Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[Felya]

Palestine doesn't have "citizenships". It's an occupied territory.

Okay... how about become part of their government? Since you don’t even need citizenship... must be easier... or does that “naked racism and bigotry” not apply?

Where did I say any such thing?

Your literally using the argument...

There is one country, here; Israel. There are also occupied territories ostensibly managed by Israel, which cannot establish independence due to said occupation.

What’s hamas?

There are two primary ethnic groups; Jews and Palestinians.

...

There is only one citizenship to be considered, here; Israeli citizenship.

Dude... if Palestinians agree to a single state solution, these problems are solved. They are all citizens. I think we are onto something... progress...

Israeli. Jewish. Palestinian. Three terms. Three different things. Conflating any two of them is a problem. Israel currently essentially does conflate Jewish with Israeli citizen, and opposes Palestinian citizenship where they can.

How do you oppose, that which does not exist?

If you're arguing for a world where Israel is totally supportive and welcoming of Palestinians along with Jewish citizens, I'd say that's fine. But that's not the reality we're dealing with, and the Israeli government is dead opposed to it.

Dude... we just solved the Middle East crisis... I agree one hundred percent... if we could find Israel leadership to agree to this one state solution, we are done. Going to hit Google... might be something there... :/

Side note... single state solution is shit, because of the quoted in the first reply.

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???

https://www4.skatteverket.se/rattsli...ng/356168.html

how can they be registered as citizens of palestine if it does not exist?

This is very controversial... the key is the “.se”... we had a blood center recognize Palestine for 5 minutes... it’s a salty pickle...

[Elegiac]

Dude... if Palestinians agree to a single state solution, these problems are solved.

So they can go from a de facto state of apartheid to a de jure state of apartheid? Lul. I don't blame them for a hard pass. Y'all would have excused the South African government if this were the 80s. -.-

The single state solution is not viable as long as Israel continues to be a basically fascist apartheid regime.

[Endus]

???

how can they be registered as citizens of palestine if it does not exist?

Palestine is not internationally accepted as a state to begin with. That Sweden chooses to do so is up to Sweden, but that doesn't affect any other nation.

[Endus]

Dude... we just solved the Middle East crisis... I agree one hundred percent... if we could find Israel leadership to agree to this one state solution, we are done. Going to hit Google... might be something there... :/

Side note... single state solution is shit, because of the quoted in the first reply.

Any "single-state solution" that involves the continuation of the current government and nation of Israel but incorporates Palestinians is, fundamentally, not an option. The extant state of Israel is ethnonationalist and does not treat both groups equally, and there is not equality of representation. The entire foundational documents of the nation would have to be discarded and new documents, which have no exclusivity on ethnic grounds whatsoever, would have to be drawn up. Issues like these evictions would have to be permanently and irrevocably ended, with the Palestinians being granted ownership of the lands they've been living in for 60 years or more. And so on.

It's just never going to happen, and it's never going to happen because Israel would never agree to it.

[Elegiac]

green countries recognize palestine as a state...

Noticing a lot of grey on that map, sweaty.

[Felya]

So they can go from a de facto state of apartheid to a de jure state of apartheid? Lul. I don't blame them for a hard pass. Y'all would have excused the South African government if this were the 80s. -.-

The single state solution is not viable as long as Israel continues to be a basically fascist apartheid regime.

Thus, the side note... I thought it was obvious... the “dude” is denoting playfulness... like I said... it’s a shit solutions because... “naked racism and bigotry”...

I might be a fat ass, but I can still strive to be a verbal trapeze artist...

[Endus]

green countries recognize palestine as a state...

You'll note that it's not universal.

Ask the same question about any other country, the answer would be universal. Or nearly so, with a few single-nation outliers for places like Taiwan.

Palestine has not achieved statehood. It's seeking that recognition, and gaining ground, but it isn't there yet.

And this is from someone who supports Palestine as an independent state, FWIW.

[Felya]

Any "single-state solution" that involves the continuation of the current government and nation of Israel but incorporates Palestinians is, fundamentally, not an option. The extant state of Israel is ethnonationalist and does not treat both groups equally, and there is not equality of representation. The entire foundational documents of the nation would have to be discarded and new documents, which have no exclusivity on ethnic grounds whatsoever, would have to be drawn up. Issues like these evictions would have to be permanently and irrevocably ended, with the Palestinians being granted ownership of the lands they've been living in for 60 years or more. And so on.

It's just never going to happen, and it's never going to happen because Israel would never agree to it.

I think the right wing of Israel would leap at the chance... you think they would admit to it? They would rip each other apart, and build complexes on each other’s corpses.

Edit: Sorry, this is one of those things, where a solution is beyond both, my intellect and imagination... and the imagination is pulling a lot of weight as it is.

[Elegiac]

then by that reasoning taiwan isn't a state either...

You'd be correct, most of the world officially regards Taiwan as part of the People's Republic of China as a result of the PRC having an official One-China policy as a condition of doing business with them. Only about 14 countries maintain relations with the Republic of China.

It's almost as if international relations are complicated.

[Elegiac]

but not even china regards it as part of china...

The Constitution of the PRC regards Taiwan as part of China proper, I don't give a shit what your friend heard the ambassador's mistress say to their valet.

Just stop. You're not informed on the subject.

[Elegiac]

then he realized what he said...

No one cares.

Unless this dude's word is somehow the thing that defines international relations and international law regarding state recognition (it doesn't, sit down), it's not relevant. Stop making shit up and derailing the thread because you can't handle being wrong.

[Felya]

I think things are swerving way off topic, when people are actually in agreement that Palestine should be an independent state.

