Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[Endus]

By pointing out that there are refugees? I even compared it to rejecting Jewish children prior to WW2... are you sure it’s me?

People who've been living in their homes for 70 years are not "refugees".

That Israel may make them refugees by engaging in ethnic cleansing is entirely the point.

Providing support for Palestinians who flee is reasonable. But trying to make them leave the region? That's just helping Israel's campaign of ethnic cleansing. It isn't just supporting ethnic cleansing, it's outright engaging in the practice, directly.

The better solution to everyone is to resolve whatever issue could cause them to flee in the first place. Which, in this case, is Israel's ethnonationalist war crimes.

[Slant]

For fun, ask them if this would be okay; someone sticks them in a cage and electroshocks them repeatedly until they finally admit, meaningfully and for real, that might does not make right.

If they really believe that might makes right, they'd have to be totally fine with the torture porn to deny that "truth". Or they don't actually believe that bullshit.

Um, since we're on that point... whoever said might makes right, actually? Like, if you were the bully, would you go and seriously say "Well, might makes right!"?

I think I've only ever heard this in the context of people complaining about bullies and projecting that phrase onto them. "Well, I guess he thinks might makes right!"

Curious, did anyone ever actually use it to legitimise their actions and I missed it?

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, I do... Maybe people will start copying me... that would be fun. Instead of attacking each other, discussing current events.

You know, you have a mean, sharp tounge at times...

[Endus]

Um, since we're on that point... whoever said might makes right, actually? Like, if you were the bully, would you go and seriously say "Well, might makes right!"?

I think I've only ever heard this in the context of people complaining about bullies and projecting that phrase onto them. "Well, I guess he thinks might makes right!"

Curious, did anyone ever actually use it to legitimise their actions and I missed it?

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53182255

Yeah, there was. That's what sparked the responses off.

[Slant]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53182255

Yeah, there was. That's what sparked the responses off.

I meant more historically, who started that phrase... not some internet troll digging...

[Machismo]

I meant more historically, who started that phrase... not some internet troll digging...

I doubt many used that specific phrase, but the justification has long been prevalent.

[Mihalik]

I meant more historically, who started that phrase... not some internet troll digging...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_makes_right

The notion has been around as a justification for morality/ruling power since at least antiquity. It pops up as early as in Homer, so in some for or another it likely existed before.

It's a bad argument, but it has been wildly popular with autocrats and social darwinsts (fascists).

[jonnysensible]

blowing up media offices lol cmon now. collective punishment is a war crime

[Slant]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_makes_right

The notion has been around as a justification for morality/ruling power since at least antiquity. It pops up as early as in Homer, so in some for or another it likely existed before.

It's a bad argument, but it has been wildly popular with autocrats and social darwinsts (fascists).

Just going by the Wikipedia article for a lack of historical quote knowledge, it seems they didn't quite catch up to that... "right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." That sounds very different. It implies not that what the strong do is right, but it is what they can do. Not as a justification but as a matter of fact.

Same for Homer's "woe to the conquered", which sympathises with the weak, rather than legitimises the mighty. It's only Plato's Callicles (Dialoges) that's quoted in the Darwinian sense that you described. And Plato uses him only as a counterpoint to get his actual point across, that "nature affirms that to do injustice is more disgraceful than to suffer it, that equality is justice, and that a man such as Callicles' ideal is like a leaky jar, insatiable and unhappy."

If you move on to the next sections, they use it in a manner that I described, from third parties or the defeated to describe an assumed attitude of the strong, rather than the strong using it to justify their actions.

I think when we use it in debates, it's mostly used as a tool to discredit the "mighty" side of the discussion, in a sarcastic tone. I've never heard anyone actually go seriously for that phrase as a justification for their own action. It is pretty much as I thought.

[Felya]

People who've been living in their homes for 70 years are not "refugees".

My grandmother was 80...

[Nazerdam]

Blowing up international press building is a good way to rationalize your ethnic cleansing and forcing Nuremberg Laws into action.

I wonder what comes next, maybe putting people into trains and gassing the whole wagons with children in it and yelling "they threw rockets to us".

Ohh god, I love how history repeats itself.

[Shadowferal]

Um, since we're on that point... whoever said might makes right, actually? Like, if you were the bully, would you go and seriously say "Well, might makes right!"?

I myself never thought it was said for the reason that history and the actions of conquerors have made it self-evident.

[Felya]

But trying to make them leave the region?

No one is saying this... ya’ll are fighting shadows.

At this point you are so caught up in hyperbole, that you are arguing against lifting restrictions on refugees. I would understand an argument where aid and opening the border to refugees, is a bare minimum. But, this? Why? It’s the best thing that could have happened to my family... why wouldn’t a solution that I personally am grateful for, not be something I want for others?

At this point, the only way I see a discussion of reports, where Palestinians have to choose between bomb shelter and covid, is if I assert a conspiracy theory of it being used as a bio weapon. People being stuck between artillery fire and the plague, is simply not enough.

[Mihalik]

sip.

The point is that's it's a matter of perspective.

Yes, as a moral argument is fucking shit and it's almost self evidently so, but that hasn't stopped lunatics from using it whenever they could get away with it.

