Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[ati87]

You're not seriously trying to argue that Israelis are terrorized anywhere near the same level as Palestinians have been over the past two weeks, are you? If so, discussing this subject with you is just a colossal waste of my time.

a CNN clip I was just wathing on youtube.
A girl that can't go to college and being worried because of the missiles
vs
A schools that are being turned into shelters because Israel destroyed the houses where people live in.

Sure entire families might be wiped out and people might have lost everything they ever owned but what is Israel going to do? Not kick people out of there houses? Why pass Jim Crow laws that make it difficult for Palestinians to live in dignity?

THINK McFly!!!

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

@Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang

Ok so here's the scenario. One of the most populated areas on the globe, so you have to build in height. You have to build a hospital of say, 10 floors height. Go for it.

- - - Updated - - -

"ok lads let's go find rocks to use as foundations! But hey... They have to be big ones!"

Why would one want to build a 10 storey hospital? Even in my country there's only a handful of those.

Building a supertall hospital would be grossly inefficient, which is why they don't do it.
Here's a Indonesian built 2 storey hospital in gaza. Or a maybe up to 5 storey one built by Turkey.
Comparably functional building are well within the parameters of stonemasonry.

As for density, your are ill informed about what are the most efficient forms of dense urbanism, with the Intra-Muros core of Paris being 3 times the density of Gaza, with the prevailing building type being a 7 storey 19th century stonemasonry Haussman-style building, or a fac-simile.

[Cringefest]

Might come with millions (no, really, millions) running to shelters each day. You know, the thing you and some other posters disregard?



Except not all are nulified and you know that well. Also does not stop mortars on Sderot. Nor, again, the shelter running (kills people too, btw).



Hamas can't spend that money on infrastructure, healthcare, education, etc., because of blockade? Yet somehow they can spend it on rockets, bunkers, weapons manufactories and so on? Seems logical. wait, it does not.



They were elected in Gaza. Look at their overall popularity ratings now, they have chance of winning PA elections. Seems pretty clear that big enough part of Palestinians actually do support them.



Those tunnels dug towards Israel were also for goods entering? Btw, why is Egypt destroying them as well? Just a question for you...



Themius still does not get that efficiency in defense does not change the fact that rockets are flying, which is a big no no under the international law which he and others love mentioning.

It might not seem logical but that's what it is. Again, good luck fitting 200 bags of cement and 5 20 ft RSJs through a tunnel

[Shadowferal]

Both sides will announce glorious victory and we'll be back at it in another 4-7 years.

More like 4-7 weeks...

[Collegeguy]

Oh, what a masterful comeback, you really shook this discussion!
No, I mean the ultra orthodox hardliners, like the Hilltop Youth and god knows what else goes on in that godforsaken land.

"Hilltop Youth is a term commonly used to refer to hard-line, extremist religious-nationalist youth who establish outposts without an Israeli legal basis in the West Bank. The ideology of the hilltop youth includes the claim that the Palestinians are "raping the Holy Land", and must be expelled"

Why bother using words like extremist religious and right wing when that is not even a relevant divide in this discussion?

[Cringefest]

Ever heard of that thing called stonemasonry? Until WW2, that was the stuff most of cities in the Old World were made of, and the preferred material for building public buildings of all things, like, for example, hospitals...
Have you ever been to any European City or Jerusalem? Of all places the Middle East is the part of the world where its advanced forms are the most ancient...

Beside, I just so happen to be working in civil engineering, designing the likes of roads, water/sewer nerworks, concrete bridges, retaining walls and building structures in a concrete obsessed country.

You'll excuse me for not being a normie drone, but one curious of Architectural Heritage since childood. Add to that having directly enjoyed the benefits of earth architecture on my previous mapping work in an area of Subsharan Africa with a very similar climate.

I guess this is an understandable opinion given the now old modernist and productivist mainstream pushing away those old-fashioned, labor intensive yet perfectly adapted to the local climate forms. One would expect labor intensivity being less of a constraint in an area with massive youth unemployment.

But you know what? After various individuals, Architects and NGOs experimented with the stuff, now Hamas is supporting mudbrick construction, tunnel digging even providing an abundance of raw material.

I wonder why hamas is supporting mud brick construction. Maybe because, as the first line of your article says:

"Previously we reported that the Israeli siege on Gaza led to citizens constructing their houses with mud brick due to a lock on billions of dollars in reconstruction funds pledged by the international community."

You're in civil engineering, and yet you honestly suggested building infrastructures in Gaza with mud? Where did you get your degree, out of an Easter egg?

