Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[Cthulhu 2020]

"Our DM revealed that he was a Zionist, and the campaign he had made was an allegory for the Palestinian Israel conflict. He is ending the campaign because he feels emotional that we keep siding with the faction that's supposed to represent Palestine."

I wonder how many Zionists will critically analyze their position of violent colonial settling on Palestinian land and how bad it is?

[Endus]

Just to make the point, "I support Palestine and that it should be a free nation" is not the same thing as "I support Hamas", or "I believe Israel should be exterminated".

If you can't understand the distinction, it is entirely a problem with your own Zionist extremism.

I will say, though, the pro-Israeli-Genocide advocates who defend Israel's attacks also implicitly justify October 7th, themselves. If Israel's "just defending itself", then so was Hamas. It's not like there haven't been hostile actions by Israel that would have been taken as provocation. This didn't all just suddenly start on October 7th. But if all rules can get set aside in the name of "self defense", then Hamas' attacks are justifiable self defense.

I think that's an incredibly dishonest and manipulative framing, obviously. But it's the framing that pro-Israel supporters use to defend Israel. I'm just holding them to their stated principles, and applying them equally.

I condemn both sides, and stand with the innocents who have to suffer for the belligerents in charge and their mutual hatreds.

[Edge-]

i'll take "thinks that probably totally happened in reality for sure because someone tweeted or blueskied or threaded about it on the internet" for $1,000, alex.

i mean sure that's possible and all but that sounds like one of those things where in a few weeks the person admits they made it all up for clout because everything is for clout nowadays and it's dumb.

i'm not terribly interested in signal boosting unverifiable anecdotes like this, because it's far too easy to just devolve into basically a competition for who has the best creative writers.

[Elder Millennial]

Sounds like someone is manufacturing excuses for growing anti-semitism. You're definitely not one of those "normies" though, right? Right?

No one needs to manufacture "excuses". Israel is providing them by the boatload every news cycle.

[tehdang]

where external pressure needs to get into the realm of sanctions and possibly threatening the use of force to reign it in. Israel isn't just making itself look horrible, but it's making everyone else complicit.

And that's what people are increasingly refusing to stomach.

Enough is enough.

I know Israel and its supporters don't quite realize this yet, but they are approaching a very dangerous tipping point in public perception. Namely the point where "normies" and the average citizen start thinking "Maybe the Jews really are the problem."

And that's a dangerous and slippery slope.

If you like what Israel was doing, but want it to do it faster and rougher and with less external intrusion, you should immediately enact sanctions and threaten the use of force. It's exactly the international allied relationships that are delaying Rafah and forcing the publication of all the aid details and operations. American Zionists have even argued that the end of aid would be a boon to Israel, since it invariably comes with strings attached and (they argue) distorts both American and Israeli politics negatively.

If you take away Iron Dome missiles for Israeli defense, then Israel is forced to invade and occupy the next time sustained rocket fire is directed against population centers (as opposed to evacuated areas of the north).

This is all not to mention the swift backlash against any idiot in the US that actually wants sanctions and not just empty threats, or will threaten force and are prepared to follow through with force. The "normies" that might sour on some Israeli actions in polls will rocket back to supporting Israel so fast you'll be reeling. It's the "too online" contingent that actually believe a constellation of apartheid state/war crimes & genocide/open air prison/warmongering oppressor. And they aren't very populous.

[Karreck]

I condemn both sides, and stand with the innocents who have to suffer for the belligerents in charge and their mutual hatreds.

Same Endus. I am on Team "No More Dead Civilians".

[Jastall]

The other part that gets completely missed is that this is a VERY blatant, and wide-spread movement to aid the plight of the Palestinian people. I remember the Gazan Blockades being a full on "neither side is right" affair nearly 20 years ago, and for the most part all discussion was it being a wholly ME problem. It's a toddler (HAMAS) throwing an absolutely petulant, and barbaric attack worthy of condemnation, but the response has outed Israel on a global stage to this degree. It's why "Oct 7 means we are almost free", because the response has been overwhelmingly sympathetic to the Palestinian people.

I don't empathize with the protestor's language, but adding nuance really muddles shit. Terrorism or Freedom Fighters? Oppression or justified defense? If this is Islamofascism, then I can say blatantly Israel is performing Genocide, because if we are not to apply interpretation and allow for nuance to one side but not the other we've reached critical mass. Also "islamofascism" is the kind of shit edgy "atheists" were shitting out 10 years ago. It was old then, and it's old now.

I have read a few people on here are Muslim, I am unsure but @Elegiac was one I think (or at least has better understanding than me), I would like to see their response to what I am saying, or if I'm being way off kilter; but not really that interested in people looking for gotchas like "ha ha people have morals that's funn- HEY I'M UPSET BY WHAT YOU SAID!"

