Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[Draco-Onis]

The problem with expecting a political solution to come in this situation is that both parties involved benefit politically from this situation. How can a two state solution ever work when those expected to broker for it want it to fail from the start?

It's a bit worse than that Israel has no motive to do a deal, the politicians need the scary boogeymen to keep getting elected. For both parties to come to the table in good faith they would have to gain something of value, Palestinians have nothing to offer.

[Slant]

Aren't you a good soldier spouting that line, just keep acting like Israel is innocent.

I never said that. But unlike you, I don't let my emotions dictate what I say. And I certainly don't vilify Israel at the cost of my credibility. Their settlement policy is bullshit and needs to stop. It doesn't cost me anything to point that out. At the same time, though, any rhetoric that defends a terrorist group that wants to annihilate the Israeli state is not going to find my approval.

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I really like how the person who has on numerous occasions downplayed the death toll of Nazi Germany by presenting the six million deaths caused by the Holocaust alone as their total kill count, merrily ignoring the 10+ millions of their other victims (mostly of Slavic persuasion) is now pearl-clutching about people "belittling the Nazi genocide", because Israel is getting criticized and it magically became relevant to them. Very on point.

Except they don't own it. Gaza and West Bank are considered occupied under international law and it's been confirmed to be the case time and time again by any and all legal authority on the subject, starting with the ICJ.

I hope you don't mean me, because I never downplayed the death toll of WW2. I am talking about genocides in relation to Israel, or more specifically, the perceived Irony that caricature wanted to point out. In the context of this caricature, the death toll of any other group is probably not very relevant.

And yes, they do factually own it. They control it, they control access to it and they exert authority over the people in it. Occupation is one word to describe it, sure, but factually this is land controlled by Israel. As far as I know, Palestine is not a country, so they clearly don't own it. Although I'm sure you'll say they do with just as little legal support for that theory as mine.

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It's a bit worse than that Israel has no motive to do a deal, the politicians need the scary boogeymen to keep getting elected. For both parties to come to the table in good faith they would have to gain something of value, Palestinians have nothing to offer.

Unfortunately, this is probably the truth. The whole orthodox Jew/Netanyahu combination is really bad for Israel (and in consequence Palestinians).

[Theodarzna]

This has nothing to do with Sheikh Jarrah

The pretext for the latest missile barrage and social media incitement is Sheikh Jarrah, where a long-running legal dispute was scheduled for a court hearing. This had been a private matter between Jews who have an old property deed from the 1800s and the residents of four homes who have lived there for decades and do not want to pay rent. It is the kind of situation that should be handled by a local municipal court. This could happen in any other country and there would be no public interest. But this is Jerusalem, so you have to view everything in the context of the political situation. You also have to ask yourself: who stands to gain from political violence right now?

After Palestinian PM Mahmoud Abbas canceled highly anticipated elections, Hamas simply saw an opportunity it could not pass up, exploiting the Sheikh Jarrah situation and an already tense environment during the holy day of Leylat Al Qadr and Jerusalem Day. Hamas is currently running a social media campaign calling for Palestinians to incite violence during demonstrations in Jerusalem and elsewhere. They are encouraging Palestinian youth to throw their lives away by hurling rocks and makeshift bombs at police.

Hamas-led riots outside of the Al Aqsa Mosque prove that Israeli police are not at fault for the dangers preventing Muslims from praying. Hamas has incited mobs and provoked violence with the intention of framing Israel for ethnic cleansing. Just today, provocateurs filled several busses to travel to Jerusalem to participate in the “historic” riots and answer the Hamas call to incite violence.

Most significantly, Hamas leaders ordered hundreds of rockets to be launched in the general direction of major Israeli cities. Many of them did this from the comfort of their luxury villas in Doha, Damascus, or elsewhere, knowing full well they themselves are safe from any blowback. It is important to remember that Hamas’s penchant for murder is almost matched by their blundering incompetence, which is partly the reason one out of every three of their rockets crashes into Gaza where the only possible victims are Palestinian. They also apparently shelled Abu Ghosh, an ancient Arab village.