"With around 1.85 million Palestinians on some 362 square kilometers, Gaza ranks as the 3rd most densely populated polity in the world."

[JohnBrown1917]

Why bother using words like extremist religious and right wing when that is not even a relevant divide in this discussion?

Feel free to come with another term for fascism.

[Cringefest]

Why would one want to build a 10 storey hospital? Even in my country there's only a handful of those.

Building a supertall hospital would be grossly inefficient, which is why they don't do it.
Here's a Indonesian built 2 storey hospital in gaza. Or a maybe up to 5 storey one built by Turkey.
Comparably functional building are well within the parameters of stonemasonry.

As for density, your are ill informed about what are the most efficient forms of dense urbanism, with the Intra-Muros core of Paris being 3 times the density of Gaza, with the prevailing building type being a 7 storey 19th century stonemasonry Haussman-style building, or a fac-simile.

Erm, because it's not a fancy cultural capital, and rather a huge open air prison, where every square metre counts? That hospital in Singapore is really cute. You should pitch that idea over, see what they think <3

[Endus]

I wonder why hamas is supporting mud brick construction. Maybe because, as the first line of your article says:

"Previously we reported that the Israeli siege on Gaza led to citizens constructing their houses with mud brick due to a lock on billions of dollars in reconstruction funds pledged by the international community."

You're in civil engineering, and yet you honestly suggested building infrastructures in Gaza with mud? Where did you get your degree, out of an Easter egg?

"With around 1.85 million Palestinians on some 362 square kilometers, Gaza ranks as the 3rd most densely populated polity in the world."

Mud brick construction has a long history, particularly in the region. Even into modern times.

Here's Shibam, in Yemen;



Those are high-rises, up to 16 stories tall, all built with mud brick, and dating back in many cases to the 16th Century, so long-term survival is definitely feasible. They need more repair and maintenance as the mud bricks erode, but clearly, that's feasible, as the city's doing fine.

[Cringefest]

Mud brick construction has a long history, particularly in the region. Even into modern times.

Here's Shibam, in Yemen;



Those are high-rises, up to 16 stories tall, all built with mud brick, and dating back in many cases to the 16th Century, so long-term survival is definitely feasible. They need more repair and maintenance as the mud bricks erode, but clearly, that's feasible, as the city's doing fine.

Shibam is a UNESCO cultural heritage site. I know that place well I was hoping to go before the whole world went belly up.

That city is a result of centuries of construction. You can't expect to start building today and achieve the same results as something like that, especially in a place like gaza that gets bombed every so often. It's feasible, just not in gaza.

[Endus]

Shibam is a UNESCO cultural heritage site. I know that place well I was hoping to go before the whole world went belly up.

That city is a result of centuries of construction. You can't expect to start building today and achieve the same results as something like that, especially in a place like gaza that gets bombed every so often. It's feasible, just not in gaza.

Basically no method of construction is going to hold up to bombing, not unless you're literally building everything as an armored bunker. We just saw strikes take down a couple buildings in Gaza the last week or so. It's not like current construction methods are holding up to the bombardment either.

Gaza has limited resources and has to use what they can lay hands on.

[Cringefest]

Basically no method of construction is going to hold up to bombing, not unless you're literally building everything as an armored bunker. We just saw strikes take down a couple buildings in Gaza the last week or so. It's not like current construction methods are holding up to the bombardment either.

Gaza has limited resources and has to use what they can lay hands on.

Gaza has limited resources because Israel won't allow construction material in. We saw those videos, you're right. Imagine the damage them strikes and the collapse would have done to the surrounding area if built in mudbricks.

It sounds insane.

[Gaidax]

More like 4-7 weeks...

That's actually right.

I bet first rockets will come in that time frame, they usually do. Then they get discounted as "fringe element", I mean who cares a rocket or two here and there, amirite?

[ati87]

That's actually right.

I bet first rockets will come in that time frame, they usually do. Then they get discounted as "fringe element", I mean who cares a rocket or two here and there, amirite?

Clearly not you because you like the status quo that loves a recurring armed conflict.

[Gaidax]

Clearly not you because you like the status quo that loves a recurring armed conflict.

Just you wait I gonna put my Superman cloak and take care of it all.

More like, I don't give a fuck, as I plainly said. I know there will be another round in ~5-7 years as usual and it will all go cycles for hundreds of years.

I'd rather do something actually useful, like make a kid or two already, instead of trying to grind water. And basically majority here is same mindset - the whole thing is looked upon as waste of time, so it's not even a topic for elections usually.

