rights crisis??? on top of this ongoing human rights crisis being paid for by other countries? namely the US? who gives them OUR tax dollars for this??? huh??????????????? I'm going to repeat myself:
    It seems you have lost yourself somewhere unrelated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Get back to me when you're willing to even consider the possibility that you're misinformed about Hamas' history.
    I do not accept some interview as the one and only truth. You wanna spread bullshit about Israel creating terrorist organisations? Go ahead. I will not.

    My position is that Israel was right. Israel lying is your headcanon. My - that they are not.
    YOU think they were civilian in nature. No, you are not any kind of authority regarding it. Though it has to be said - none of us here are.

    Endus, since when do you know which of all those those buildings did or did not receive knocks? You don't, again.


    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    Oh grow up, lmao.
    Classy. But seriously, Israel has zero reason to explain anything to you. Or to me. Or to Endus. Or anyone on this forum. Be realistic, FFS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    A few points on this;
    Pfff, local Arabs have killed each other more than Jews have killed them. Black September alone is telling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  6. #2706
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    I do not accept some interview as the one and only truth. You wanna spread bullshit about Israel creating terrorist organisations? Go ahead. I will not.
    You don't have an alternative.

    And if it's that I only had one source, fine. Have at it;

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/2302309...d-create-hamas
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-create-hamas/
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847
    https://www.filmsforaction.org/watch...created-hamas/
    https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hama...-own-creation/

    My position is that Israel was right. Israel lying is your headcanon. My - that they are not.
    YOU think they were civilian in nature. No, you are not any kind of authority regarding it. Though it has to be said - none of us here are.
    You're seriously going to double-down on the idea that apartment buildings were military installations without any civilian presence?

    Pfff, local Arabs have killed each other more than Jews have killed them. Black September alone is telling.
    More deflection and dehumanization.

    And you still can't cite a single source to back anything you're claiming up.


  7. #2707
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Classy. But seriously, Israel has zero reason to explain anything to you. Or to me. Or to Endus. Or anyone on this forum. Be realistic, FFS.
    So your position is that Israel is above international law? That's a hell of a take, my guy.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  8. #2708
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post



    Classy. But seriously, Israel has zero reason to explain anything to you. Or to me. Or to Endus. Or anyone on this forum. Be realistic, FFS.

    In that case, we are free to treat them like the ethnic cleansers they are, that makes it very easy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    So your position is that Israel is above international law? That's a hell of a take, my guy.
    His position is that Israel can indeed whatever they want to the Palestinians. Pretty much anybody in this thread defending Israel over this are.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fandis View Post
    Oh trust me I've noticed.
    Turns out that some people are not really fans of ethnic cleansing. Or is it only wrong when China or Myanmar do it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Timmy still can get lunch, it's just not free.

  9. #2709
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Get back to me when you're willing to even consider the possibility that you're misinformed about Hamas' history. All you're doing now is refusing to consider evidence because it clashes with your assumptions, while providing fuck-all to back up your own assumptions.

    I could accept if you had a counter-argument. But you don't. You're just jamming your fingers in your ears and shouting "NUH UH".



    Is your position seriously that Israel could lie, and that international courts should accept the lie?

    Because the buildings were clearly civilian in nature, and being used by civilians. In fact, Israel demonstrates they know they're being used by civilians, when the do a roof-knock. If there were "no doubt", they'd have no cause to do so, after all. So not even Israel agrees with you on this point.



    No, the articles of the Geneva Convention, as conveniently brought up by Easo a moment ago, that proves they're war crimes, and that even Israel knows the buildings are civilian.

    There wouldn't need to be a declaration of incoming attacks, or a roof-knock, if there weren't civilians using the building. And if there's doubt as to whether the building is civilian or military in use, you always default to "civilian". That there is also military use does not overrule the civilian use and justify attacking it. That's a breach of the Geneva Conventions, which is why we're calling it out.
    Would like to point out that "military use" is such a broad generic term that within that definition anybody related to Hamas including firefighters, dokters or even a seamstress could fall under that definition because they might get payment/food from Hamas.

    And we kind of know that Israel uses this broad definition of who they consider benemen combatants.

