Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[Gaidax]

I am guessing Israel could move toward the two states solution if they had solid guaranties about economic opportunities. But I think they would still be a backlash in the public opinion.

I believe that two-state solution is a correct solution. Problem is as long as Hamas intends to try to push through with violence it simply won't happen, it's the reality. There is no way in hell you can make peace facing government under fire, because there simply won't be votes for it.

For this to happen you'd need Yesh Atid, Labour, Meretz and 2 other parties at least to have a solid 70 seats majority in the parliament AND you'd need to have actual credible leadership PA-side with actual willingness to do that. There is just no way anything like this happens in the next decade, especially not if Hamas continues with its bullshit, which it will - they did so in much better days, don't see them becoming peace doves, Arafat style.


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Practically, I see there is IRA talk... Well they have to do just that. Arafat too was a leading PLO that committed terrorist acts just fine including murder of Israeli Olympics teams. And yet at some point he made a decision to renounce violence and lo and hello - Oslo accords happened.

If Hamas would do a similar step in good faith, this could happen again in time. But if they won't, well, things won't change.

[downnola]

Maybe he might have been the single exception in terms of leadership and yet the fact that Israel citizens decided to vote in right-wingers who have no intrest in peace is a bit telling isn't it?

I honestly don't think much would have changed overall, maybe the overal timeline of events but that's about it. Israel left Gaza for example but they never abandoned Gaza.

No arguments there. It's the far-right settler ideology that has infested Israeli politics that makes any sort of future agreements impossible. We can sit here and blame Hamas for everything, they're an easy scapegoat. But in order for there to be a real solution, Israel would have to give up areas it doesn't want to give up. Any politician willing to entertain that fact in a meaningful way will have attempts on their life. That's just reality.

[Gaidax]

No arguments there. It's the far-right settler ideology that has infested Israeli politics that makes any sort of future agreements impossible. We can sit here and blame Hamas for everything, they're an easy scapegoat. But in order for there to be a real solution, Israel would have to give up areas it doesn't want to give up. Any politician willing to entertain that fact in a meaningful way will have attempts on their life. That's just reality.

That's just BS, really. Even as close as 2002 there were some very big agreements and concessions on the table. Things just did not go through.

This "blah blah right something something infected" is really a bunch of BS - if there would be a real, credible chance at peace with a partner on the other side - then Israeli citizens would vote for it, just like we did numerous times already. But if there is none and only something like Hamas playing the field, then that's the votes you get.

It's not some "turn another cheek" nonsense. People are people and we vote for personal security first and foremost.

To have peace accords, you need people in Israel to vote for it, but you won't get this when you have what amounts to a war in the south.

[ati87]

What kind of question is that? Normalization with all Arab states, immense wealth from tech contracts, trade and new trade routes.

You realize that UAE normalization alone brought several billion USD of deals right off the bat, including UAE oil routing project through Israeli pipeline and ports to Europe, pipeline and all. Then of course we're open to do business in Dubai, a business hub of Middle East. That's just one country out of potential dozens.

Now the fun part, of course, that it did not even require anything with Palestinians, because quite frankly everyone tired of their bullshit here including a good chunk their Arab brothers and Arab counties really want to benefit from Israeli tech including desalination, chemo-pharmaceutical, and defense industry.

But if there would be a full normalization including state - it is without a doubt would proper the already solid Israel's economy to the moon, because there would be a genuine gold rush after our considerable tech sector.

Sorry but you really didn't answer the question...does that mean that you can not answer this question? Is this a admit of defeat is that why your avoiding the question?
I'm emphasising functioning sovereign Palestinian state for a good reason and yet go to the UAE deal which really wasn't that of a achievement.

[Gaidax]

Sorry but you really didn't answer the question...does that mean that you can not answer this question? Is this a admit of defeat is that why your avoiding the question?
I'm emphasising functioning sovereign Palestinian state for a good reason and yet go to the UAE deal which really wasn't that of a achievement.

I answered the question. It's is simply as much as that - normalization and financial ties, trade and other benefits with about 3 dozens of countries.