Israel has certainly worked overtime to shatter whatever sympathy Oct 7th gave them. It's similar to what America did after 9/11, only spedrun.

I do think it's not close to tipping the balance of public opinion in the USA, the place where it matters the most by a lot. No one in Israel will lose sleep if 10-20% more Swedes or Canadians side with the Palestinians now. But in the medium term, if it means more Americans think that way, and that eventually translates to diminished support in Congress and the like, that's a lot more worrying for them. There comes a point where the atrocities of Oct 7th stop justifying the ongoing ones in the eyes of a less passionate observer, and I think they indeed are moving towards that point.

[Draco-Onis]

SNIP

Still waiting for your reply on what the people in the West Bank did in your eyes that they deserved to be raped, pillaged and murdered by the IDF and settlers.

[Elder Millennial]

If you like what Israel was doing, but want it to do it faster and rougher and with less external intrusion, you should immediately enact sanctions and threaten the use of force. It's exactly the international allied relationships that are delaying Rafah and forcing the publication of all the aid details and operations. American Zionists have even argued that the end of aid would be a boon to Israel, since it invariably comes with strings attached and (they argue) distorts both American and Israeli politics negatively.

If Israel wants to go the way of Rhodesia, go for it. Hey, we might just finally get a one state solution akin to South Africa, not sure that's what Zionists want, but good luck.

If you take away Iron Dome missiles for Israeli defense, then Israel is forced to invade and occupy the next time sustained rocket fire is directed against population centers (as opposed to evacuated areas of the north).

Invade what? Everything Israel can invade it already invaded. Or you think Israel is going to take Tehran? Good luck with that one too. Especially without US support, US munitions, spare parts for its airforce etc.

This is all not to mention the swift backlash against any idiot in the US that actually wants sanctions and not just empty threats, or will threaten force and are prepared to follow through with force. The "normies" that might sour on some Israeli actions in polls will rocket back to supporting Israel so fast you'll be reeling. It's the "too online" contingent that actually believe a constellation of apartheid state/war crimes & genocide/open air prison/warmongering oppressor. And they aren't very populous.

The point is that Israel is tipping the scale.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/611375/...rity-down.aspx

Young adults show the biggest decline in ratings of Israel, dropping from 64% favorable among 18- to 34-year-olds in 2023 to 38%. Middle-aged adults (those aged 35 to 54) show a smaller but still significant drop, from 66% to 55%, while there has been no meaningful change among adults aged 55 and older.

Relying on boomers support has a rapidly declining expiration date.

[PickleballAce]

If Israel wants to go the way of Rhodesia, go for it. Hey, we might just finally get a one state solution akin to South Africa, not sure that's what Zionists want, but good luck..

You are one of those 'normies' looking for an excuse to pin it on all Jews...aren't you?

Try not to be too enthusiastic about the Palestinian "Final Solution" for Israel, okay habibi? History is not on the side of Islamofascists here. You're only setting yourself up for disappointment.

[tehdang]

If Israel wants to go the way of Rhodesia, go for it. Hey, we might just finally get a one state solution akin to South Africa, not sure that's what Zionists want, but good luck.

Granted, I think there's no danger of it because I dispute most of the tripe that is strangely more convincing to others.

Invade what? Everything Israel can invade it already invaded. Or you think Israel is going to take Tehran? Good luck with that one too. Especially without US support, US munitions, spare parts for its airforce etc.

For example, the US decides to issue an arms embargo and Israel runs out of Iron Dome rockets. The next time Hezbollah strikes further south, Israel would be compelled to invade and occupy the south of Lebanon in order to stop the missiles instead of intercepting them. The continued arms supply enables Israel to have a better option, which is little tit-for-tat strikes on the launch areas, while protecting its civilians.

The point is that Israel is tipping the scale.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/611375/...rity-down.aspx

Relying on boomers support has a rapidly declining expiration date.

You have a point here, but it does rely on young adults continuing to believe as you do as they age. Time has a way of converting a lot of the pro-Palestinian zealots into moderate Israel supporters by observing the way Israel is treated and how Israel's enemies work.

Like I said earlier, the current polling reflects no serious politician or group holding political power actually threatening impactful sanctions or actual military measures against Israel if they don't change policy. People are a little more open to view Israel unfavorably when there is no real chance of losing an ally in the middle east, or seeing dead Israelis day after day on the TV screens. I'd like to see the polls when there's a vote on the table and commentators are debating the future scenes of dead Jews in Haifa--when it isn't just a younger demographic reacting to tik toks from Gaza. I expect the same polled contingent to move if there was actually the possibility that the legislature and executive unite to "sanctions and possibly threatening the use of force." At least the upper half of that population contingent.

