1. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I meant more historically, who started that phrase... not some internet troll digging...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_makes_right

    The notion has been around as a justification for morality/ruling power since at least antiquity. It pops up as early as in Homer, so in some for or another it likely existed before.

    It's a bad argument, but it has been wildly popular with autocrats and social darwinsts (fascists).

  2. #582
    blowing up media offices lol cmon now. collective punishment is a war crime

  3. #583
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_makes_right

    The notion has been around as a justification for morality/ruling power since at least antiquity. It pops up as early as in Homer, so in some for or another it likely existed before.

    It's a bad argument, but it has been wildly popular with autocrats and social darwinsts (fascists).
    Just going by the Wikipedia article for a lack of historical quote knowledge, it seems they didn't quite catch up to that... "right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." That sounds very different. It implies not that what the strong do is right, but it is what they can do. Not as a justification but as a matter of fact.

    Same for Homer's "woe to the conquered", which sympathises with the weak, rather than legitimises the mighty. It's only Plato's Callicles (Dialoges) that's quoted in the Darwinian sense that you described. And Plato uses him only as a counterpoint to get his actual point across, that "nature affirms that to do injustice is more disgraceful than to suffer it, that equality is justice, and that a man such as Callicles' ideal is like a leaky jar, insatiable and unhappy."

    If you move on to the next sections, they use it in a manner that I described, from third parties or the defeated to describe an assumed attitude of the strong, rather than the strong using it to justify their actions.

    I think when we use it in debates, it's mostly used as a tool to discredit the "mighty" side of the discussion, in a sarcastic tone. I've never heard anyone actually go seriously for that phrase as a justification for their own action. It is pretty much as I thought.
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  4. #584
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    People who've been living in their homes for 70 years are not "refugees".
    My grandmother was 80...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
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  5. #585
    Blowing up international press building is a good way to rationalize your ethnic cleansing and forcing Nuremberg Laws into action.

    I wonder what comes next, maybe putting people into trains and gassing the whole wagons with children in it and yelling "they threw rockets to us".

    Ohh god, I love how history repeats itself.

  6. #586
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Um, since we're on that point... whoever said might makes right, actually? Like, if you were the bully, would you go and seriously say "Well, might makes right!"?
    I myself never thought it was said for the reason that history and the actions of conquerors have made it self-evident.

  7. #587
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    But trying to make them leave the region?
    No one is saying this... ya’ll are fighting shadows.

    At this point you are so caught up in hyperbole, that you are arguing against lifting restrictions on refugees. I would understand an argument where aid and opening the border to refugees, is a bare minimum. But, this? Why? It’s the best thing that could have happened to my family... why wouldn’t a solution that I personally am grateful for, not be something I want for others?

    At this point, the only way I see a discussion of reports, where Palestinians have to choose between bomb shelter and covid, is if I assert a conspiracy theory of it being used as a bio weapon. People being stuck between artillery fire and the plague, is simply not enough.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  8. #588
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    sip.
    The point is that's it's a matter of perspective.

    Yes, as a moral argument is fucking shit and it's almost self evidently so, but that hasn't stopped lunatics from using it whenever they could get away with it.

  9. #589
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    You know, you have a mean, sharp tounge at times...
    Thank you... that’s the nicest thing anyone said to me on this forum, since Kellhound called me genuine.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  10. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    No one is saying this... ya’ll are fighting shadows.

    At this point you are so caught up in hyperbole, that you are arguing against lifting restrictions on refugees. I would understand an argument where aid and opening the border to refugees, is a bare minimum. But, this? Why? It’s the best thing that could have happened to my family... why wouldn’t a solution that I personally am grateful for, not be something I want for others?

    At this point, the only way I see a discussion of reports, where Palestinians have to choose between bomb shelter and covid, is if I assert a conspiracy theory of it being used as a bio weapon. People being stuck between artillery fire and the plague, is simply not enough.
    We aren't arguing against that, that's just the straw man you built, because you got triggered that people had the nerve to condemn Israel for perpetrating ethnic cleansing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  11. #591
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    We aren't arguing against that, that's just the straw man you built, because you got triggered that people had the nerve to condemn Israel for perpetrating ethnic cleansing.
    You are attacking me, by asserting your Supreme knowledge of Ben Shapiro, as I was saying this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    I condemn Israel’s bombings. It’s not a hard thing to do...
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Natanyahu’s brazen attempt to remain in power. Using actions of a terrorist group, to unleash otter chaos.
    I literally responded to you numerous times about increasing refugees, with you replying with Ben Shapiro. Then Ednus tells me 70 year old are not refugees... I am not the subject of this thread...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    You are attacking me, by asserting your Supreme knowledge of Ben Shapiro, as I was saying this:




    I literally responded to you numerous times about increasing refugees, with you replying with Ben Shapiro. Then Ednus tells me 70 year old are not refugees... I am not the subject of this thread...
    Nah, that's just you projecting, because you got outraged that we had the audacity to call out ethnic cleansing.

    You called it virtue signaling. You can also continue lying about what Endus said, by ignoring the context.

    Personally, I think the primary goal should be to stop ethnic cleansing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  13. #593
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Nah, that's just you projecting, because you got outraged that we had the audacity to call out ethnic cleansing.
    Actually, what I have shown, is that someone can describe every single horror currently taking place, but you won’t care, unless it’s called ethnic cleansing. Meaning that the only thing you care about, is it being called ethnic cleansing. You don’t actually care what it means...

