Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[Endus]

Antisemitism disguised as antizionism. For one example, a left wing group barred Jewish symbols at an lgbt pride parade and later used language directed at zionists that has been used by David Duke to describe jews. While there have been some harassment of Jewish people from left wing individuals under the guise of attacking Israeli zionists.

Again, I am stating for record being against Israel or zionism isn't anti semitism, but there are antisemites who use antizionism as a mask for their antisemitism.

You seem to be talking about the Dyke March in either Chicago (2017) or DC (2019). In both cases, it was only flags with a central Star of David that were banned, and solely because of their similarity to the Israeli flag. So you seem to be misrepresenting the facts a bit.

I don't necessarily agree with their choice on that, but in the 2019 march at least, they were allowing any Star of David pride flags where the symbol wasn't central; they were suggesting it be in a corner. It wasn't about "Jewish symbols", it was about nationalist symbols. Explicitly.

And sure, while some antisemites use antizionism to hide their views, some antisemites use zionism to hide their views. A lot, actually. Christian Zionism isn't exactly a secret movement.

Conflating Israeli symbols with Jewishness is precisely the problem. You need to be able to separate the two issues, the same way that attacking China for its abuses of the Uighur peoples (among other things) isn't an argument that Chinese culture or traditions or Chinese people in general are "bad", it's entirely about the political structure.

[eillas]

You seem to be talking about the Dyke March in either Chicago (2017) or DC (2019). In both cases, it was only flags with a central Star of David that were banned, and solely because of their similarity to the Israeli flag. So you seem to be misrepresenting the facts a bit.

I don't necessarily agree with their choice on that, but in the 2019 march at least, they were allowing any Star of David pride flags where the symbol wasn't central; they were suggesting it be in a corner. It wasn't about "Jewish symbols", it was about nationalist symbols. Explicitly.

And sure, while some antisemites use antizionism to hide their views, some antisemites use zionism to hide their views. A lot, actually. Christian Zionism isn't exactly a secret movement.

Conflating Israeli symbols with Jewishness is precisely the problem. You need to be able to separate the two issues, the same way that attacking China for its abuses of the Uighur peoples (among other things) isn't an argument that Chinese culture or traditions or Chinese people in general are "bad", it's entirely about the political structure.

The thing is that the star of David while yes, is the Israeli symbol is an important Jewish symbol that is used today to identify as Jewish. It has existed since before the creation of Israel. edit: I was referring to the former. For jews like me, the star of David isn't nationalist. It is a symbol of our religion and culture.

[Endus]

The thing is that the star of David while yes, is the Israeli symbol is an important Jewish symbol that is used today to identify as Jewish. It has existed since before the creation of Israel. edit: I was referring to the former. For jews like me, the star of David isn't nationalist. It is a symbol of our religion and culture.

And, to repeat, the LGBT march you were referencing didn't ban the Star of David. Just its placement in the middle of the flag, in the same place as in the Israeli flag, because of that comparison.

You're mixing anti-semitic stuff up with opposition to Israel's actions on political grounds.

[Cringefest]

Antisemitism disguised as antizionism. For one example, a left wing group barred Jewish symbols at an lgbt pride parade and later used language directed at zionists that has been used by David Duke to describe jews. While there have been some harassment of Jewish people from left wing individuals under the guise of attacking Israeli zionists.

Again, I am stating for record being against Israel or zionism isn't anti semitism, but there are antisemites who use antizionism as a mask for their antisemitism.

Yeah talk to them then. It's a serious accusation though so make sure you back it up.

[Acidbaron]

Antisemitism disguised as antizionism. For one example, a left wing group barred Jewish symbols at an lgbt pride parade and later used language directed at zionists that has been used by David Duke to describe jews. While there have been some harassment of Jewish people from left wing individuals under the guise of attacking Israeli zionists.

Again, I am stating for record being against Israel or zionism isn't anti semitism, but there are antisemites who use antizionism as a mask for their antisemitism.

The whole reason that antisemitism is and can be confused with antizionism is that those who dislike criticism of Israeli politics purposefully confuse them. Even the Former PM of Israel is guilty of that and so are undoubtedly several organizations the more extreme the more likely this rhetoric surfaces and this type of propaganda is spread, not to mention people like Bibi also strongly advocated that all Jews return to Israel as it is supposedly the only safe place for them, ignoring all the efforts being made elsewhere to protect said communities while people like Bibi also advocate for provocation and discrimination against non-Jewish Arabs in Israel, what is today's a root cause for the increase in antisemitism.

When everything is turned into racist talk by yourself to be used as a sort of shield for criticism from ones own behavior you cannot later come back and declare that everyone who criticizes you is a racist. That is not how this works, it is also very easy for people who can put two and two together to spot this as they struggle to acknowledge any wrong doing by the state of Israel and always find a way to rational and even justify any behavior.


