Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[Cringefest]

And you dare talk about not talking the context into account xD.

Whatever it is that you're trying to go for isn't working today buddy. You can't write things at random and hope they stick.

[ati87]

What one needs to do in conflicts like these is not fall into the trap that individualism suddenly disappears and that all stand in line, this entire issue is a controversial one even in Israel among Israelis.

The blame game is only useful to see who did what when, or who started the latest incident. A solution wont come from appointing blame and neither will a solution come from the extremists on either side.

The dangerous part about thinking that maintaining the Status Quo and the constant efforts as occupier to take land from the occupied is that it works for now, it does not work in the long game. Hamas is larger than the Gaza strip and for the first time we have also seen violence spread to other regions more and more, history has shown us that occupier might win the overall battles in this war but they will never fully secure a victory as more civilian unrest and violence unfolds over the region and beyond. Remember that even as far as in Belgium the Jewish neighborhood needs extra protection from terrorist attacks and that these terrorists are inspired by PR campaigns using the Israeli government actions as fuel.

Weapons continue to evolve and become ever more available, the idea that a terrorist group would get a dirty bomb was unthinkable a few decades ago, now it is easily within reach. Those are things to consider, nobody really wins here.

Maybe but that is not how the Israeli right wing (majority of the country) sees this.
For the right-wing in Israel the solution will having the apartheid state as it is now or make the Palestinians so miserable that they leave the country or move to area's that Jewish settlers don't really care about. Doesn't matter that in 30 years time nothing changes, what do they care if they have some bad PR.

The fact that Hamas is kind of doing guerrilla warfare doesn't matter because unlike the the Vietcong the damage that Hamas is doing is much less painful. Until the damage of the ongoing conflict exceeds the damage of a peace deal Israel will keep the current status quo because Israel doesn't really gain anything from peace, every few years a couple of death civilians means nothing if a peace deal means going back the 67 borders.

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Way to look into the mirror, buddy.

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Can't really blame Israel either for bombing back those that send rockets at civilian areas with the goal of hurting civilians.

You can blame Israel for creating the situation where people felt to need to bomb.
But then again, this is my point. The Pro Israëli side is happy to keep talking about who started what conflict because this allows them to control the conversation without ever having to acknowledge that Israel does not or has ever wanted peace.

[Cringefest]

Maybe but that is not how the Israeli right wing (majority of the country) sees this.
For the right-wing in Israel the solution will having the apartheid state as it is now or make the Palestinians so miserable that they leave the country or move to area's that Jewish settlers don't really care about. Doesn't matter that in 30 years time nothing changes, what do they care if they have some bad PR.

The fact that Hamas is kind of doing guerrilla warfare doesn't matter because unlike the the Vietcong the damage that Hamas is doing is much less painful. Until the damage of the ongoing conflict exceeds the damage of a peace deal Israel will keep the current status quo because Israel doesn't really gain anything from peace, every few years a couple of death civilians means nothing if a peace deal means going back the 67 borders.

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You can blame Israel for creating the situation where people felt to need to bomb.
But then again, this is my point. The Pro israeli side is happy to keep talking about who started what conflict because this allows them to control the conversation without ever having to acknowledge that Isarel does not or has ever wanted peace.

Absolutely, one thing to remember is that Israel keeps on building on occupied land. If they agreed to a two state solution, they would have to remove some illegal settlements, which will spark really high tension if not civil war, guaranteed.

[Gaidax]

You can blame Israel for creating the situation where people felt to need to bomb.

Hamas is a ultra-nationalist terrorist group that aims to achieve their goals through violence. "People"? It's not people, it's a group of scumbags that took over Gaza, literally killed the opposition and installed their reign of terror there. The "feel the need" to bomb always, just like they did all the way since 1990s, EVEN at height of Oslo Accords, when there was no blockade and no nothing. All their bus bombings in Israel, despite left-wing government and PA pushing for peace solution and normalization.

So don't sell me that crap of "people felt the need to bomb", because guess what Israelis feel the need to defend then and feel the need not to allow the enemy to rearm and rebuild their bunkers and tunnels.

And as I said, I don't mind it. If they want to dance, we can dance. I don't mind it one bit, the time is on our side.

[Cringefest]

Hamas is a ultra-nationalist terrorist group that aims to achieve their goals through violence. "People"? It's not people, it's a group of scumbags that took over Gaza, literally killed the opposition and installed their reign of terror there. The "feel the need" to bomb always, just like they did all the way since 1990s, EVEN at height of Oslo Accords, when there was no blockade and no nothing. All their bus bombings in Israel, despite left-wing government and PA pushing for peace solution and normalization.

So don't sell me that crap of "people felt the need to bomb", because guess what Israelis feel the need to defend then and feel the need not to allow the enemy to rearm and rebuild their bunkers and tunnels.

And as I said, I don't mind it. If they want to dance, we can dance. I don't mind it one bit, the time is on our side.

This is pure revisionism you're engaging in. No Israeli prime minister has ever engaged in a two state solution in constructive way, simply because they've always been expanding, illegally, into occupied territory and involved in military occupation.