I'm not seeing much youth polling on potential American arms embargoes or threats of military force unless Israel acts different, so I'm discussing this issue in the absence of them. It would have to go beyond questions on "ending American aid to Israel" (as I said, some Zionists support), and into "arms embargo until Israel ends the war" or "threaten military action unless Israel adopts a permanent cease-fire."

[Cthulhu 2020]

Just to make the point, "I support Palestine and that it should be a free nation" is not the same thing as "I support Hamas", or "I believe Israel should be exterminated".

If you can't understand the distinction, it is entirely a problem with your own Zionist extremism.

I will say, though, the pro-Israeli-Genocide advocates who defend Israel's attacks also implicitly justify October 7th, themselves. If Israel's "just defending itself", then so was Hamas. It's not like there haven't been hostile actions by Israel that would have been taken as provocation. This didn't all just suddenly start on October 7th. But if all rules can get set aside in the name of "self defense", then Hamas' attacks are justifiable self defense.

I think that's an incredibly dishonest and manipulative framing, obviously. But it's the framing that pro-Israel supporters use to defend Israel. I'm just holding them to their stated principles, and applying them equally.

I condemn both sides, and stand with the innocents who have to suffer for the belligerents in charge and their mutual hatreds.

We all know why Zionists claim anyone who supports Palestinian freedom supports Hamas and wants to kill Jews. They know their own side is committing abhorrent war crimes and they have zero way to morally grandstand unless their political opposites think like they do.

- - - Updated - - -

i'll take "thinks that probably totally happened in reality for sure because someone tweeted or blueskied or threaded about it on the internet" for $1,000, alex.

i mean sure that's possible and all but that sounds like one of those things where in a few weeks the person admits they made it all up for clout because everything is for clout nowadays and it's dumb.

i'm not terribly interested in signal boosting unverifiable anecdotes like this, because it's far too easy to just devolve into basically a competition for who has the best creative writers.

I'm gonna need a source that any of this is true, from the AP preferably.

[Odinfrost]

You are one of those 'normies' looking for an excuse to pin it on all Jews...aren't you?

Try not to be too enthusiastic about the Palestinian "Final Solution" for Israel, okay habibi? History is not on the side of Islamofascists here. You're only setting yourself up for disappointment.

Where do you buy your weed? I need to know to avoid that shitty dealer.
Where did you come to the conclusion that anyone would 'pin all blame on jews'?
It's pretty clear it's specifically the actions of Isreal we're talking about here, not the entirety of the religion

[Mayhem]

Sounds like someone is manufacturing excuses for growing antisemitism. You're definitely not one of those "normies" though, right? Right?

Uhm, people who suffer from antisemitism give exactly that explanation why you shouldn't say Israel does xyz but the Israeli government because the former gives antisemites an excuse to hate Jews. Therefore, if the Israeli government itself lends credence to the accusations, then they stoke the fire of antisemitism themselves.

I had a hard time understanding why you can say xyz country does this and everyone understand it's not the citizens you're talking about but the government, but when talking about Israel it's automatically the citizens and not the government.

As if bigots need a very specific wording to hate Jews.

[Elegiac]

"Our DM revealed that he was a Zionist, and the campaign he had made was an allegory for the Palestinian Israel conflict. He is ending the campaign because he feels emotional that we keep siding with the faction that's supposed to represent Palestine."

I wonder how many Zionists will critically analyze their position of violent colonial settling on Palestinian land and how bad it is?

Reminds me of them having to nerf communism in Victoria 3 because it ended up dominating every other economic system, rofl.

- - - Updated - - -

i'll take "thinks that probably totally happened in reality for sure because someone tweeted or blueskied or threaded about it on the internet" for $1,000, alex.

i mean sure that's possible and all but that sounds like one of those things where in a few weeks the person admits they made it all up for clout because everything is for clout nowadays and it's dumb.

i'm not terribly interested in signal boosting unverifiable anecdotes like this, because it's far too easy to just devolve into basically a competition for who has the best creative writers.

I’d be more skeptical of it if horror stories like “our DM wants two of our PCs to fuck and its making everyone uncomfortable” weren’t so commonplace.

To say nothing of the very weird phenomenon that is extremely religious midwesterners playing D&D for some reason. So I’m going to rate this as “plausible” when one factors in the above as well as the Zionist victim complex.