(Source)

This guy, himself an Arab, rightly pointing out that this is all over not even a building, four homes owned by an old Jewish family bought in the 1800s, WELL before Israel existed or any of the wars, and tenants who refuse to pay any rent and haven't for decades. In ANY other country this would have been a legal matter of little interest, and given the tenants refusal to pay being largely ethnic prejudice and a sense of indignity at the idea of acknowledging someone as a landlord based on their race, these tenants would garner no sympathy. But suddenly, thanks to Hamas shenanigans, these four families indignant outrage at the idea of ever having to pay rent is being called a genocide and ethnic cleansing and has led to an actual war and race riots and the murder of people across the region by angry mobs, both Israeli and Arab mobs across the country.

[tehdang]

Demanding someone pay rent or renew a lease even if they don't like the race of the person who they owe rent to is a war crime? Remember, this is over a rent dispute on an apartment building.

Is it really over a handful of squatters from the Jordanian conquest area, in a decade-long legal dispute? I mean, really? I’d say the overt cause is purely pretextual, in the sense that WW1 wasn’t really about a Serbian assassinating an Austrian.

[Theodarzna]

Is it really over a handful of squatters from the Jordanian conquest area, in a decade-long legal dispute? I mean, really? I’d say the overt cause is purely pretextual, in the sense that WW1 wasn’t really about a Serbian assassinating an Austrian.

Possibly, but like these four houses are the center of this. Literally over a few families who despite agreeing to pay rent in the late 80's and being granted protected tenant status by the Israeli courts, you know Israel.... that country we are told hungers for Arab blood and seeks only genocide sided against the Jews who had the title and told them they had to accept these people as tenants and honor the lease as long as the tenants agreed to pay rent. Which they didn't do for decades, literally decades, this dispute started in the late 80s and only now, when it looks like FINALLY these peoples efforts to flaunt their own signed agreements does it explode and you have these activists with a rather peculiar obsession with Israel proclaim people getting served an eviction notice after decades of accommodation as basically ethnic cleansing on par with perhaps even worse than the Nazi Holocaust.

[PACOX]

Sure...until Israel uses nukes.

But they'll roof knock first so it will be OK..

[Draco-Onis]

I never said that. But unlike you, I don't let my emotions dictate what I say. And I certainly don't vilify Israel at the cost of my credibility. Their settlement policy is bullshit and needs to stop. It doesn't cost me anything to point that out. At the same time, though, any rhetoric that defends a terrorist group that wants to annihilate the Israeli state is not going to find my approval.

This tepid push back doesn't excuse the fact that you keep repeating propaganda, Israel is no victim here they have no incentive to seek peace. Unless something changes this will continue to be a slow motion genocide with every intentional flare up increasing the body count. There are people who joke about it but it wouldn't surprise me if Bibi pulled the strings to have the police irritate the Palestinians during Ramadan to keep power and stay out of jail.

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This has nothing to do with Sheikh Jarrah


(Source)

This guy, himself an Arab, rightly pointing out that this is all over not even a building, four homes owned by an old Jewish family bought in the 1800s, WELL before Israel existed or any of the wars, and tenants who refuse to pay any rent and haven't for decades. In ANY other country this would have been a legal matter of little interest, and given the tenants refusal to pay being largely ethnic prejudice and a sense of indignity at the idea of acknowledging someone as a landlord based on their race, these tenants would garner no sympathy. But suddenly, thanks to Hamas shenanigans, these four families indignant outrage at the idea of ever having to pay rent is being called a genocide and ethnic cleansing and has led to an actual war and race riots and the murder of people across the region by angry mobs, both Israeli and Arab mobs across the country.

Okay let's pretend you are right, what's your excuse for them blockading and harassing Palestinians during Ramadan?

[Felya]

There are people who joke about it but it wouldn't surprise me if Bibi pulled the strings to have the police irritate the Palestinians during Ramadan to keep power and stay out of jail.

Then those people are idiots, who think irritating Muslims, leads to war.

Okay let's pretend you are right, what's your excuse for them blockading and harassing Palestinians during Ramadan?

The official statement by police, is they started it...

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Sure...until Israel uses nukes.

On whom? How do you nuke Palestinians, without nuking Israel?

[Slant]

This tepid push back doesn't excuse the fact that you keep repeating propaganda, Israel is no victim here they have no incentive to seek peace. Unless something changes this will continue to be a slow motion genocide with every intentional flare up increasing the body count. There are people who joke about it but it wouldn't surprise me if Bibi pulled the strings to have the police irritate the Palestinians during Ramadan to keep power and stay out of jail.