But please stop the victim act, it is embarrassing and insulting to people with a minor level of understanding of all this. Racism is an ugly thing and has to die out, but this fire is being stoked from more than one side alone.

[Draco-Onis]

You won't be the only one with reservations about the coalition's future, but you're also failing to mention the fact that the coalition government deposing Netanyahu critically included Palestinians in Israel that used their power of the vote. I appreciate the deflecting towards Netanyahu's future and the coalition's future, as much as it's a more pleasant topic than the expression of Arab power, agency, and incorporation within Israel.

Hamas missiles fell on Palestinian Arabs too, and endangered their lives, lest we forget.

Because it's all about Bibi when Israel stops committing war crimes and killing unarmed civilians every week you can have a point.

[Gaidax]

ROFLMAO this coalition will collapse they have nothing in common. Once Bibi is convicted and barred from office it will fall apart the only thing this speaks to is how hated Bibi is, people that hate each other just hate him more even the people he was friends / co workers with. What a detestable piece of shit he must be not surprising considering he uses his dead brother as a prop.

You're practically pushing ultra-right propaganda now. They also squeal absolutely same thing about how coalition's only purpose in life is not having Bibi leading.

Reality is it's a coalition of parties who want to push their agendas forward, even if they know they won't get 100%. 60% is fine too for them, as opposed to 0%.

Why this coalition will last at least some time?

1. Because the polar opposites Bennet and Abbas will be immediately wiped out if elections are called and they know it, practically going against a good chunk of their voter base. The rest of the members are more flexible.
2. Opposition does not have the numbers, they are only 53 members strong + ~6 members of Joint Arab List. The 53 members don't want to rely on the 6 and the 6 won't rush to topple coalition and bring Bibi back to power that fast. The 6 will vote for no confidence, but only as long as the vote is sure to fail, otherwise they will do the usual "absent" trick for 2 members every dangerous vote.

Both Bennet and Abbas need a good year + to get some policy wins to quell the rage of their voter base and to weaken Likud party of Netanyahu. Until then, they will do everything they can to hold this together. All other coalition members are far less polarized, except for maybe Israel Beitenu, but then their leader got exactly what he wanted, I don't expect him to rush to wreck it.

[eillas]

The whole reason that antisemitism is and can be confused with antizionism is that those who dislike criticism of Israeli politics purposefully confuse them. Even the Former PM of Israel is guilty of that and so are undoubtedly several organizations the more extreme the more likely this rhetoric surfaces and this type of propaganda is spread, not to mention people like Bibi also strongly advocated that all Jews return to Israel as it is supposedly the only safe place for them, ignoring all the efforts being made elsewhere to protect said communities while people like Bibi also advocate for provocation and discrimination against non-Jewish Arabs in Israel, what is today's a root cause for the increase in antisemitism.

When everything is turned into racist talk by yourself to be used as a sort of shield for criticism from ones own behavior you cannot later come back and declare that everyone who criticizes you is a racist. That is not how this works, it is also very easy for people who can put two and two together to spot this as they struggle to acknowledge any wrong doing by the state of Israel and always find a way to rational and even justify any behavior.


But please stop the victim act, it is embarrassing and insulting to people with a minor level of understanding of all this. Racism is an ugly thing and has to die out, but this fire is being stoked from more than one side alone.

Please stop cherry picking my posts than trying to act smug. I straight up say in many of my posts on this topic that criticizing Israel or Zionism IS NOT antisemitism. How many times do I need to restate that. I straight up condemned what Israel is doing and the current government. You really need to read my posts carefully. Nex, since you say you have at least a minor level of understanding as you stated. Yeah propaganda has led to the belief. But if you look underneath it all. You might see what has led to that belief wasn't solely from a propaganda machine but centuries of antisemitism leading up to what happened in 1941 in Germany; which has shaped the mindset of many jews and their descendants.

- - - Updated - - -

And, to repeat, the LGBT march you were referencing didn't ban the Star of David. Just its placement in the middle of the flag, in the same place as in the Israeli flag, because of that comparison.

You're mixing anti-semitic stuff up with opposition to Israel's actions on political grounds.

You raise a fair point and I will look into it.

[Acidbaron]

Please stop cherry picking my posts than trying to act smug. I straight up say in many of my posts on this topic that criticizing Israel or Zionism IS NOT antisemitism. How many times do I need to restate that. I straight up condemned what Israel is doing and the current government. You really need to read my posts carefully. Nex, since you say you have at least a minor level of understanding as you stated. Yeah propaganda has led to the belief. But if you look underneath it all. You might see what has led to that belief wasn't solely from a propaganda machine but centuries of antisemitism leading up to what happened in 1941 in Germany; which has shaped the mindset of many jews and their descendants.