If you want to twist that answer with your silly ass agendas, it's on you. Does not change the realities above.

[Cringefest]

You do realize that the IRA stops the armed fight and moved to politics before anything could be achieved ? Hamas is far from doing that.

No it's not. Hamas could be led towards that process, as they showed by agreeing to participate in diplomacy also involving a two state solution. This has been linked several times in this thread. Problem is that, being the result of armed rebellion and extremism, they tend to respond to your expansion and military occupation with weapons.

They even stopped rockets just before operation Cast Lead. The result was, yeah Cast Lead. Good job!

You guys could write a book on how to make a shitty situation worse. It'll come back on you though. Let's start by the pretext that no, you will not be allowed to conquer all of the land ok? That's simply never going to happen unless you slaughter every man, woman and child. Which btw wouldn't surprise me.
Eventually you will be asked to destroy illegal settlements. Settlements inhabited by settlers, which will not agree to the destruction of their own homes and rip you guys an new arsehole.

Working towards a solution is in your own interest.

[ati87]

Unfortunately, it is too symbolic for Israel (and it would be painted as a huge victory by Hamas & Co), so it will not happen most probably.

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Someone saying that a geopolitical situation is "simple" has really no business discussing it.

It's only as complex you want to make it out to be.
Again if we discuss the right of return that will be a complex issue because thanks to decades worth of inaction we are talking about millions of people that will never be allowed to return to there original homes.

Other then that, is it really that hard to say "lets have talks, we promise that we aren't evicting people from there homes or building new settlements".

[Cringefest]

I believe that two-state solution is a correct solution. Problem is as long as Hamas intends to try to push through with violence it simply won't happen, it's the reality. There is no way in hell you can make peace facing government under fire, because there simply won't be votes for it.

For this to happen you'd need Yesh Atid, Labour, Meretz and 2 other parties at least to have a solid 70 seats majority in the parliament AND you'd need to have actual credible leadership PA-side with actual willingness to do that. There is just no way anything like this happens in the next decade, especially not if Hamas continues with its bullshit, which it will - they did so in much better days, don't see them becoming peace doves, Arafat style.


---


Practically, I see there is IRA talk... Well they have to do just that. Arafat too was a leading PLO that committed terrorist acts just fine including murder of Israeli Olympics teams. And yet at some point he made a decision to renounce violence and lo and hello - Oslo accords happened.

If Hamas would do a similar step in good faith, this could happen again in time. But if they won't, well, things won't change.

Hamas agreed to work towards a two state solution. They even stopped throwing rockets. Your government is simply not interest in a two state solution cause there's more to gain through illegal expansion.

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It's only as complex you want to make it out to be.
Again if we discuss the right of return that will be a complex issue because thanks to decades worth of inaction we are talking about millions of people that will never be allowed to return to there original homes.

Other then that, is it really that hard to say "lets have talks, we promise that we aren't evicting people from there homes or building new settlements".

It really isn't. The "complex" thing is often just a smoke screen.

[Gaidax]

Other then that, is it really that hard to say "lets have talks, we promise that we aren't evicting people from there homes or building new settlements".

Ever heard of something called Democracy?

Because that's how it works. Our citizens don't want to say that while Hamas is around and does what it does and as such majority of votes now is against saying that.

Get back to us when you don't have Hamas launching various kinds of missiles over the border maybe then you'd have votes for talks.


Right now in coalition there is about 38-ish members that potentially can accept talks, you need a solid majority 61+. Not happening as long as there are balloons, rockets and other shit like that, because we aren't some sort of saints that vote for "turning other cheek" - it's simple people voting for simple things like security and not dealing with terrorists.

Now if we'd have several years of complete silence and people get some time to chill, you'd might see better votes for that cause in next elections, but while Hamas keeps up their shit - it won't happen and there won't be anything.


And yes, just like IRA people invoke here - they have to make the first step and renounce violence, just like Arafat and PLO did - then things will happen. Until then - dream on.

[Cringefest]

Ever heard of something called Democracy?

Because that's how it works. Our citizens don't want to say that while Hamas is around and does what it does and as such majority of votes now is against saying that.