[downnola]

This is pure revisionism you're engaging in. No Israeli prime minister has ever engaged in a two state solution in constructive way, simply because they've always been expanding, illegally, into occupied territory and involved in military occupation.

I think Yitzhak Rabin legitimately worked towards a solution and I don't think it's fair to say he was acting in bad faith. The problem was he was assassinated by a far-right, pro-settler lunatic before the ink dried on any of the agreements.

[ati87]

I think Yitzhak Rabin legitimately worked towards a solution and I don't think it's fair to say he was acting in bad faith. The problem was he was assassinated by a far-right, pro-settler lunatic before the ink dried on any of the agreements.

Maybe he might have been the single exception in terms of leadership and yet the fact that Israel citizens decided to vote in right-wingers who have no intrest in peace is a bit telling isn't it?

I honestly don't think much would have changed overall, maybe the overal timeline of events but that's about it. Israel left Gaza for example but they never abandoned Gaza.

[Gaidax]

Maybe he might have been the single exception in terms of leadership and yet the fact that Israel citizens decided to vote in right-wingers who have no intrest in peace is a bit telling isn't it?

I honestly don't think much would have changed overall, maybe the overal timeline of events but that's about it. Israel left Gaza for example but they never abandoned Gaza.

The Israeli people voted right because left did not work out.

Oslo accords were a huge hope and there was a big legitimate peace push both from Israel and Palestinian side, but then 1994 and so on came with Hamas blowing up buses in Israel one after another with dozens of victims each time.

So whatever left intended simply did not work and people voted right. You can't really keep rule when you can't guarantee basic safety for citizens. Big shock there.


I have always said and will keep saying that Hamas is a blessing for right parties. Hamas just keep delivering the government to the right on a silver platter with their bullshit.

[Cringefest]

The Israeli people voted right because left did not work out.

Oslo accords were a huge hope and there was a big legitimate peace push both from Israel and Palestinian side, but then 1994 and so on came with Hamas blowing up busses in Israel one after another with dozens of victims each time.

So whatever left intended simply did not work and people voted right. You can't really keep rule when you can't guarantee basic safety for citizens. Big shock there.

Israeli people were pushed to the right because no peace is better for Israel. The one land one country plan can only become reality through illegal annexation and confusion. Otherwise you'd have to divide your holy piece of shitty land with filthy Arabs. Imagine that am I right?

[Specialka]

Israeli people were pushed to the right because no peace is better for Israel. The one land one country plan can only become reality through illegal annexation and confusion. Otherwise you'd have to divide your holy piece of shitty land with filthy Arabs. Imagine that am I right?

So who is not taking the context into account and not contributing to the discussion ? Remind me again ?

That situation is very complex and can't be solved in a few months or even a few years. Now, there is too much hatred on both sides. Something external like the UN could do something but it would be very hard to not paint that as a loss for Israel.

[ati87]

The Israeli people voted right because left did not work out.

Oslo accords were a huge hope and there was a big legitimate peace push both from Israel and Palestinian side, but then 1994 and so on came with Hamas blowing up buses in Israel one after another with dozens of victims each time.

So whatever left intended simply did not work and people voted right. You can't really keep rule when you can't guarantee basic safety for citizens. Big shock there.


I have always said and will keep saying that Hamas is a blessing for right parties. Hamas just keep delivering the government to the right on a silver platter with their bullshit.

Lets keep it simple instead of arguing the same nonesens for another 40 years of who is more violent.

What has Israel to gain from having having a functioning sovereign Palestinian state based on 67 borders? Please just answer this question.

[postman1782]

So what would you do if you were the leader of Israël or any country ? Allow your population to get bombed and say: I am cool with it ?

Should probably give back all of the land they stole in the first fucking place.

[ati87]

So who is not taking the context into account and not contributing to the discussion ? Remind me again ?

That situation is very complex and can't be solved in a few months or even a few years. Now, there is too much hatred on both sides. Something external like the UN could do something but it would be very hard to not paint that as a loss for Israel.

Honestly I don't really think it's all that complex.
Armenia vs Azerbaijan or India vs Pakistan is complex because we are dealing with centuries of changing borders and immigration that resulted in a major conflict which was never really resolved.
NK vs SK is a complex situation because one side would never give up there power while the citizens in large would probably die for there leader.
China vs Taiwan is a complex situation


Israel vs Palestine is kind of easy at this point. I mean we could make it more complex the moment we discuss if the borders should be based on 48 and what to do with the millions of refugees but for the latter at least it really hasn't ever come that far.

[Specialka]

Should probably give back all of the land they stole in the first fucking place.

Unfortunately, it is too symbolic for Israel (and it would be painted as a huge victory by Hamas & Co), so it will not happen most probably.