[Muzjhath]

i'll take "thinks that probably totally happened in reality for sure because someone tweeted or blueskied or threaded about it on the internet" for $1,000, alex.

i mean sure that's possible and all but that sounds like one of those things where in a few weeks the person admits they made it all up for clout because everything is for clout nowadays and it's dumb.

i'm not terribly interested in signal boosting unverifiable anecdotes like this, because it's far too easy to just devolve into basically a competition for who has the best creative writers.

I found the thread and it makes a lot of sense.

[ati87]

Uhm, people who suffer from antisemitism give exactly that explanation why you shouldn't say Israel does xyz but the Israeli government because the former gives antisemites an excuse to hate Jews. Therefore, if the Israeli government itself lends credence to the accusations, then they stoke the fire of antisemitism themselves.

I had a hard time understanding why you can say xyz country does this and everyone understand it's not the citizens you're talking about but the government, but when talking about Israel it's automatically the citizens and not the government.

As if bigots need a very specific wording to hate Jews.

I don't think (and this includes for every country) that you can seperate the elected government from its people. Netanyahu doesn't become the longest servering PM of Israel out of a vacuum, the citizens either vote for him directly or vote for parties that push him even further to the right while keeping him power. Either way the policies of the government of Israel enjoys a broad support.

Also, the pro war genocide side has been holding all Palestinians (regardless of age, sex and born or not) responble for the actions of Hamas. If your (in general) on the side of pro war and conflict then don't be suprised that the other side holds you to the same standard and lets be clear, the pro war faction are holding the power in Israel.

[Mayhem]

I don't think (and this includes for every country) that you can seperate the elected government from its people. Netanyahu doesn't become the longest servering PM of Israel out of a vacuum, the citizens either vote for him directly or vote for parties that push him even further to the right.

Also, the pro war genocide side has been holding all Palestinians (regardless of age, sex and born or not) responble for the actions of Hamas. If your (in general) on the side of pro war and conflict then don't be suprised that the other side holds you to the same standard and lets be clear, the pro war faction are holding the power in Israel.

Eh, I somewhat understand both sides. I personally would never when talking about what a country does would think that this includes the ones not in support of the current government, but since there is no qualifying factor excluding them, it could be understood to mean every citizen.

Still, if one thinks antisemites need some very specific wording to be antisemites I have a bridge to sell them.

[Polgara]

Israel has certainly worked overtime to shatter whatever sympathy Oct 7th gave them. It's similar to what America did after 9/11, only spedrun.

I do think it's not close to tipping the balance of public opinion in the USA, the place where it matters the most by a lot. No one in Israel will lose sleep if 10-20% more Swedes or Canadians side with the Palestinians now. But in the medium term, if it means more Americans think that way, and that eventually translates to diminished support in Congress and the like, that's a lot more worrying for them. There comes a point where the atrocities of Oct 7th stop justifying the ongoing ones in the eyes of a less passionate observer, and I think they indeed are moving towards that point.

Agreed that the US still hasn't had a massive wave of support wash over, and it's slowly turning a needle, but (and this is entirely anecdotal, if evidence is presented or I can find decent conflicting information) I've not seen this level of Palestine support as spread as it is at the moment. I'm not saying it's the common trend, or stance, but it's the most widespread I can find information for, the closest was the blockades 20 years ago, but that's because I went back to see reports on it and what happened but not other incidents. Palestine seems to have strong common-ground support in a lot of countries, and it's being pressed as a key issue in nations too, with frequent protests and movements. The only reason I really wanted to bring it up is that adds context to the videos being posted; I don't read that "people want more Oct 7ths!" it's that it catalyzed a response that gave the Palestinian people more grounded support, in my opinion from what I've managed to dig up and observe.

I still think hammering people, especially those not in Israel of October 7 even in other countries is fucking stupid, the attack was reprehensible and deserves absolute condemnation, but I can at least understand there may be more to it than dumb shit like "islamofascism".

[Draco-Onis]

Israeli army broadcasts intimidating sounds to lure, kill, and forcibly displace civilians in the Nuseirat camp

Testimonies from camp residents, which were provided to the Euro-Med Monitor team, confirm that the sound of women screaming and babies crying was heard late at night on both Sunday and Monday. When some of the residents went out to investigate and tried to help, they were shot at by Israeli quadcopter drones. The sounds they had heard were in fact recordings playedby the Israeli drones, with the intent of forcing the camp’s residents out into the streets, where they could be easily targeted by snipers and other weaponry.

According to the testimonies, this tactic also involved broadcasting gunshots, armed conflicts, explosions, military vehicle movements, and occasionally songs in Hebrew and Arabic in order to psychologically intimidate civilians who live amid total darkness at night and total disconnection from the external world.

When asked about this the US dodged the question like Neo from the matrix.