I never said Israel was a victim. It's not a "tepid push back", it's me stating a fact. If you like it or not. Slow motion genocide? That's cute. At this rate they'll be going for centuries before I stop calling you out for the misuse of that term. The total lack of self-awareness is embarassing, mate. Stop it.

[Theodarzna]

Okay let's pretend you are right, what's your excuse for them blockading and harassing Palestinians during Ramadan?

From further down in that link:

Hamas-led riots outside of the Al Aqsa Mosque prove that Israeli police are not at fault for the dangers preventing Muslims from praying. Hamas has incited mobs and provoked violence with the intention of framing Israel for ethnic cleansing. Just today, provocateurs filled several busses to travel to Jerusalem to participate in the “historic” riots and answer the Hamas call to incite violence.

Which, yes, Hamas called for riots, and the rioters were using the Al-Aqsa Mosque as a spot to go to to tell police "HAHAHA Can't touch me here". So I guess not only can an Israeli never expect a rent check on their own property if an Arab was granted a lease to it by a hostile army a few decades ago, even if the property was bought before Israel even existed, because as this thread has established it is both a warcrime and literal genocide to expect an Arab to pay an Israeli rent; doubly so when they even agree to do so in writing. And I lack terms to describe the apparent injustice of not letting a Hamas led riot use a religious structure as a "You can't touch me!" safe zone or really do anything to stop the riot carried out to stop the eviction of four Arab families whose only action was not paying rent for decades despite the Israeli courts moving Heaven and Earth to keep them in the houses and them signing an agreement decades ago that they would actually pay rent.

I guess the only solution is.... What? Jews cannot own land? possibly anywhere since that might be a war-crime and an ethnic cleansing, and they definitely cannot expect a tenant to pay a single rent check I guess.

[Ettan]

Well to start of I do not care who is right, who is wrong, what is up or what is down.
To me might makes right. Nothing more to it.

Here the continued existence of either side proves an existential threat to the other.
I say just roll them over once and for all and be done with it.

End it, permanently in a matter of weeks. No more Palestine.
Dissplace 5.2M people, potentially take the lives of tens of thousands.
or
Do nothing and continue half assed meashures to have the conflict drag on for perpetuity.

And no, not arguing for genocide here either per say: the essence of what I feel like we have here is the train track dilemma.
Would you swap the tracks, you know nothing will stop this train, it will kill alot of people irregardless of your actions; but you can take drastic action. Action that will divert the train down a more frictionless path.
Or we could say take a short term hit for the long term positive.

It is abit of a strech to deem the conflict an existential threat to Israel currently, but only once you isolate it, if you take into account the larger picture it poses a very real threat (not that the other regional powers actually cares about the plight of the palesitinans, but as a cause for war and a propaganda instrument it works perfectly to divert attention from their own issues).

And lets not to forget that while these rockets shoot at israel are filled curde explosives for now, in the future; this may not be the case:
that is precisely what from the Israeli pov makes the whole situation rather unacceptable/ unsustainable for the long run.

So with that in mind their aim must be to crucify the opposition, not for what the have done, but for what they are capable of doing.
And dont pretend they wont, hamas will use any means they can. Once their current operations reveals itself to be as ineffective as it is for their cause; they will have no other course of action but to step it up a knoch.
This leaves no real option for the israeli side, they must declaw this threat.
Homo homini lupus est


“All courses of action are risky, so prudence is not in avoiding danger (it's impossible), but calculating risk and acting decisively. Make mistakes of ambition and not mistakes of sloth. Develop the strength to do bold things, not the strength to suffer.”
― N.M.

Anyway thats my 10cents il have the popcorn ready whatever the course of action, and may the right side win (somehow it always does)
ps seems like the show is just about to start tonight.

[Theodarzna]

How about they just stop seizing homes from people without compensating?

