Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[Theodarzna]

Let me ask you something, according to history who built Jerusalem? By logic first comes owns it all so pretty much all your claims are null.
And if you go by the claims that conquered area isn't legal most of the world should screew themeveles out of thier houses.

And just to add yes the Israeli court honors palestinians deeds, you can check back there were a lot of problematic jews settelments that were evacutaed and destroyed by Israeli army and police because it was on palestinian land. Heck in my city area there is palenstinians with olive tress, we don't build there and even let them in to do what they need with it when they need.

Lets just keep in mind, all of this is over an apartment building bought during the days of the Ottoman Empire, in a part of Jerusalem that fell under Jordanian Occupation after 1949. The buildings current leaseholders were granted those leases to live rent free in an apartment owned by a Jew, because Jordanian Law then and even somewhat now denies that Jews can own property or compel an Arab to pay them for it, and after 67' the building was under Israeli jurisdiction and the owner wanted control over his grandfathers building by then and the courts, the Israeli courts ruled that the Arabs couldn't be evicted but that they did have to actually pay rent. They refused and this sparked a MULTI-DECADE legal dispute where the Israeli courts did everything short of just taking away the title holders property deed to keep these Arab families in these apartments, even though it was issued to them under explicitly anti-Semitic laws and rulings by a hostile enemy army. Only now, when these tenants leases are finally expired and they've never honored a rent agreement and several are just out right squatting on the property does it look like they are going to be evicted and they riot and and Hamas starts a war and declares it a genocide to demand an Arab pay rent to a Jew.

This is all comically ridiculous.

[jonnysensible]

How does defeating hamas solve the issue? Why does Hamas exist in the first place is the question. How does "crushing" them help? You'd be crushing the only major opposition against Israel from the Palestinians, no matter how flawed they may be...


When you start killing peoples' children a population tends to move away from "peaceful" means to stop their own oppresssion.

lol hamas are terrorists. They are an militia that is funded by Iran. Literally an imperial Iranian puppet 'government'. They are no resistance, nor are they the only major opposition.

[Theodarzna]

[...]

Quick question, what does this have to do with the apartment complex bought under Ottoman Imperial times, and then a bunch of now expired leases issued by the Jordanian army?

Again, what are you talking about?

[krogy]

Lets just keep in mind, all of this is over an apartment building bought during the days of the Ottoman Empire, in a part of Jerusalem that fell under Jordanian Occupation after 1949. The buildings current leaseholders were granted those leases to live rent free in an apartment owned by a Jew, because Jordanian Law then and even somewhat now denies that Jews can own property or compel an Arab to pay them for it, and after 67' the building was under Israeli jurisdiction and the owner wanted control over his grandfathers building by then and the courts, the Israeli courts ruled that the Arabs couldn't be evicted but that they did have to actually pay rent. They refused and this sparked a MULTI-DECADE legal dispute where the Israeli courts did everything short of just taking away the title holders property deed to keep these Arab families in these apartments, even though it was issued to them under explicitly anti-Semitic laws and rulings by a hostile enemy army. Only now, when these tenants leases are finally expired and they've never honored a rent agreement and several are just out right squatting on the property does it look like they are going to be evicted and they riot and and Hamas starts a war and declares it a genocide to demand an Arab pay rent to a Jew.

This is all comically ridiculous.

Most of this country is comical but in a sad way if hamas couldnt only hit 1 proper rocket in the knesset at the right time we would have things better.

[Themius]

lol hamas are terrorists. They are an militia that is funded by Iran. Literally an imperial Iranian puppet 'government'. They are no resistance, nor are they the only major opposition.

Israelis are also terrorists in this situation or do you think only one side has terrorists? Why is it militias are always immediately terrorist when fighting against a much stronger and organised power? Note flawed..

At some point terrorist comes to hold little meaning when it is used to say "any opposition militia"

Team a: kills 300k people
team b: forms informal militia with purpose to kill team a

team a: Team b are terrorists!!!

This example I am using for America specifically where we bomb areas and then put out studies saying "oh so it seems our actions actually increase the number of 'terror groups' "

They seem to be the only major violent opposition.

What specifically makes Hamas terrorists? I daresay we will see the Israeli government doing the same or in fact worse... since it is significantly lopsided.

[Easo]

You're right that they can't really be compared.

You're wrong about why. The reason they can't be compared is that Israeli attacks have been so wildly disproportionate. In the same time frame that there were over 3000 innocent Palestinian civilian deaths (2008-today), there's been a total of 130 Israeli civilian deaths. The body count attached to Israeli attacks is more than 20 times as high as that from Hamas and other terrorist groups in Palestine.

You're right. They can't reasonably be compared. But only because Israel is so much more brutal and violent than Palestine.

Edit: Hell, you want to evaluate this proportionally, to see who targets citizens more?