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Honestly I don't really think it's all that complex.
Armenia vs Azerbaijan or India vs Pakistan is complex because we are dealing with centuries of changing borders and immigration that resulted in a major conflict which was never really resolved.
NK vs SK is a complex situation because one side would never give up there power while the citizens in large would probably die for there leader.
China vs Taiwan is a complex situation


Israel vs Palestine is kind of easy at this point. I mean we could make it more complex the moment we discuss if the borders should be based on 48 and what to do with the millions of refugees but for the latter at least it really hasn't ever come that far.

Someone saying that a geopolitical situation is "simple" has really no business discussing it.

[Gaidax]

What has Israel to gain from having having a functioning sovereign Palestinian state based on 67 borders? Please just answer this question.

What kind of question is that? Normalization with all Arab states, immense wealth from tech contracts, trade and new trade routes.

You realize that UAE normalization alone brought several billion USD of deals right off the bat, including UAE oil routing project through Israeli pipeline and ports to Europe, pipeline and all. Then of course we're open to do business in Dubai, a business hub of Middle East. That's just one country out of potential dozens.

Now the fun part, of course, that it did not even require anything with Palestinians, because quite frankly everyone tired of their bullshit here including a good chunk their Arab brothers and Arab counties really want to benefit from Israeli tech including desalination, chemo-pharmaceutical, and defense industry.

But if there would be a full normalization including state - it is without a doubt would proper the already solid Israel's economy to the moon, because there would be a genuine gold rush after our considerable tech sector.

[Cringefest]

So who is not taking the context into account and not contributing to the discussion ? Remind me again ?

That situation is very complex and can't be solved in a few months or even a few years. Now, there is too much hatred on both sides. Something external like the UN could do something but it would be very hard to not paint that as a loss for Israel.

You are, with your shallow statements like the one above. Happy to help.

[downnola]

Cherry picking? Cool cool. I mean this can be done for every single issue around the world. Some cop will always attack someone, which you will equate to everyone doing that.

Is this the bad apple platitude I'm hearing? And get out of here with that cherry picking shit, we're talking about basic human rights. You either have the ability to express dissent and counter protest or you don't. 2/10 evasion, please put some effort in next time.

[Specialka]

What kind of question is that? Normalization with all Arab states, immense wealth from tech contracts, trade and new trade routes.

You realize that UAE normalization alone brought several billion USD of deals right off the bat, including UAE oil routing project through Israeli pipeline and ports to Europe, pipeline and all. Then of course we're open to do business in Dubai, a business hub of Middle East. That's just one country out of potential dozens.

Now the fun part, of course, that it did not even require anything with Palestinians, because quite frankly everyone tired of their bullshit here including a good chunk their Arab brothers and Arab counties really want to benefit from Israeli tech including desalination, chemo-pharmaceutical, and defense industry.

But if there would be a full normalization including state - it is without a doubt would proper the already solid Israel's economy to the moon, because there would be a genuine gold rush after our considerable tech sector.

I am guessing Israel could move toward the two states solution if they had solid guaranties about economic opportunities. But I think they would still be a backlash in the public opinion.

[Cringefest]

Honestly I don't really think it's all that complex.
Armenia vs Azerbaijan or India vs Pakistan is complex because we are dealing with centuries of changing borders and immigration that resulted in a major conflict which was never really resolved.
NK vs SK is a complex situation because one side would never give up there power while the citizens in large would probably die for there leader.
China vs Taiwan is a complex situation


Israel vs Palestine is kind of easy at this point. I mean we could make it more complex the moment we discuss if the borders should be based on 48 and what to do with the millions of refugees but for the latter at least it really hasn't ever come that far.

Of course it isn't. It's not the end of the world. Israel isn't unique. There are precedents of similar situations being resolved diplomatically. Northern Ireland for example. All that's needed is political will, which Israel had abandoned in order to find support in extremism.

The situation can become more complex as right wing extremists and settlers keep being allowed to do as they please. At the end of the day it'll all fall back on moderate Israelis.

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What kind of question is that? Normalization with all Arab states, immense wealth from tech contracts, trade and new trade routes.

You realize that UAE normalization alone brought several billion USD of deals right off the bat, including UAE oil routing project through Israeli pipeline and ports to Europe, pipeline and all. Then of course we're open to do business in Dubai, a business hub of Middle East. That's just one country out of potential dozens.

Now the fun part, of course, that it did not even require anything with Palestinians, because quite frankly everyone tired of their bullshit here including a good chunk their Arab brothers and Arab counties really want to benefit from Israeli tech including desalination, chemo-pharmaceutical, and defense industry.

But if there would be a full normalization including state - it is without a doubt would proper the already solid Israel's economy to the moon, because there would be a genuine gold rush after our considerable tech sector.

Once the settlers' revolts have been quelled of course

[Specialka]

Of course it isn't. It's not the end of the world. Israel isn't unique. There are precedents of similar situations being resolved diplomatically. Northern Ireland for example. All that's needed is political will, which Israel had abandoned in order to find support in extremism.

The situation can become more complex as right wing extremists and settlers keep being allowed to do as they please. At the end of the day it'll all fall back on moderate Israelis.

You do realize that the IRA stops the armed fight and moved to politics before anything could be achieved ? Hamas is far from doing that.