  10. #2710
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You don't have an alternative.
    You do realize all those sources are basically quoting the same few people and more or less doing copy paste/rewording of the same thing?
    And reading all that it looks not like Israel decided to create an organization to blame for attacks (which is what you seem to be implying in my understanding, pardon my French if it is not like that), but supporting few influential people opposed to PLO, who were the biggest cunts at that time, which grew into Hamas way later. That is like saying USA created Taliban (they did not).
    Similar, but... not the same thing.

    Most of them definitely were. We can argue about the rest, though after the insanity you wrote about ground incursions I really do not think you can talk about what is or is not a military target.

    What, count the dead? There is Wiki for that, with links to sources. It clearly looks to me that Arabs are better at "genociding" each other than Jews to them. Feel free to think it is dehumanization, keep blaming Israel for that if you wish. I disagree with both of those notions.

    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    So your position is that Israel is above international law? That's a hell of a take, my guy.
    Cannot read yet again. Urgh...

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    In that case, we are free to treat them like the ethnic cleansers they are, that makes it very easy.
    Sure, that is absolutely your right. Some will agree, some will not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  11. #2711
    Quote Originally Posted by Fandis View Post
    It's only a debate among very misinformed or heavily biased people
    Its good to recognise your heavy bias. I'm proud of you.

  12. #2712
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post

    Sure, that is absolutely your right. Some will agree, some will not.
    Yeah, and we can see those defending it as the same sort of people, makes it this all really easy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Timmy still can get lunch, it's just not free.

  13. #2713
    Stood in the Fire tehdang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    I'm basing my skepticism on the IDFs history of indiscriminate attacks. It's well documented and they've been scrutinized heavily for it. I'm not saying anything new.
    Nice to include another instance where terrorists, in this case Hezbollah, invaded into Israel, killing and capturing Israeli soldiers. The thousands of rockets Hezbollah fired on Israel predated the Iron Dome defensive system. Rockets fell on Israel prior to that conflict too, killing civilians while capturing and killing soldiers. "bUt iSRael's rESponSE" once again ignoring the one-sided violence immediately preceding the action. Israel learned valuable lessons in that war and their later development in intelligence gathering and precision munitions (defensive and offensive) greatly aided their current actions.

    Others and I have been accused of antisemitism and supporters of Hamas numerous times in this thread without a single shred of evidence for it. On the other hand, I can easily pull up a Fox News opinion piece and copy and paste their argument into the thread and it would mimic your own arguments almost word for word. That's pretty much all you've offered in this thread so far. Seriously, aside from having to read your overly verbose and incomprehensible posts, what do I need you for when I can just go straight to the source and read their take?

    https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/isra...ley-john-hagee
    Bro, you're here accusing others of covering for actual war crimes, and people defending Israel in this thread are regularly accused of supporting genocide and an ethnostate. You can stand for a little deserved backlash. Namely, that your softball criticism of Hamas together with lies and pearl-clutching with Israel amounts to a pro-Hamas position. Every time Israel defends itself, your only response is detailing all the reasons they deserve to stand idle in the face of rocket fire because Hamas hides in civilian architecture. Come off it.

    Link Fox News to somebody that relies on their reporting, or agrees that arguing by analogy is good stuff.

    The sad part is that they at least make an attempt to feign concern for Palestinians. Which is a lot more than I can say for you lot.
    It's a wonder they choose to wage war in such a targeted manner, when all they get in response is "feign concern." Israel protected its population with targeted munitions, effectively saving thousands of Palestinian lives with their restraint. And all you can muster is "feign concern." They're letting the terrorists along with civilians go free after the knock bombs. Terrorists waging war against their nation. Any wonder why people conclude the disparate treatment amounts to a pro-Hamas and anti-Israel position? Granted, I'm glad that you don't post any "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free," which is the more overt form of Hamas support.
    Last edited by tehdang; 2021-07-05 at 06:43 PM.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  14. #2714
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Every time Israel defends itself, your only response is detailing all the reasons they deserve to stand idle in the face of rocket fire because Hamas hides in civilian architecture. Come off it.
    When your "self defense" targets and kills innocent civilians, you're not engaging in self defense, in the first place. Claims that it's "self defense" are just empty lies.

