Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[Easo]

A recognition of an institution's bias is not "prejudice".



You keep consistently trying to portray me as an anti-semite, by using words like "prejudice" as in the above, to misrepresent what I've actually said.

That's slander, which is abusive. This isn't complicated. My position on these issues have fuck-all to do with ethnicity in any way.



The Occupied Territories' status is not in dispute. They are occupied by Israel, but are not part of Israel, and Israel has no legal capacity to change that.

See, you asume there is a bias. I will agree that it might be seen that way, yet that does not make it real. Btw, Palestinian court would also be biased, if I understand correctly your logic in saying that Israeli one is. Then who would meditate this? There is no 3rd party...

So how the hell did you now figure out I think that you are/paint you anti-semite? Jesus christ you might wanna stop digging deeper because it is becoming ridiculous. I have no idea where your train of thought is even going. And no, that is not a slander, what the actual f...?
Yes, this indeed is not complicated, but you just tried to make it such.

Yeah, well, it is also not in dispute that the Palestine does not really exist as a independent country nor was the East Jerusalem's status ever finalized. Until it is Israel has de facto authority and nothing is changing that.
For the last time - there is the nice theory, and then there is the reality. Stop trying to live in "how it should be". Strive towards it, but do not live in fantasy.

[Elegiac]

See, you asume there is a bias. I will agree that it might be seen that way, yet that does not make it real. Btw, Palestinian court would also be biased, if I understand correctly your logic in saying that Israeli one is. Then who would meditate this? There is no 3rd party...

So how the hell did you now figure out I think that you are/paint you anti-semite? Jesus christ you might wanna stop digging deeper because it is becoming ridiculous. I have no idea where your train of thought is even going. And no, that is not a slander, what the actual f...?
Yes, this indeed is not complicated, but you just tried to make it such.

Yeah, well, it is also not in dispute that the Palestine does not really exist as a independent country nor was the East Jerusalem's status ever finalized. Until it is Israel has de facto authority and nothing is changing that.
For the last time - there is the nice theory, and then there is the reality. Stop trying to live in "how it should be". Strive towards it, but do not live in fantasy.

TLDR:

- "Just because it looks biased doesn't mean it is despite all the evidence contributing to that appearance of bias." (Sure, Jan )
- "What about Palestinian courts."
- "Even if there is a bias and even if it is colonialism it doesn't matter anyway because you can't do anything about it." i.e. the 'neener-neener' argument'.

We're trying to strive towards it, unfortunately we have people like yourself resisting it every step of the way. The hilarious thing is that your arguments were the exact same ones people were throwing around to try and excuse Apartheid. It was as silly back then as it is now.

[downnola]

Yeah, well, it is also not in dispute that the Palestine does not really exist as a independent country nor was the East Jerusalem's status ever finalized. Until it is Israel has de facto authority and nothing is changing that.
For the last time - there is the nice theory, and then there is the reality. Stop trying to live in "how it should be". Strive towards it, but do not live in fantasy.

Lmao, what?

Yeah, Israel would love for people to just accept and forget that they're illegally occupying and settling territory that isn't theirs. But it's not going to happen, especially in the age of the internet and social media. They're going to face criticism for as long as they continue to try to annex that territory, end of story. Perhaps it's you that should stop living in a fantasy world.

[Elegiac]

Lmao, what?

Yeah, Israel would love for people to just accept and forget that they're illegally occupying and settling territory that isn't theirs. But it's not going to happen, especially in the age of the internet and social media. They're going to face criticism for as long as they continue to try to annex that territory, end of story. Perhaps it's you that should stop living in a fantasy world.

It's also an admission that the whole property ownership and other legalist arguments are bunk, it's literally just a matter of them believing Israel has jurisdiction there regardless of its legality because...

You know, I don't actually understand the impetus behind people getting defensive over Israel when they have no stake in it. Some weird sense of "western solidarity", maybe?

[downnola]

It's also an admission that the whole property ownership and other legalist arguments are bunk, it's literally just a matter of them believing Israel has jurisdiction there regardless of its legality because...

You know, I don't actually understand the impetus behind people getting defensive over Israel when they have no stake in it. Some weird sense of "western solidarity", maybe?

Defensive, completely uncharitable towards Palestinians, and quick to accuse people of anti-semetic and pro-hamas motives. I have no clue, your guess is as good as mine.

[Endus]

See, you asume there is a bias. I will agree that it might be seen that way, yet that does not make it real. Btw, Palestinian court would also be biased, if I understand correctly your logic in saying that Israeli one is. Then who would meditate this? There is no 3rd party...

I did not "assume" anything. That's where you're wrong. I considered their decision, their jurisdiction, and their approach to evidence, and drew a conclusion.

So how the hell did you now figure out I think that you are/paint you anti-semite? Jesus christ you might wanna stop digging deeper because it is becoming ridiculous. I have no idea where your train of thought is even going. And no, that is not a slander, what the actual f...?