Israeli deaths are 130 civilian, 121 security forces; nearly even; 51.8% civilian deaths.
Palestinian deaths are 3,183 civilian, 1,506 disputed, and 913 members of armed groups.

Even if we assume (unfairly) that all disputed deaths were militants, that's a 56.8% civilian casualty rate for Israeli attacks.

Israel targets civilians more than Hamas does. Statistically. Even if we err on Israel's side as much as possible.

Israel does not target civilians specifically, Hamas does. Israel has no reason to feel sorry for your warped misconception about some kind of fair fight where one side should stop because the other has more dead. Israel has technological advantage, they will use it as they should. Anyone else would too and the rest is only in your head about how things "should be".
If you still do not get in - Canada in place of Israel would do exactly the same. So would Japan. So would Russia. So would Norway, Brazil, New Zealand and anyone else. If Hamas are unable to kill more Jews than they do it is their problem, not Israel's.

More brutal and violent? Year 2007. Throwing Fatah members from the rooftops, dragging them behind bikes across Gaza.
P.S.
Palestinians and other Arabs have killed more Palestinians than Jews have ever killed them. Way more, in fact.

Why not? Why not give it to the Palestinian region? Is Hamas all of Palestine? Tell me... why does Hamas even exist to begin with? Do you think bombing children helps Hamas or hurts them?

Gaza = Hamas. Hamas are literally the enemy of Israel the country. Who would EVER give weapons to their enemies????!!!! The actual fuck, Themius?
As for West Bank they are not shooting rockets at Israel, nor is Israel bombing it, no need for anti-missile defense.. And you also obviously have no idea what the purpose of Iron Dome even is (hint - it would not protect against air strikes).

I think an outright route and defeat of Hamas is the only way the conflict really resolves. The Israeli's have to just crush and force a capitulation to finally resolve this debacle. It was in the end the only way to bring this to an end. One side was going to have to defeat the other.

Basically not possible, unless everyone in Gaza is forcefully resettled in another country. But doing serious damage to Hamas ability to wage war? Absolutely possible.

[PC2]

I can't imagine rockets flying at my family, we would not put up with that here. Israel is showing a lot of restraint and is always walking on eggshells. Hopefully they've identified a lot of the culprits and deal a big blow to Hamas.

Israeli culture produces advancements every year while Palestinian culture remains static. Unless that reverses then the onus is on Palestine to do most of the changing.

[Edge-]

Israeli culture produces advancements every year while Palestinian culture remains static. Unless that reverses then the onus is on Palestine to do most of the changing.

Man, it's almost like you're ignoring the entirety of the context behind why that is and just trying to ascribe it to "culture".

In most places that's just pretty naked bigotry, just sayin.

[jonnysensible]

What specifically makes Hamas terrorists?

Hamas military wing kills have committed constant war crimes and crimes against humanity against Israeli civilians and against Palestinian civilians. Suicide bombings vs civilians, rocket attacks vs civilians, using child soldiers, killings Palestinian reporters, torture, arrests, executions and arbitrary detentions of Palestinian civilians. They are without a doubt terrorists. Its amazing you dont know this.

[Endus]

Israel does not target civilians specifically, Hamas does.

Awful lot of "accidental" civilian deaths for a country that claims to not be targeting civilians.

I care a hell of a lot less about Israel's cover story than I care about the actual data of what they're actually doing.

Israel has no reason to feel sorry for your warped misconception about some kind of fair fight where one side should stop because the other has more dead. Israel has technological advantage, they will use it as they should. Anyone else would too and the rest is only in your head about how things "should be".

Bad takes with Easo;

"It's okay that Israel is slaughtering Palestinian civilians, because Israel's more technologically advanced than Palestine".

If you still do not get in - Canada in place of Israel would do exactly the same. So would Japan. So would Russia. So would Norway, Brazil, New Zealand and anyone else. If Hamas are unable to kill more Jews than they do it is their problem, not Israel's.

Canada indeed did do some similar stuff. And we've recognized that it was an atrocity and have been trying to make amends for having done so.

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Israeli culture produces advancements every year while Palestinian culture remains static. Unless that reverses then the onus is on Palestine to do most of the changing.

Just nakedly supremacist racism. Jesus Christ.

[Theodarzna]

Most of this country is comical but in a sad way if hamas couldnt only hit 1 proper rocket in the knesset at the right time we would have things better.

Hats off to Bibi, Hamas just did him a solid while he was struggling to keep in power and avoid corruption charges. Dude's the luckiest man in politics. The Gods themselves are working to keep him around. Wild levels of luck that guy has.

[Easo]

Awful lot of "accidental" civilian deaths for a country that claims to not be targeting civilians.