I imagine next elections it will be more prominent and hilariously Hamas literally saved Bibi - like the guy was already packing and first ever "change" coalition in 12 years was literally days of forming with arab party support, no less, but that all went up in smoke. We legit already were prepping the memes about how Bibi and his disgusting family pack their shit and get out of PM residence, but no - the magician did it again.

So now we will get 5th elections, where Bibi will sweep the table. I'm less than thrilled at the prospect, simply because I'm not fond of ultra-orthodox parties hogging the budget and I'm sick of Bibi's family and bootlickers party. But little viable choice now.

[Kreuger]

https://apnews.com/article/gaza-isra...c27000c74b?new

"GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — Israeli media say Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Security Cabinet has approved a unilateral cease-fire to halt an 11-day military operation in the Gaza Strip"

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

Same reason why Egypt is helping Israel because Egypt is ruled by a military dictatorship who wants to stay in power and in order to do that they need to keep Americans happy.

Not a really difficult question. If you don't allow people in Gaza to import cement how else would they rebuild there homes?

As aforementioned, they have been building homes using traditional mudbrick architecture for more than 10 years now.

It is part of the petroleum age mythos that homes cannot be built without cement. In reality, they can, as they have been, like in the archaic times of the first half of the 20th Century, and the millenias prior.

On the other hand, it is an essential component of large infrastructures that appeared in the 20th Century. Like large canals (the Panama one being one of the first massive examples), dams (Hoover dam similarly), but also tunnels and bunkers (during WW2, 80% of French cement production went into German fortifications).

[Cringefest]

As aforementioned, they have been building homes using traditional mudbrick architecture for more than 10 years now.

It is part of the petroleum age mythos that homes cannot be built without cement. In reality, they can, as they have been, like in the archaic times of the first half of the 20th Century, and the millenias prior.

On the other hand, it is an essential component of large infrastructures that appeared in the 20th Century. Like large canals (the Panama one being one of the first massive examples), dams (Hoover dam similarly), but also tunnels and bunkers (during WW2, 80% of French cement production went into German fortifications).

Yes, out of lack of resources because they can't import building material. Maybe before talking about improving Gaza's carbon footprint, we could discuss, you know, lifting the blockade and bringing gaza back to the 20th century?
Once we achieve this, I'll be more than glad to discuss alternative building techniques suitable for Gaza.

[Theodarzna]

Yes, out of lack of resources because they can't import building material. Maybe before talking about improving Gaza's carbon footprint, we could discuss, you know, lifting the blockade and bringing gaza back to the 20th century?
Once we achieve this, I'll be more than glad to discuss alternative building techniques suitable for Gaza.

Gaza might have to end their war against Israel and their vow to Carthage the Israeli's before that will happen.

[Easo]

Ceasefire is basically here (might even hold), see you all in few years going in circles.

This is just rank whataboutism.

Nothing about Hamas' actions justify Israeli war crimes and human rights abuses.

The reverse, of course, is also true, and I'll note here that Hamas makes the same bad arguments you're using, just to defend their own use of rocket attacks. Literally the same arguments.

This whole thread has been one big whataboutism. But Hamas still were the ones who launched rockets first. And I do hope you won't try to argue that it was a reasonable reaction to protest supression at holy site (even that is debatable).

You're not seriously trying to argue that Israelis are terrorized anywhere near the same level as Palestinians have been over the past two weeks, are you? If so, discussing this subject with you is just a colossal waste of my time.

And here we go downplaying again. One could ask what impact millions might have from endless warning sirens, but oh well...

Same reason why Egypt is helping Israel because Egypt is ruled by a military dictatorship who wants to stay in power and in order to do that they need to keep Americans happy.

Not a really difficult question. If you don't allow people in Gaza to import cement how else would they rebuild there homes?

Ah, blaming USA. Never get's old. Attacks in Sinai are not an issue, I guess. Not to mention avoiding anything about tunnels going to Israel. Surely you would not imply they would smuggle matterials from Israel, would you?
Somehow they do get new homes, never wondered about it? Also, does not answer why Hamas prefers spending it on waging war instead.

It might not seem logical but that's what it is. Again, good luck fitting 200 bags of cement and 5 20 ft RSJs through a tunnel

They have imports, obviously. Same answer as above. Not ideal, but imports are still happening. Just like Hamas is still spending untold amounts of cash on weapons, both from the taxes of poor locals and the aid of gullible international suckers.