    You called it virtue signaling. You can also continue lying about what Endus said, by ignoring the context.
    What’s the context? Who did he quote by saying “refugees” in quotes:

    People who've been living in their homes for 70 years are not "refugees".
    Was the context me saying opening up the borders to refugees or something else?

    Personally, I think the primary goal should be to stop ethnic cleansing.
    No, your primary goal is for people to ignore the shelling of innocent people. To ignore there being no home to return to. To look the other way, when people point to conflict of a plague and a bomb shelter. The only thing you care about, is that people say ethnic cleansing. You will attack people for not saying ethnic cleansing, when they actually describe the horrors of what’s happening.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  14. #594
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Actually, what I have shown, is that someone can describe every single horror currently taking place, but you won’t care, unless it’s called ethnic cleansing. Meaning that the only thing you care about, is it being called ethnic cleansing. You don’t actually care what it means...



    What’s the context? Who did he quote by saying “refugees” in quotes:



    Was the context me saying opening up the borders to refugees or something else?



    No, your primary goal is for people to ignore the shelling of innocent people. To ignore there being no home to return to. To look the other way, when people point to conflict of a plague and a bomb shelter. The only thing you care about, is that people say ethnic cleansing. You will attack people for not saying ethnic cleansing, when they actually describe the horrors of what’s happening.
    Nope, you are simply lying, and building another straw man. My sole concern is for the innocent victims.

    Of course, I'd rather stop the ethnic cleansing, because it's hard to be a refugee, when you're been murdered by the Israeli government.

    Your argument boils down to trying to get the Jews that survive out of Germany and Poland, instead of stopping Hitler from murdering the Jews in the first place.

    You're talking to someone who doesn't even want borders. You are picking literally the worst person in these forums to make that argument against.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  15. #595
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Nope, you are simply lying, and building another straw man. My sole concern is for the innocent victims.
    Then why does it mater so much that people call it ethnic cleansing? Why do you never say anything specific?

    Of course, I'd rather stop the ethnic cleansing, because it's hard to be a refugee, when you're been murdered by the Israeli government.
    It’s also very hard to return to a home that doesn’t fucking exist. What do you think happens to homes that got destroyed, when the bombing stops? You think this is some matrix shit and they just materialize from out of space?

    People lost their homes. There is no home to return to. This isn’t a video game level you just restart. The dead are not rising up...

    Your argument boils down to trying to get the Jews that survive out of Germany and Poland, instead of stopping Hitler from murdering the Jews in the first place.
    No, my argument boils down to... turning away boats full of Jewish children before WW2, isn’t a mistake we should repeat. We should accept those boats and tell them that anyone can come here. Bring more boats... not have rules in place that set arbitrary limits, that in effect are turning away boats full of children, just as we did before WW2.

    You're talking to someone who doesn't even want borders. You are picking literally the worst person in these forums to make that argument against.
    You are not the subject of this thread, anymore than I am...
    Last edited by Felya; 2021-05-15 at 01:42 PM.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Then why does it mater so much that people call it ethnic cleansing? Why do you never say anything specific?



    It’s also very hard to return to a home that doesn’t fucking exist. What do you think happens to homes that got destroyed, when the bombing stops? You think this is some matrix shit and they just materialize from out of space?

    People lost their homes. There is no home to return to. This isn’t a video game level you just restart. The dead are not rising up...



    No, my argument boils down to... instead of turning away boats full of Jewish children before WW2, isn’t a mistake we should repeat. We should accept those boats and tell them that anyone can come here. Bring more boats... not have rules in place that set arbitrary limits, that in effect are turning away boats full of children, just as we did before WW2.



    You are not the subject of this thread, anymore than I am...
    It seems to matter to you, you are the one who got triggered by it. You're the one that is pissed off about using it. I love that you keep trying to argue as if I don't support freedom of movement. Seriously, you should pay attention to the people you want to argue with. You're literally arguing against the guy in these forums who supports freedom of movement the most.

    The rest is simply your straw man, keep beating up on that bad boy. You got this!!!
    Last edited by Machismo; 2021-05-15 at 01:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  17. #597
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It seems to matter to you, you are the one who got triggered by it. You're the one that is pissed off about using it. I love that you keep trying to argue as if I don't support freedom of movement. Seriously, you should pay attention to the people you ant to argue with.

    The rest is simply your straw man, keep beating up on that bad boy. You got this!!!
    You didn’t even read it...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  18. #598
    Israel needs to be held responsible for this shit. Bombing the press because they’re showing how awful you are isn’t a good sign.

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    You didn’t even read it...
    Oh, I did.

    It's more of your straw man bullshit.

    I'm not arguing what you claimed, neither is Endus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  20. #600
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    What did I assert in that post, for it to be a strawman? That entire post is asking why saying ethnic cleansing matters, then once again defining my position. None of that constitutes an assertion... it can’t be strawman...



    Not possible... I’m not calling you triggered... I’m not defining anyone’s argument. You were actually misrepresenting my argument by saying this:



    Is a strawman... my response defining my argument, can’t be a strawman...

    You didn’t read...
    Your entire argument was. You keep claiming we don't support refugees.

    Meanwhile, I'm here, opposing ethnic cleansing, and calling for it to be stopped. You called it virtue signaling.

    Imagine that.

    Of course, I support your freedom to not call ethnic cleansing... ethnic cleansing. I also support your freedom to be outraged by those who do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

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