[Felya]

You know, you have a mean, sharp tounge at times...

Thank you... that’s the nicest thing anyone said to me on this forum, since Kellhound called me genuine.

[Machismo]

No one is saying this... ya’ll are fighting shadows.

At this point you are so caught up in hyperbole, that you are arguing against lifting restrictions on refugees. I would understand an argument where aid and opening the border to refugees, is a bare minimum. But, this? Why? It’s the best thing that could have happened to my family... why wouldn’t a solution that I personally am grateful for, not be something I want for others?

At this point, the only way I see a discussion of reports, where Palestinians have to choose between bomb shelter and covid, is if I assert a conspiracy theory of it being used as a bio weapon. People being stuck between artillery fire and the plague, is simply not enough.

We aren't arguing against that, that's just the straw man you built, because you got triggered that people had the nerve to condemn Israel for perpetrating ethnic cleansing.

[Felya]

We aren't arguing against that, that's just the straw man you built, because you got triggered that people had the nerve to condemn Israel for perpetrating ethnic cleansing.

You are attacking me, by asserting your Supreme knowledge of Ben Shapiro, as I was saying this:

I condemn Israel’s bombings. It’s not a hard thing to do...

Natanyahu’s brazen attempt to remain in power. Using actions of a terrorist group, to unleash otter chaos.

I literally responded to you numerous times about increasing refugees, with you replying with Ben Shapiro. Then Ednus tells me 70 year old are not refugees... I am not the subject of this thread...

[Machismo]

You are attacking me, by asserting your Supreme knowledge of Ben Shapiro, as I was saying this:




I literally responded to you numerous times about increasing refugees, with you replying with Ben Shapiro. Then Ednus tells me 70 year old are not refugees... I am not the subject of this thread...

Nah, that's just you projecting, because you got outraged that we had the audacity to call out ethnic cleansing.

You called it virtue signaling. You can also continue lying about what Endus said, by ignoring the context.

Personally, I think the primary goal should be to stop ethnic cleansing.

[Felya]

Nah, that's just you projecting, because you got outraged that we had the audacity to call out ethnic cleansing.

Actually, what I have shown, is that someone can describe every single horror currently taking place, but you won’t care, unless it’s called ethnic cleansing. Meaning that the only thing you care about, is it being called ethnic cleansing. You don’t actually care what it means...

You called it virtue signaling. You can also continue lying about what Endus said, by ignoring the context.

What’s the context? Who did he quote by saying “refugees” in quotes:

People who've been living in their homes for 70 years are not "refugees".

Was the context me saying opening up the borders to refugees or something else?

Personally, I think the primary goal should be to stop ethnic cleansing.

No, your primary goal is for people to ignore the shelling of innocent people. To ignore there being no home to return to. To look the other way, when people point to conflict of a plague and a bomb shelter. The only thing you care about, is that people say ethnic cleansing. You will attack people for not saying ethnic cleansing, when they actually describe the horrors of what’s happening.

[Machismo]

Actually, what I have shown, is that someone can describe every single horror currently taking place, but you won’t care, unless it’s called ethnic cleansing. Meaning that the only thing you care about, is it being called ethnic cleansing. You don’t actually care what it means...



What’s the context? Who did he quote by saying “refugees” in quotes:



Was the context me saying opening up the borders to refugees or something else?



No, your primary goal is for people to ignore the shelling of innocent people. To ignore there being no home to return to. To look the other way, when people point to conflict of a plague and a bomb shelter. The only thing you care about, is that people say ethnic cleansing. You will attack people for not saying ethnic cleansing, when they actually describe the horrors of what’s happening.

Nope, you are simply lying, and building another straw man. My sole concern is for the innocent victims.

Of course, I'd rather stop the ethnic cleansing, because it's hard to be a refugee, when you're been murdered by the Israeli government.

Your argument boils down to trying to get the Jews that survive out of Germany and Poland, instead of stopping Hitler from murdering the Jews in the first place.

You're talking to someone who doesn't even want borders. You are picking literally the worst person in these forums to make that argument against.

[Felya]

Nope, you are simply lying, and building another straw man. My sole concern is for the innocent victims.

Then why does it mater so much that people call it ethnic cleansing? Why do you never say anything specific?

Of course, I'd rather stop the ethnic cleansing, because it's hard to be a refugee, when you're been murdered by the Israeli government.

It’s also very hard to return to a home that doesn’t fucking exist. What do you think happens to homes that got destroyed, when the bombing stops? You think this is some matrix shit and they just materialize from out of space?

People lost their homes. There is no home to return to. This isn’t a video game level you just restart. The dead are not rising up...

Your argument boils down to trying to get the Jews that survive out of Germany and Poland, instead of stopping Hitler from murdering the Jews in the first place.

No, my argument boils down to... turning away boats full of Jewish children before WW2, isn’t a mistake we should repeat. We should accept those boats and tell them that anyone can come here. Bring more boats... not have rules in place that set arbitrary limits, that in effect are turning away boats full of children, just as we did before WW2.

You're talking to someone who doesn't even want borders. You are picking literally the worst person in these forums to make that argument against.

You are not the subject of this thread, anymore than I am...