1. #341
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I'm not the one who brought in Holocaust comparisons in the first place.
    Then you should have no trouble backing off it, instead of getting “frank”...

    So you're just going to skip over the use of molotovs and hand grenades cited in the article I linked? It's pretty comparable, given the difference in technological availability. You're also playing pointless games with the timeline. All because you were just wrong about the passivity of Jewish people in the Reich.
    Fuck technology!!! I said military... I said chugging bombs at Germany... Jews were Germans... Where were Jews attacking Germany from? What was the Jewish Palestine?
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  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    The fuck type of argument is this?

    "Israel is claiming"

    Who gives a fuck about their claims when we know their actions?
    Ok, you need to calm down. When Hamas launches rockets form a residential apartment complex, I think it's fair game to bomb that complex out of existance. That's not Israel attacking a civilian target, exactly. Especially not when they give the residents advance warning to fuck off, a very common strategy in these things. So when you talk about their "actions" and that you know exactly what they're doing, make sure you're on the same page as everyone else.
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  3. #343
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Demanding someone pay rent or renew a lease even if they don't like the race of the person who they owe rent to is a war crime? Remember, this is over a rent dispute on an apartment building.
    Ooh reduction... how lovely.
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  4. #344
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Before this gets any sloppier, lets get back to the topic. This tangent filled with assumptions and hyperbole is making discussion spiral.
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  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I don't know if they have nukes to be dicks. As far as I know they still haven't officially acknowledged them having nukes. Israel is typically low-key about anything military. But I may have missed that piece of news, of course, so you may be able to educate me here.
    Did you seriously just go to the official line where they deny or don't talk about their nukes? seriously? this is decades old news.

  6. #346
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Ok, you need to calm down. When Hamas launches rockets form a residential apartment complex, I think it's fair game to bomb that complex out of existance. That's not Israel attacking a civilian target, exactly. Especially not when they give the residents advance warning to fuck off, a very common strategy in these things. So when you talk about their "actions" and that you know exactly what they're doing, make sure you're on the same page as everyone else.
    This is an isolated incident?

    Shall I link to the thread from a few years ago then? That thread has quite a lot of sources.. videos... images... news reports all showing the crimes Israel was committing were indeed terrorist in nature or at the last war crimes.

    Like you know... when they told an area to evacuate to a specific place to just bomb the place they told people to go to killing tons of civilians...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
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  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    They didn't have suicide "bombers" but they had "suicide attackers" people who fought and rose up knowing they would die and as endus pointed out...grenades.. molotovs.

    In fact the history of war is filled with tons of suicide attacks, only suicide bombing is treated in a special way... but personally... I think all suicide attacks are the same in purpose... kill people... know you will die.
    If I was a dick, I'd point out that the Jewish rebels attacked German military and SS forces exlusively, while Palestinians primarily aim at civilian targets. But that would probably spoil your fun, so I'll be the nice guy and not mention it...

    Y'all need to stop making stupid comparisons just cos you get a hardon for Nazis and the Holocaust. Focus on what's happening now instead of labouring to use WW2 for this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Did you seriously just go to the official line where they deny or don't talk about their nukes? seriously? this is decades old news.
    What I'm saying is... it's a bit weird to say they're dicking around with their nukes by not talking about them. Huh? How's that work out for you in the logic department?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    This is an isolated incident?

    Shall I link to the thread from a few years ago then? That thread has quite a lot of sources.. videos... images... news reports all showing the crimes Israel was committing were indeed terrorist in nature or at the last war crimes.

    Like you know... when they told an area to evacuate to a specific place to just bomb the place they told people to go to killing tons of civilians...
    That isn't an isolated incident, that is very, very common. It doesn't excuse the low-key bullshit they're putting Palestinians through on other occasions, but calling foul on the Israelis just leads to me pointing out just about the same number of fouls on the Palestinian side. Both sides are dicks and the civilian population in Gaza is the actual victim here. Victim from BOTH sides. Make no mistake, Hamas is just as responsible for any civilian deaths in Gaza as the IDF is.
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  8. #348
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    If I was a dick, I'd point out that the Jewish rebels attacked German military and SS forces exlusively, while Palestinians primarily aim at civilian targets. But that would probably spoil your fun, so I'll be the nice guy and not mention it...

    Y'all need to stop making stupid comparisons just cos you get a hardon for Nazis and the Holocaust. Focus on what's happening now instead of labouring to use WW2 for this.

    - - - Updated - - -



    What I'm saying is... it's a bit weird to say they're dicking around with their nukes by not talking about them. Huh? How's that work out for you in the logic department?
    You said what you said you weren't going to say? Is this a cute game to you? It seems very sophomoric don't you think?