    And nobody here has suggested Israel "stand idle". Just that they stick to actual self defense, rather than attacks that kill more innocent bystanders than actual targets.


  15. #2715
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Don't mind me, just defending myself by going to the west bank and kicking out palestian families and destroying the homes they live in/stores they use.




    This is how self defense works. Just ask Hitler.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Timmy still can get lunch, it's just not free.

  16. #2716
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    Don't mind me, just defending myself by going to the west bank and kicking out palestian families and destroying the homes they live in/stores they use.

    This is how self defense works. Just ask Hitler.
    A guy threw a rock at me earlier, and then ran off into the crowd. Clearly, I had no choice but to spray the crowd with semi-automatic fire and hope I got him. You can't take me to task over all the innocent people I shot, that's the fault of the guy who threw the rock!

    Try using that defense in any courtroom and see how far it gets you.


  17. #2717
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    A guy threw a rock at me earlier, and then ran off into the crowd. Clearly, I had no choice but to spray the crowd with semi-automatic fire and hope I got him. You can't take me to task over all the innocent people I shot, that's the fault of the guy who threw the rock!

    Try using that defense in any courtroom and see how far it gets you.
    Can you be worse at analogy ? In that case, you should add that you warn the crowd that you are going to shoot at the guy and the guy decides to hide behind the crown nonetheless and keep saying he wants to destroy and keep shooting at you. That would be closer to reality.

  18. #2718
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Can you be worse at analogy ? In that case, you should add that you warn the crowd that you are going to shoot at the guy and the guy decides to hide behind the crown nonetheless and keep saying he wants to destroy and keep shooting at you. That would be closer to reality.
    You think that doing either would justify me shooting indiscriminately into the crowd?

    You're making my case for me. I fully accept your recommended adjustment, and now point out it changes nothing meaningful, and I'd still be rightfully arrested and tried and convicted for mass murder, if I actually did such a thing.

    With the caveat that the reason I had him throw a rock was to create a dynamic which reflected the disparity in the actual threat presented by either side. That rock could kill you, if you didn't dodge it and they got lucky, just like a Hamas rocket can and does kill Israeli citizens if it gets through the Iron Dome, but the majority don't, and Israeli response is far out of scale.
    Last edited by Endus; 2021-07-05 at 08:06 PM.


  19. #2719
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You think that doing either would justify me shooting indiscriminately into the crowd?

    You're making my case for me. I fully accept your recommended adjustment, and now point out it changes nothing meaningful, and I'd still be rightfully arrested and tried and convicted for mass murder, if I actually did such a thing.

    With the caveat that the reason I had him throw a rock was to create a dynamic which reflected the disparity in the actual threat presented by either side. That rock could kill you, if you didn't dodge it and they got lucky, just like a Hamas rocket can and does kill Israeli citizens if it gets through the Iron Dome, but the majority don't, and Israeli response is far out of scale.
    At least, you are now presenting the facts more honestly than you did and than you usually do .
    Last edited by Specialka; 2021-07-05 at 08:16 PM.

  20. #2720
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fandis View Post
    First you know all too well there were no human casualties in the destruction of the media building as even the building owner has confirmed there was nobody inside and he has done so before a camera, so don't mention clearly unrelated stuff just do add weight to your arguments, it has the opposite effect. And yes we are currently discussing civilian casualties.
    As for your other example, you don't know whether there is a proof (and I don't know that either), however there is a difference between a court hearing where both sides present their proofs and arguments etc etc, and an actual war where you get an intel and you act on that intel rather than present a proof to a random guy at his/her computer on the other side of the world and waiting for their approval. If you said Israel doesn't put enough effort to prevent civilian deaths, I'd still disagree but that'd be a reasonable argument worth discussing. Saying they kill civilians on purpose? It's bs and you know it's bs



    So you are basically saying Israel does it just for the lols, just to be evil, at the cost of getting a major negative PR with various consequences (including for example being unable to complete the military campaign against Hamas and thus making sure this will happen again in a few years once Hamas rearms), with no tangible benefits for itself? That sounds like a good argument...


    If no one was in the building why did they target it?
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