Rewind time, these four families were granted leases on four homes seized by the Jordanian Army in 1949 which had been purchased by a Jewish family in 1875 and of-course under Jordanian law the idea that a Jew has the right to own things is not recognized, and when Israel wins in the late 60s said title holders want their stuff back. AND after a court case the Israeli court, let me repeat, The Israeli Court, rules that the Arabs are protected tenants and the title holders have to respect a lease they didn't even agree to that is forced upon them by Jordan who only granted the lease because Jews as property owners is illegal according to the Jordanians at the time, on the condition that the Arabs residing there pay rent, which they agree to do and then refuse to do for DECADES while it goes through the most Byzantine court battle ever is Israel seizing "Their" homes without compensation? These families that have lived RENT FREE since JORDAN seized four homes owned by a Jewish family purchased when the Ottoman Empire still existed "had their homes stolen?". Dude? What are you going on about?

[Combatbutler]

Here we go again, I wonder how long the whole thing will last this time.

[Theodarzna]

Here we go again, I wonder how long the whole thing will last this time.

I guess Sunday, that is when the UN Security Council is going to convene.

[Polyxo]

I don't think it's really accurate to say Israel's crimes against Palestinians are comparable to Germany's crimes against Jewish people in WW2. I'd say it's more comparable to something like Serbian ethnic cleansing in the 90s.

If we're talking about standards Israel should be held to in limiting civilian casualties, let's consider the very low bar the US has set for itself in the region. For those familiar with contractors doing intelligence work leading up to things like drone strikes and other targeted killings, there's something called a 'plus one'. You have to have a known bad guy (like you know his name and you know he's there), and you're allowed to kill him, 'plus one' more person, without significant greater authorization for each individual strike. Even operating this way, the US has a pretty bad reputation, and Israel's nowhere near this discriminating.

Part of the problem of the conflict in general are the populations of Israel and Palestine themselves, and I blame Israel more for those changes. On the Palestinian side, especially in Gaza, the general narrative that people believe in, for better or worse, is that there's no way to just let bygones be bygones and live any semblance of a normal life. Even if you keep your head down, play nice, and be a model citizen, it's just a matter of time before the IDF bombs your home and business and kills you and your family, or Shabak arrests and tortures and indefinitely imprisons you or your family, so why bother with the peace process. On the other side of things, Israel's increasingly dominated politically by just plain hicks who want to live off the success of the Tel Aviv crowd, read the Torah all day, and then celebrate their prejudices through military action.

[Draco-Onis]

The official statement by police, is they started it..

Because the Israeli police are such a trust worthy source who absolutely don't do things like killing unarmed teenagers and children for shits and giggles.

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SNIP.

They placed the barricades then removed them after things escalated then blamed Hamas.

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I never said Israel was a victim. It's not a "tepid push back", it's me stating a fact. If you like it or not. Slow motion genocide? That's cute. At this rate they'll be going for centuries before I stop calling you out for the misuse of that term. The total lack of self-awareness is embarassing, mate. Stop it.

As long as they are useful political tools they keep some around, we all know the conclusion here all roads lead to more dead bodies. As more extremists take power it will speed up don't worry.

[Theodarzna]

They placed the barricades then removed them after things escalated then blamed Hamas.

Things escalated, that isn't really their fault is it? I mean what? Shall we ban Jews from owning land and property so as not to offend the sensibilities of the Arabs? Man, who am I talking to here Richard Spencer? Hamas called for a riot and Israel decided to step in and try and control a race riot over four families dogged refusal to pay rent after decades of being asked nicely by the courts.

[Draco-Onis]

Things escalated, that isn't really their fault is it?

Oh yea totally the fault of Palestinians not the Israeli police who put the barriers there /s

[Theodarzna]

Oh yea totally the fault of Palestinians not the Israeli police who put the barriers there /s

So, why is the barriers a problem when there is an active riot going on? I mean, man if your an Arab not only is it a war-crime and a genocide to ask you to pay rent to a Jew, its also a serious atrocity to try and prevent a riot and try and tamp down on a Hamas call for an insurrection and violence.

Today I learned, not only is it a serious atrocity to expect someone to honor a lease agreement if they deem the other party in that agreement to be of an inferior race, but its a double war-crime worthy of the ICC to prevent a riot that demands they never have to pay a rent check. That is about what I am getting out of your position.

[Draco-Onis]

So, why is the barriers a problem when there is an active riot going on?

The riots started because they had barriers there to begin with, they then removed them and put a stronger police presence. You seem to be living in an alternate reality, Israel brought the barriers down to lower the temperature after they started it they didn't keep them up.