    Question for you here... does only one side get to claim collateral damage? Is collateral damage only for westerners who collaterally damage people to death?
    That isn't an isolated incident, that is very, very common. It doesn't excuse the low-key bullshit they're putting Palestinians through on other occasions, but calling foul on the Israelis just leads to me pointing out just about the same number of fouls on the Palestinian side. Both sides are dicks and the civilian population in Gaza is the actual victim here. Victim from BOTH sides. Make no mistake, Hamas is just as responsible for any civilian deaths in Gaza as the IDF is.
    I don't think you're making a joke here... and yet you try to equalise the sides As if they are on equal footing...
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  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    What I'm saying is... it's a bit weird to say they're dicking around with their nukes by not talking about them. Huh? How's that work out for you in the logic department?
    Unless you are North Korea or led by some idiot (cough Trump) no one talks about their nukes it's standard procedure everyone knowing you have them is enough. You still haven't addressed the main point which was they did not need the nukes.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    You said what you said you weren't going to say? Is this a cute game to you? It seems very sophomoric don't you think?

    Question for you here... does only one side get to claim collateral damage? Is collateral damage only for westerners who collaterally damage people to death?


    I don't think you're making a joke here... and yet you try to equalise the sides As if they are on equal footing...
    Oh, I suppose it did say it out loud, how clumsy of me. Just goes to show how little I think of the stupid fatality pissing contest going on here.

    Who cares if they are on equal footing? This isn't gentlemen's boxing where each side gets a punch before the other is allowed to. Hamas will get the mother of all smackdowns in the next few days, as they usually do, Israel will dominate them and pacify Gaza forcefully and that'll be the end of it. A week later you'll have forgotten about this until the next time something flares up.

    And make no mistake, if you think Hamas is innocent, you've got another thing coming... firing hundreds of rockets into Israeli cities, that disqualifies them from the sympathy card they so depserately are begging for with the social media propaganda campaign they got going.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Unless you are North Korea or led by some idiot (cough Trump) no one talks about their nukes it's standard procedure everyone knowing you have them is enough. You still haven't addressed the main point which was they did not need the nukes.
    Nukes would only serve as a deterrent against Iran. There is no point in even using nukes in rhetorics against Palestinians. So you can stop the whole nuke talk, cos that's just not on the table right now. Again, I get it, people have a hardon for nukes cos they're dramatic, but it's not in the cards here.
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  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Nukes would only serve as a deterrent against Iran. There is no point in even using nukes in rhetorics against Palestinians. So you can stop the whole nuke talk, cos that's just not on the table right now. Again, I get it, people have a hardon for nukes cos they're dramatic, but it's not in the cards here.
    Have you not been following the conversation? I was talking about Israel's relationship with its neighbors yea they didn't get it for the Palestinians thanks captain obvious. You just don't want to talk about the nukes because you want to keep defending Saint Israel.

  12. #352
    Pandaren Monk Tabrotar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barendon View Post
    They will leave most of the settlements and everyone knows that. The Palestinians were even offered that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realignment_plan
    Surprisingly, they didn't bite.
    Ah yes, ofc they will gat out there, when they take mor eand more land every year shure they will...

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Have you not been following the conversation? I was talking about Israel's relationship with its neighbors yea they didn't get it for the Palestinians thanks captain obvious. You just don't want to talk about the nukes because you want to keep defending Saint Israel.
    ISRAEL is not talking about nukes. You keep claiming that they use nukes to dick their neighbours around. And yet, they're not talking about their nukes. That doesn't compute.
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  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    ISRAEL is not talking about nukes. You keep claiming that they use nukes to dick their neighbours around. And yet, they're not talking about their nukes. That doesn't compute.
    I already explained that to you it's not my fault your computer doesn't run binary unless you have the gall to say that nuclear weapons aren't a threat.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Empty personal attacks just suggest you don't have much of an argument...........
    It is personal attack only if you disagree with stating the obvious that someone with views like you have would never be in charge of making decisions about military actions. I really do not see it as an insult.

    Soldiers sign up and swear oath to their country. Israelis comes first for Israeli army, same as elsewhere. Avoiding other civilians comes second. Still on the plate, but their own country is first.
    If you want to write off every single dead to Israeli war crimes, you do you then. I will stick to what I said - Israel is doing everything reasonably possible to avoid casualties while you are forgetting that someone will always die in war regardless of what you do. And that you do not grasp scales involved.

    I really wanna see those sources in Gaza.