[Deus Mortis]

Iron Dome Interceptors on the left and Hamas missiles on the right.

[Theodarzna]

Your article noted, as did I, that the Sheikh Jarrah issue only served as an opportunity for Hamas. It was to prove its chops after their local counterpart cancelled elections yet again. I think you should apply similar deductions to why people in this forum are intent in calling Israel's actions war crimes and genocides. The facts of the issue show it doesn't stem from strange perspectives on property rights, so you have to search deeper.

There might be something to that line of questioning, but I feel it is for them to answer. As for why it is that Israel is somehow committing ethnic cleansing despite granting these four families protected status and demanding a Jew and Israeli citizen basically honor a lease agreement that the owner didn't even agree to or set up, that was thrust upon them by an invading army that seized the Jewish persons property because of the ethnicity of the owner I'll mind you, and then this supposedly genocidal apartheid government dragged the court case out for decades letting these four Arab families, who I remind you Israel is supposedly ethnically cleansing, live rent free and totally screw the Jewish land owner for decades and only when it looks like now, decades and decades later an eviction notice is finally being served, that THAT is a genocide. Four families given every opportunity to live in peace and even the unfortunate property owner agreeing to the court's demands with the good faith expectation they'd be paid rent; but no, I guess what? The Jewish person has no right to buy and own anything and definitely is committing a human rights atrocity eclipsing the Holocaust to meekly ask an Arab tenant to pay rent or be evicted. I guess we ought to drag that landlord to the Haugh for expecting a rent payment, which is, I guess, the same as loading the families up in a cattle car and gassing them according to the commentators around here.

I mean, How can there be peace in that region and between different people if a lease agreement cannot be honored and if one person is of a different ethnic group the other will gin up a race riot and an actual war and decry any attempt to ask them to pay a bill they agreed to as a genocide? No wonder these two communities cannot live in peace, one faction, the one Hamas is backing, doesn't believe Jews can own or purchase anything.

I mean, if a Jew whose title to these houses was acquired long before Israel ever existed and who even agreed to accept the lease forced upon them by a hostile army, who didn't even recognize that person (The Jewish title holder) can own ANY property at all and this unfortunate person cannot even demand basic things like a rent check in a forty? fifty? year span without being accused of committing a war crime, and the government that patiently asked for decades for these families to honor the lease agreement they themselves agreed to in the initial court case is accused of out right genocide and ethnic cleansing. Well what hope for peace is there. I guess Jews are forbidden from owning land or anything. And they definitely cannot ever rent to an Arab because doing so is a big risk, what if the Arab doesn't want to pay rent? Well.... can't evict him or you are committing literal genocide in the eyes of a massive legion of armchair activists. The official line is I guess that if a Jew owns something he or she has no right to ask for a rent payment at all from an Arab, doing so is a human rights abuse and a literal genocide.

In any other country and if the landlord was any other ethnicity this would be a minor local story and nobody would dine to entertain the idea that being served an eviction notice after multiple decades of not paying rent constitutes a war crime. And I guess even the staunch defenders of property rights absolutism have a limit, as I've seen even from the Ayn Rand fanclub here, Property Rights do have a border, they end where the Kippah begins.

[Themius]

Rozz already said to stop this hyperbole... but, and anyone is free to answer this question... Are Palestinians willing to be Israelites?

Unless you answer yes... you better think for a god damn minute what you are implying...

Theo is right about this...

What an interesting question.

Palestinians aren't instantly granted citizenship and their status can be revoked that would be like... Americans of Irish descent being able to get citizenship but if they leave America then for too long their citizenship can be revoked while say.. Anglos born anywhere in the world can be American. Have a 900 year history on that little island? Well you're American

[Slant]

As long as they are useful political tools they keep some around, we all know the conclusion here all roads lead to more dead bodies. As more extremists take power it will speed up don't worry.

I don't know man, listen to interviews with people on the street, some of them are really sick of this shit. On both sides. The orthodox idiots don't represent the entirety of Israel.

[Draco-Onis]

I don't know man, listen to interviews with people on the street, some of them are really sick of this shit. On both sides. The orthodox idiots don't represent the entirety of Israel.

This is probably the only thing we are going to agree on people are sick of it and want it to end however it is also true that everyone is scared and there isn't trust on either side. When people are afraid they close their eyes and accept anyone who tells them that they will keep them safe that's why people like Bibi will keep power while running entirely on racism.

It's human nature I don't blame them it takes a lot to put you and yours at risk in the name of peace but it's simply not going to happen leadership is going more and more extreme as time goes on.

[jonnysensible]

the bibi situation is still bad. Hes living in a fantasy land. No functional government for 2 years now? Bibi thinks if he gets power again he can just disappear the court case against him through force of will. It would be a judicial coup. He politics are more and more deranged (like his son). And more and more in the realm of fantasy.

[Draco-Onis]

the bibi situation is still bad. Hes living in a fantasy land. No functional government for 2 years now? Bibi thinks if he gets power again he can just disappear the court case against him through force of will. It would be a judicial coup. He politics are more and more deranged (like his son). And more and more in the realm of fantasy.

I think the plan is to say that the weight of the office prevents the investigation from going forward all the while working behind the scenes to make it crumble. It is similar with what Trump did here with Mueller investigation, delay deny and undermine.

[ati87]

I think the plan is to say that the weight of the office prevents the investigation from going forward all the while working behind the scenes to make it crumble. It is similar with what Trump did here with Mueller investigation, delay deny and undermine.

Kind of works doesn't it? Netanyahu's wife got off pretty good for misusing public funds and that was with a limited scope investigation, if they treated her like everybody else the you could probably find a long list of crimes.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-48652986