As usual, human ability to deal with big numbers is shit. There have been at least 600 air strikes, actually should be close to 1k now. Less than 100 dead in the densely populated Gaza actually is a low, very low number. Plus Hamas lies, as usual. Plus some deaths are only because dear rocketeers blew themselves up and took nearby civilians with them due to firing from the middle of street. Plus 1/5 to 1/3 of the rockets fall in Gaza, killing more Palestinians. Of fucking course Hamas reports those as killed by Israel.
And no, you really do not get it. Canada would do it right now in place of Israel. Repeat, anyone would. You can chose to not believe me, if you want to.
P.S.
Your still think pure infantry would result in less casualties if they were sent into Gaza?

[jonnysensible]

As usual, human ability to deal with big numbers is shit. There have been at least 600 air strikes, actually should be close to 1k now. Less than 100 dead in the densely populated Gaza actually is a low, very low number. Plus Hamas lies, as usual. Plus some deaths are only because dear rocketeers blew themselves up and took nearby civilians with them due to firing from the middle of street. Plus 1/5 to 1/3 of the rockets fall in Gaza, killing more Palestinians. Of fucking course Hamas reports those as killed by Israel.
And no, you really do not get it. Canada would do it right now in place of Israel. Repeat, anyone would. You can chose to not believe me, if you want to.
P.S.
Your still think pure infantry would result in less casualties if they were sent into Gaza?

cmon its not just the killing its the maiming, we all saw the videos of snipers knee capping medics at that fence protest

[Endus]

Your still think pure infantry would result in less casualties if they were sent into Gaza?

If they went in with sufficient care to not shoot at anyone who wasn't a combatant? Yep.

Do I think IDF forces would actually show that kind of restraint? Nope; they've demonstrated wild amounts of racism and brutality time and time again.

Also, cute trying to call my numbers "Hamas lies", when I'm pulling them from the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.

[Draco-Onis]

So, there is no title deeds or proof of ownership, its just a claim with nothing backing it. In the case we are talking about here, its people with expired leases, issued by the Jordanian army, who've refused to pay rent for decades based on the owners race. And the building was bought a fifty plus years before Israel even existed? What are you on about here?

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I think an outright route and defeat of Hamas is the only way the conflict really resolves. The Israeli's have to just crush and force a capitulation to finally resolve this debacle. It was in the end the only way to bring this to an end. One side was going to have to defeat the other.

ROFLMAO this is a religious war there is no ending it. After Israel is done with holocaust 2.0 their massacre will be used as justification for the next power to slaughter them.

This is an never ending cycle of death, Israel is creating the next generation of ISIS.

[Theodarzna]

ROFLMAO this is a religious war there is no ending it. After Israel is done with holocaust 2.0 their massacre will be used as justification for the next power to slaughter them.

This is an never ending cycle of death, Israel is creating the next generation of ISIS.

Well, this war, specifically is over an apartment building whose tenants have had decades to pay any rent, and flat out refused and Hamas has declared it genocide and ethnic cleansing to expect an Arab to pay a Jew a rent check. And I guess somehow Israel swindled this complex title into existence despite the building being bought during the days of the Ottoman Empire and the leases that are now expired being issued by the Jordanian Army, and the Israeli court spending decades trying to keep these people in their homes and meekly asking them to pay ANYTHING to the buildings owner.

[downnola]

Israel does not target civilians specifically, Hamas does. Israel has no reason to feel sorry for your warped misconception about some kind of fair fight where one side should stop because the other has more dead. Israel has technological advantage, they will use it as they should. Anyone else would too and the rest is only in your head about how things "should be".

This sociopathic way of thinking demonstrates exactly why the United States should stop funding and providing their weapons to Israel. Bloodthirsty maniacs with small dick syndrome murder civilians and then brag about how superior they are to the people they're brutalizing.

[DKjaigen]

If they went in with sufficient care to not shoot at anyone who wasn't a combatant? Yep.

Do I think IDF forces would actually show that kind of restraint? Nope; they've demonstrated wild amounts of racism and brutality time and time again.

Also, cute trying to call my numbers "Hamas lies", when I'm pulling them from the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.

That is not possible. This is war in a densly populated area. Still im wating what your excuse is to defend the palestenians who are commiting war crimes every single day by delibertly targeting civilians with their reocket attacks.

[Draco-Onis]

Well, this war, specifically is over an apartment building whose tenants have had decades to pay any rent, and flat out refused and Hamas has declared it genocide and ethnic cleansing to expect an Arab to pay a Jew a rent check. And I guess somehow Israel swindled this complex title into existence despite the building being bought during the days of the Ottoman Empire and the leases that are now expired being issued by the Jordanian Army, and the Israeli court spending decades trying to keep these people in their homes and meekly asking them to pay ANYTHING to the buildings owner.

No it's always been about the original sin of the British and religion. All these flare ups are just excuses to kill each other.

[DKjaigen]

ROFLMAO this is a religious war there is no ending it. After Israel is done with holocaust 2.0 their massacre will be used as justification for the next power to slaughter them.

This is an never ending cycle of death, Israel is creating the next generation of ISIS.

ISIS was a problem for other muslims.