    And no, you do not hold them at the same level. There is strong fixation on Israel, while not really much about what Hamas is doing (human shields, using houses for war purposes, the usual). There is military junta in Egypt, there is another terrorist group in charge in Lebanon, etc.

    P.S.
    Wanna see some people in Gaza returning from the dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    hezbollah fought the idf to a draw, hamas cant win but they can bleed. As soon as caskets start coming home with mothers crying over the public opinion can get messy.
    They fought Israel to draw in PR. In the battlefield, well... If that was a draw then i am Barack Obama. But you are right about sensitivity to losses. Nowadays loosing even a company is a big thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    "Gaza is hamas" it is not..
    Thank you for proving again that you have no knowledge of the topic at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Technological advantage is the only reason why there even is a state of Israel today. That was my point.
    Not really. 1948, Six Day and Yom-Kippur wars had more or less equal equipment. After that Arab states stopped attempts at destroying Israel. 1982 and upwards? Oh yeah, technological advantage definitely has shined couple of times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Don't get hung up on "a few dozen".
    As I said when specifically mentioning the thousands of dead in Karabakh war - it did not gather even close to enough attention. There is unhealthy obsession with Israel (oh, could talk about UN resolutions, but it's pointless). Ethiopian conflict of this year? Estimates are in thousands again. BUT ISRAEL!!11

    P.S.
    But dude, lay off a bit on the holocaust comparisions, I think you kinda lost the track there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barendon View Post
    They will leave most of the settlements and everyone knows that. The Palestinians were even offered that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realignment_plan
    Surprisingly, they didn't bite.
    They were offered even more before, it was not accepted. It think that after all failed attempts Israel has just given up on the whole 2 state thing and will do what they think is necessary. Therefore - new settlements and damn everything else.
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  16. #356
    Pandaren Monk Tabrotar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    So what does that make Hamas? You know, a government internationally recognized as a terrorist organization? One that constantly fires rockets at Israel to poke the bear yet has the audacity to whine when that bear bites back with significantly more force? Yeah, get lost with that nonsense. There's no good winner here, and you are a hypocrite if you think Israel defending themselves from militant and rocket strikes on their people makes them nationalists, then so are the Palestinians for fighting back against Israel's encroachment on their land.
    Ah, if you wanna take that rout, shure lets play it that way.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/netany...r-right-party/

    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud party on Wednesday signed a surplus vote-sharing agreement with the far-right Religious Zionism party, which includes the Kahanist Otzma Yehudit and the anti-LGBT Noam factions, ahead of next month’s Knesset elections.

    Under the agreement, furthermore, Likud promised that Netanyahu would include Religious Zionism MKs “in any government he forms,” a stance at odds with previous promises by senior Likud figures that Religious Zionism’s No.3, Itamar Ben Gvir, would not be part of a Netanyahu government.

    The move further aligns the premier with extremists such as Ben Gvir, a disciple of the late far-right rabbi Meir Kahane. Ben Gvir’s Otzma Yehudit party — which has joined forces with the Religious Zionism party for the elections — supports encouraging emigration of non-Jews from Israel and expelling Palestinians and Arab Israelis who refuse to declare loyalty to Israel and accept diminished status in an expanded Jewish state, whose sovereignty would extend throughout the West Bank.


    In the wake of Netanyahu's open embrace of the Kahanists, a brief thread on Kahanism within the Likud, or how the extreme right is now simply the right:

    Likud MK Nissim Vaturi tweets "Ben Gvir is a brother." Itamar Ben Gvir is the leader of the Kahanist "Jewish Power" party, that Netanyahu's Likud signed a vote-sharing agreement with yesterday.

    Likud MK May Golan says: "I hope Itamar Ben Gvir will be in the government, and I think most members of the Likud would agree with me."

    Netanyahu says that it's "hypocritical" to criticize him for the agreement with the Kahanists, and that while Ben Gvir won't be a minister, "he will of course be in the coalition."

    During the brief time when Meir Kahane himself was a member of Knesset, even right-wing MKs would exit the chamber when he spoke, out of a disapproval.

    Now, Kahanism is completely mainstream, part of Israel's ruling party.

    The Kahanists if you don't know (I didn't until recently), are a Supremacist group that includes multiple terrorists behind mass-casualty attacks against Arabs (which got their prior party banned), that wants to establish a rabidly racist theocratic Jewish State, where all non-Jews are stripped of citizenship, if not expelled forcibly. They also want to dissolve the diaspora with all Jews living in Israel, despite the diaspora existing for the near entirety of Jewish history, even before the first Israel was ended. They are basically Israel's straight-up fascist party. Now they are part of Likud's planned ruling coalition.