Get back to us when you don't have Hamas launching various kinds of missiles over the border maybe then you'd have votes for talks.


Right now in coalition there is about 38-ish members that potentially can accept talks, you need a solid majority 61+. Not happening as long as there are balloons, rockets and other shit like that, because we aren't some sort of saints that vote for "turning other cheek" - it's simple people voting for simple things like security and not dealing with terrorists.

Now if we'd have several years of complete silence and people get some time to chill, you'd might see better votes for that cause in next elections, but while Hamas keeps up their shit - it won't happen and there won't be anything.

Enjoy your future civil war then!

[Acidbaron]

Do not ever expect Hamas to be serious about a political avenue, they backed themselves in a corner on that and even if they wanted to i doubt that they have a hold of all their militant members to force an actual cease fire, have not seen that working in the last decade for longer than a week.

You best bet is people who moved out of the gaza strip and into other places, those people or their offspring joining into politics that is how you will get more arabs from a non jewish background in politics and that is when you will see change happening, but even with that happening today it is going to take a long time as people on both sides are continuously stoking the fire and as Gaidax said at the end of the day if you have to vote you vote for your security first and your ideologies second.

[Cringefest]

Do not ever expect Hamas to be serious about a political avenue, they backed themselves in a corner on that and even if they wanted to i doubt that they have a hold of all their militant members to force an actual cease fire, have not seen that working in the last decade for longer than a week.

You best bet is people who moved out of the gaza strip and into other places, those people or their offspring joining into politics that is how you will get more arabs from a non jewish background in politics and that is when you will see change happening, but even with that happening today it is going to take a long time as people on both sides are continuously stoking the fire and as Gaidax said at the end of the day if you have to vote you vote for your security first and your ideologies second.

Hamas has already agreed to move towards diplomacy before. Israel isn't voting for security. In fact, they're building their huge domed tomb. There is absolutely no way that what they're doing now will bring long lasting peace.

[omeomorfismo]

lol, next gaidax' proposal: stop the hunger in the world by asking the poors to stop to starve.

[Cringefest]

lol, next gaidax' proposal: stop the hunger in the world by asking the poors to stop to starve.

Let's eat the poor!

[Gaidax]

lol, next gaidax' proposal: stop the hunger in the world by asking the poors to stop to starve.

Yes, because clearly asking US and EU recognized terrorist organization to stop chucking missiles and incendiary balloons over the border and renounce violence is too much to ask for.

People like you who practically try to whitewash Hamas is a big reason why they are encouraged to continue and chiefly fuck over Palestinians first and foremost.

But as I said, if you want them to continue, then really fine by me. I don't really care, it's not my priority in life at all.

[Cringefest]

Yes, because clearly asking US and EU recognized terrorist organization to stop chucking missiles and incendiary balloons over the border and renounce violence is too much to ask for.

People like you who practically try to whitewash Hamas is a big reason why they are encouraged to continue and chiefly fuck over Palestinians first and foremost.

But as I said, if you want them to continue, then really fine by me. I don't really care, it's not my priority in life at all.

It is your priority. You live in the country. Are you not interested in a long term solution?

[Endus]

Hamas has already agreed to move towards diplomacy before. Israel isn't voting for security. In fact, they're building their huge domed tomb. There is absolutely no way that what they're doing now will bring long lasting peace.

Let's also recall that the Israeli government helped create Hamas, specifically to cause chaos within Palestine and act as a counterweight to the secular and more-left-wing PLO. Hamas' violence is not a bug, for Israel. It's a feature.

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/...tine-conflict/
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847

[downnola]

That's just BS, really. Even as close as 2002 there were some very big agreements and concessions on the table. Things just did not go through.

This "blah blah right something something infected" is really a bunch of BS - if there would be a real, credible chance at peace with a partner on the other side - then Israeli citizens would vote for it, just like we did numerous times already. But if there is none and only something like Hamas playing the field, then that's the votes you get.

It's not some "turn another cheek" nonsense. People are people and we vote for personal security first and foremost.