I am not cherry picking i am responding to that post, not every possible post you made in the past, So that is the message i got from it and that is what i replied to. If it bothers you that much you could have offered some sort of nuance in your post but i did not set out to misconstrue anything you said that being said i ca

But in your reply here, you go back to the Nazi's and how that is the root of the propaganda as in the fear of a repeat of those events. That might be so but i do not fully believe that or to phrase it better i find that to be an oversimplification of it all considering how in Europe the Jewish population gets extra protection, there are even laws that i find questionable but it makes it so that you could be charged laughing with them where as other demographics do not have that. And how much protection Israel still gets and is still stands there and so forth and i will also add that i do not deny that antisemitism exist.

So with propaganda i mean the image that the whole world is against the Jewish population and therefor it creates a sort of absurd and even perverse justification that the any thing goes in the name of survival and because Israel is synonymous with the Jewish population, any criticism against the state is directly considered as antisemitism and this goes pretty far, since if my memory does not fail me the government of Israel tends to put up formal complaints or indirectly against even regular citizens of other nations if they do so, especially if they have a stage or a part of the academic world. That was my point, i also added in a point that Israels actions are a large contributing factor to antisemitism feelings globally, you only have to look at social media every time tensions rise up.

But good on you for being able to separate the state and people, as that makes you part of the solution not the problem.

[eillas]

this was my first post on the topic
"Here are my 2 cents. I don't like Hamas or the current right-wing government of Israel. I do think Israel has a right to exist and so does Palestine. I do not agree with what Israel has done. They really crossed a line. I think a lot of US right wing who support Israel use it as a way to attack Arabs. I think there is an antisemitic issue on the left; that hides as antizionism as a smokescreen. I don't think criticizing Israel is antisemitic. I repeat I do not support Israels' current government or its current actions. I do think as John Oliver puts it kindly the US needs to tell Israel to knock it off."

[downnola]

Looks like the fash party the far-right nationalists had in Jerusalem had the intended effect they wanted. IDF is back to bombing Gaza right now in retaliation to Palestinian protesters throwing "incendiary balloons" and starting fires in southern Israel. They're just looking for any excuse to blow up Palestinians at this point.

[tehdang]

Why this coalition will last at least some time?

1. Because the polar opposites Bennet and Abbas will be immediately wiped out if elections are called and they know it, practically going against a good chunk of their voter base. The rest of the members are more flexible.
2. Opposition does not have the numbers, they are only 53 members strong + ~6 members of Joint Arab List. The 53 members don't want to rely on the 6 and the 6 won't rush to topple coalition and bring Bibi back to power that fast. The 6 will vote for no confidence, but only as long as the vote is sure to fail, otherwise they will do the usual "absent" trick for 2 members every dangerous vote.

Both Bennet and Abbas need a good year + to get some policy wins to quell the rage of their voter base and to weaken Likud party of Netanyahu. Until then, they will do everything they can to hold this together. All other coalition members are far less polarized, except for maybe Israel Beitenu, but then their leader got exactly what he wanted, I don't expect him to rush to wreck it.

How much of Israeli political backlash can we expect to the Hamas missile campaign, seeing as how there hasn't been an election since the latest act of aggression?

Has there been any polling on the parties from this month? Does the weariness at the fact of five elections prior to a ruling coalition matter in the lifetime of the current coalition?

And what local papers or websites do you read to be informed on the matter?
@Gaidax

[Gaidax]

Looks like the fash party the far-right nationalists had in Jerusalem had the intended effect they wanted. IDF is back to bombing Gaza right now in retaliation to Palestinian protesters throwing "incendiary balloons" and starting fires in southern Israel. They're just looking for any excuse to blow up Palestinians at this point.

Yesterday there were 26 locations with fires started from incendiary balloons and also one rigged with explosives blew right above homes of local farming community there, including some farmland.

You are out of your mind if you think there would be no repercussions to this, as it would only serve to encourage this further. You must think these are just some silly toys, they are not.

I certainly like to see good solid response to this, otherwise it will again be months of that crap.

- - - Updated - - -

How much of Israeli political backlash can we expect to the Hamas missile campaign, seeing as how there hasn't been an election since the latest act of aggression?

Has there been any polling on the parties from this month? Does the weariness at the fact of five elections prior to a ruling coalition matter in the lifetime of the current coalition?

And what local papers or websites do you read to be informed on the matter?
@Gaidax

There was polling, but it's mostly meaningless - it showed somewhat a wash results with new opposition losing a few seats and new coalition gaining a few seats. There won't be any new elections anytime soon, because of the reasons I stated and polling this soon is pretty meaningless.