    Their prior party is also on the State Departments Foreign Terrorist Organization's list.

    So, there you have it, Bibi is coaliting with a rebranded extremist party which can only be discribed as jewish nazis, but hey it´s ok the other party is also a terrorist organisation, so it´s all right...

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    I already explained that to you it's not my fault your computer doesn't run binary unless you have the gall to say that nuclear weapons aren't a threat.
    You talking about nukes that may or may not exist doesn't mean Israel is intimidating it's neighbours, that's just you making shit up.
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  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    You talking about nukes that may or may not exist doesn't mean Israel is intimidating it's neighbours, that's just you making shit up.
    Aren't you a good soldier spouting that line, just keep acting like Israel is innocent.

  19. #359
    I really like how the person who has on numerous occasions downplayed the death toll of Nazi Germany by presenting the six million deaths caused by the Holocaust alone as their total kill count, merrily ignoring the 10+ millions of their other victims (mostly of Slavic persuasion) is now pearl-clutching about people "belittling the Nazi genocide", because Israel is getting criticized and it magically became relevant to them. Very on point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If they went in with sufficient care to not shoot at anyone who wasn't a combatant? Yep.

    Do I think IDF forces would actually show that kind of restraint? Nope; they've demonstrated wild amounts of racism and brutality time and time again.

    Also, cute trying to call my numbers "Hamas lies", when I'm pulling them from the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.
    The best part is that you even went with interpreting it in Israel's favor as much as possible.


    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    Unlike China ,Isreal doesnt have any ambitions on territorial conquests because they lack the population or economy to do so. The only lands they annexed from their neighbours are only useful from a military point of view.
    And Israel's illegal settlements in the West Bank must have been carried there by the wind.


    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    You have only the viewpoint of an idealist. Real world is not perfect and has limitations. Half of this forum cannot grasp it. You cannot achieve everything, you can only do your best to try to. Israel tries it's best to avoid civilian casualties. They are literally the best in the world about this and I am not exagerating. There is limit to everything, though.
    Never mind that the warnings like roof knocking that IDF constantly pats itself on the back over have been shown to not provide enough time for people to do squat on multiple occasions, or the cases like what @Shadowferal linked just before this post of yours of IDF soldiers targeting journalists and the like ("the like" even including UN outpost in Lebanon, which Israel continued bombing for half a day before they finally managed to kill all the people inside, despite the fact that those people contacted them in the meantime and informed them of who they were) or their very civilian-friendly white phosphorus munitions.

    Even if Israel was the best in the universe in this department, it'd only mean the bar is so low it may just as well not exist, not that criticism of Israel is invalid and should be handwaved away as you're doing here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    For the sake of argument, they aren't actually taking land. They own that land since the 6 day war, when Arab countries got the mother of all dickpunches for trying to fuck Israel up. Oh, and the Yom-Kippur war, of course, for the Golan Heights. If I remember my history correctly... bit fuzzy around the edges, but the big picture should be intact.
    Except they don't own it. Gaza and West Bank are considered occupied under international law and it's been confirmed to be the case time and time again by any and all legal authority on the subject, starting with the ICJ.


    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    As I said when specifically mentioning the thousands of dead in Karabakh war - it did not gather even close to enough attention. There is unhealthy obsession with Israel (oh, could talk about UN resolutions, but it's pointless). Ethiopian conflict of this year? Estimates are in thousands again. BUT ISRAEL!!11
    But the Karabakh conflict gained a lot of attention. Including more direct involvement from interested countries than the current thing in Israel did. If you're talking about the forums, there was a lengthy thread on the issue. Which you should know as you posted in it. Also, god forbid a western country that constantly portrays itself as a paragon of justice in the region was held to a higher standard than a backsliding democracy like Azerbaijan.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2021-05-13 at 09:16 PM.
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    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  20. #360
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    The problem with expecting a political solution to come in this situation is that both parties involved benefit politically from this situation. How can a two state solution ever work when those expected to broker for it want it to fail from the start?

    So you do need a third party to come in and deal with this. Sadly again this will be short term.
    @Easo the "army" might be doing everything reasonable to limit casualties but it's not all that clear black and white, one thing however is for certain the political climate and the support of Jewish Orthodox extremists is a big reason why this is currently happening. So there's a reason there is this focus on Israel they are in my eyes also the antagonizer past events can have been different, but i find it is important to say that we can both find Hamas actions terrible and both find Israels actions terrible.

    I always struggled with this idea that if i were to condemn one side i am suddenly absolving the other side of their actions.
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