To have peace accords, you need people in Israel to vote for it, but you won't get this when you have what amounts to a war in the south.

It didn't go through because Israel didn't want to go back to 1967 borders or recognize the right to return for Palestinian refugees. Like I said, which you didn't even try to dispute, the issues is and always will be West Bank and East Jerusalem settlements. 2002 was twenty years ago. The last Israeli PM to truly try to find a solution was assassinated by a far-right domestic terrorist. You can scapegoat Hamas if you like, but there will be no solution if Palestinians are expected to be the only ones sacrificing anything in an agreement.

If the current trends of right-wing radicalization are anything to go by, I don't see Israel honestly attempting any sort of solution when they have the full backing of the United States and can just continue to settle to their hearts content. Nothing less than complete Palestinian submission would bring Israel to the table. Considering that Bennet is now PM and people willingly vote in known Kahanists like Itamar Ben-Gvir into office, I'd say the voters are fine with it too.

Look into Yaakov Fauci and the nonsense he'll post on social media. Watch the videos of the settler march the other day in East Jerusalem. Take a look into the echo chambers these people find themselves in. They whine about a leftist media just like the far-right in America does. Shit, even Liberal Zionists like Zeev Sternhell (who I admire a great deal) had attempts on his life and pipe bombs sent to his house for speaking out about settlements. It's clear to anyone with a set of eyeballs. Israel has a far-right problem, plain and simple. I honestly don't buy any of the talk about wanting security. If you want security and peace then act like it.

[Cringefest]

Let's also recall that the Israeli government helped create Hamas, specifically to cause chaos within Palestine and act as a counterweight to the secular and more-left-wing PLO. Hamas' violence is not a bug, for Israel. It's a feature.

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/...tine-conflict/
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847

Sure. Hamas is the tool that Israel uses to justify their continued illegal expansion. What Israel is trying to do is get in so deep that going back isn't an option. That might very well be the case already, but from there to "one land one country" is a long long trip.
What they're planning to do simply isn't going to happen.

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Look into Yaakov Fauci and the nonsense he'll post on social media. Watch the videos of the settler march the other day in East Jerusalem. Take a look into the echo chambers these people find themselves in. They whine about a leftist media just like the far-right in America does. Shit, even Liberal Zionists like Zeev Sternhell (who I admire a great deal) had attempts on his life and pipe bombs sent to his house for speaking out about settlements. It's clear to anyone with a set of eyeballs. Israel has a far-right problem, plain and simple. I honestly don't buy any of the talk about wanting security. If you want security and peace then act like it.

Absolutely. People don't seem to realise how dangerous that road is. Allowing extremists, paramilitary groups and whatnot into the political process, instead of isolating them into oblivion, leads to exactly what you described here. The bar lowers so much that eventually even being right wing isn't enough.
This is showing often in Israel with ultra orthodox communities being totally out of control.
You even have the religious edge in here, which means this could lead straight into Taliban territory. An extremist religious group being given power to reach a specific goal, then abusing that power to control the land according to their twisted religious views.

[tehdang]

Yes, because clearly asking US and EU recognized terrorist organization to stop chucking missiles and incendiary balloons over the border and renounce violence is too much to ask for.

People like you who practically try to whitewash Hamas is a big reason why they are encouraged to continue and chiefly fuck over Palestinians first and foremost.

But as I said, if you want them to continue, then really fine by me. I don't really care, it's not my priority in life at all.

Actually, omeomorfismo comparing Hamas ceasing terrorism to asking poors not to starve is a pretty radical statement of Palestinian terrorist essentialism.

The continuing terrorism is a pretty clear indicator that they think it’s working in the international field, or they’re too fundamentally opposed to Israel’s right to exist to care about negotiated outcomes anyways.

The obvious proof against most of the arguments on the last two pages is the Palestinian Arab allies abandoning solidarity with them to sign separate diplomatic normalization and trade deals with Israel. These are countries that held out for decades thinking pan-Arab solidarity would be used by Palestinian leadership for two-state talks and eventual peace. And they’ve given up on waiting around for Hamas and Fatah to bargain in good faith.