If there would be elections, as usual it would be decided by a few breakaways forming a new party and upsetting the balance, this can go either way. There is a potential for that in Yamina, party of Bennet, many of which voters took his coalition entry as betrayal of the right and same can happen with Abbas for same reasons, but on Palestinian nationalist front. Basically what I stated. There also might be some internal strife brewing in Likud, which members fell behind Bibi as long as he gave them power, but without that the discontent there may grow. After all Sa'ar and New Hope are also Likud breakaways and they are a small but critical piece of the puzzle that brought Bibi down for now.

These breakaways would probably be the kingmakers in next elections.

The news sources are a mix of mainstream media websites and a bit of news channels with various political commentators. They are pretty diverse and I usually take a common ground between the opposition doing opposition thing and coalition doing coalition thing, commentators and such call out their plain to see BS both sides. It can be pretty funny at times.

Other than that living here, you know really what's what anyway and you have friends/workmates with our usual coffee/dinner talk sharing opinions too.

---

P.S. Seeing someone you blocked as latest thread post, but not seeing anything he trolls there at all due to filter is such a bliss. Should have put up that blocked posts filter much earlier.

[Cringefest]

Well that didn't last long.

"The airstrikes targeted facilities used by Hamas militants for meetings to plan attacks, the Israeli military said, blaming the group for any act of violence emanating from Gaza. There were no immediate reports of casualties.

On Tuesday, hundreds of Israeli ultranationalists, some chanting “Death to Arabs,” paraded in east Jerusalem in a show of force that threatened to spark renewed violence."

And so it did. Good job!

[Breccia]

Well, I guess we're doing this again.

Well that didn't last long.

No, it didn't.

[Cringefest]

Two days in? Three days?

[downnola]

Yesterday there were 26 locations with fires started from incendiary balloons and also one rigged with explosives blew right above homes of local farming community there, including some farmland.

You are out of your mind if you think there would be no repercussions to this, as it would only serve to encourage this further. You must think these are just some silly toys, they are not.

I certainly like to see good solid response to this, otherwise it will again be months of that crap.

I think it's more than obvious that the far-right in Israel are trying to stir up violence with their actions. Considering the recent change in government, I'd say the timing is pretty suspect. This how the far-right in general operates everywhere, not only in Israel. Knowing they can elicit a response, they agitate with full support of the police and then capitalize with lightning speed with heavy handed violence when they get the response they were looking for. How many flag marches does one need within the span of 40 days, exactly? It's getting pretty hard to argue that these radicalized reactionaries aren't marching around in East Jerusalem looking for a fight. Just take a look at the video I linked. That rally was more than just a peaceful patriotic march. There are countless videos of Israeli military police assaulting protesters and ripping Palestinian flags out of peoples hands at these events. I've seen this sort of belligerence before in places like Charlottesville and Portland. Reactionaries are the same pretty much everywhere, despite the different people they target with hate.

So this is pretty much an identical situation as the one a few weeks ago. The Israeli far-right stirs up trouble in East Jerusalem and evokes a response from Hamas and then the IDF start dropping bombs. Must be a day that ends in y.

[Cringefest]

I think it's more than obvious that the far-right in Israel are trying to stir up violence with their actions. Considering the recent change in government, I'd say the timing is pretty suspect. This how the far-right in general operates everywhere, not only in Israel. Knowing they can elicit a response, they agitate with full support of the police and then capitalize with lightning speed with heavy handed violence when they get the response they were looking for. How many flag marches does one need within the span of 40 days, exactly? It's getting pretty hard to argue that these radicalized reactionaries aren't marching around in East Jerusalem looking for a fight. Just take a look at the video I linked. That rally was more than just a peaceful patriotic march. There are countless videos of Israeli military police assaulting protesters and ripping Palestinian flags out of peoples hands at these events. I've seen this sort of belligerence before in places like Charlottesville and Portland. Reactionaries are the same pretty much everywhere, despite the different people they target with hate.

So this is pretty much an identical situation as the one a few weeks ago. The Israeli far-right stirs up trouble in East Jerusalem and evokes a response from Hamas and then the IDF start dropping bombs. Must be a day that ends in y.

It's as if they found a pattern that works!

[Draco-Onis]

I certainly like to see good solid response to this, otherwise it will again be months of that crap.

Oh yea because good solid responses have worked so well so far/s

[Cringefest]

Imagine supporting a country that systematically protects extreme far right marches at the level we've seen with this latest one.
"Another nakba is coming", people were chanting.
700k Palestinians left or were removed from their homes during that first one.
Imagine for a second, anything like that happened in a normal, western country.