Yes, where could I have gotten that idea.

Ah, right, Endus, one more thing. Start fucking asking the same from Arab countries as you do from Israel. Oh, right.

You argue from the position where Arabs were always right.

maybe try to be less prejudiced yourself.

You've repeatedly implied it throughout this thread. And this is just the personal attacks of this character, there were plenty of others you made beyond this particular angle.

[Easo]

So while we are having this "discussion" Hezbollah decided to remind that they exist (guessing that it is a sideeffect of the new Iranian hardliner president) and launched some ~20 MLR rounds towards Israel with the usual outcome aka intercepts by Iron Dome, rockets falling back in Lebanon/hitting empty places and Israel answering with artillery.
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1423565926545375232
Local Druze did not approve of this (probably because they really did not want to get bombed in response), surrounded the Hezbollah, then dragged them out of the vehicles, beat the fuckers up and handed them over to Lebanese Army.
https://twitter.com/AlHadath/status/1423607900170293248
http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/...48094788ec.jpg
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images...5a6cafbc7c.jpg
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images...4ed2e34e70.jpg
Good to see that even a country within a country is not almighty.

TLDR:

- "Just because it looks biased doesn't mean it is despite all the evidence contributing to that appearance of bias." (Sure, Jan )
- "What about Palestinian courts."
- "Even if there is a bias and even if it is colonialism it doesn't matter anyway because you can't do anything about it." i.e. the 'neener-neener' argument'.

We're trying to strive towards it, unfortunately we have people like yourself resisting it every step of the way. The hilarious thing is that your arguments were the exact same ones people were throwing around to try and excuse Apartheid. It was as silly back then as it is now.

Evidence being... Israeli courts can only be bad and biased?
Nah, you are not striving anywhere, you complain to feel mighty and righteous, then pat yourself on the shoulder afterwards.

Lmao, what?

Yeah, Israel would love for people to just accept and forget that they're illegally occupying and settling territory that isn't theirs. But it's not going to happen, especially in the age of the internet and social media. They're going to face criticism for as long as they continue to try to annex that territory, end of story. Perhaps it's you that should stop living in a fantasy world.

Yes, the world will keep obsessing over Israel while doing nothing. *shrug*

I did not "assume" anything. That's where you're wrong. I considered their decision, their jurisdiction, and their approach to evidence, and drew a conclusion.

Yes, where could I have gotten that idea.


You've repeatedly implied it throughout this thread. And this is just the personal attacks of this character, there were plenty of others you made beyond this particular angle.

I have no doubt that you did all those things, yet you still have no access to actual court documents. Or to anyone involved in the case. It gives you a right to make an opinion, but not claim it as the truth.

If you got that idea from those words maybe you should recheck what the definition of anti-semite means. Being pro-Arab does not make one. As I said - defensive.

[Elegiac]

Evidence being... Israeli courts can only be bad and biased?

Generally the legal system of an apartheid state is suspect when it comes to the people they're trying to keep apartheid-ed, yes.

There's also the small matter of them not having legal jurisdiction because it's an illegally occupied territory. Which you have admitted is the case, hence the "neener neener what are you going to do about it" argument.

Nah, you are not striving anywhere, you complain to feel mighty and righteous, then pat yourself on the shoulder afterwards.

No, actually, I actively participate in the BDS movement and encourage others to do so until Israel decides to stop acting like a tinpot despotate.

[Easo]

Generally the legal system of an apartheid state is suspect when it comes to the people they're trying to keep apartheid-ed, yes.

There's also the small matter of them not having legal jurisdiction because it's an illegally occupied territory. Which you have admitted is the case, hence the "neener neener what are you going to do about it" argument.



No, actually, I actively participate in the BDS movement and encourage others to do so until Israel decides to stop acting like a tinpot despotate.

Yes yes, apartheid state, blah blah.

Good for you, though it's impact is... questionable.
Tinpot despotate? People like you really should try to go out of your safe countries and visit actual despotates. Start with something simpler, like Azerbaijan, try speaking something about Aliyev and about Armenia. Then you could upgrade to Turkmenistan, could be fun...

Worst thing to happen to you in Israel? Getting deported. xD

[Elegiac]

Yes yes, apartheid state, blah blah.

Good to know you're not disputing that it's an illegally occupied territory, ergo bitching about how unbiased Israel's courts are isn't actually relevant since they don't have jurisdiction there.

Good for you, though it's impact is... questionable.

Those goalposts must be heavy.

Tinpot despotate? People like you really should try to go out of your safe countries and visit actual despotates.

Perhaps you should actually pay attention to what Israel is doing in the Palestinian territories.

[Easo]

Good to know you're not disputing that it's an illegally occupied territory, ergo bitching about how unbiased Israel's courts are isn't actually relevant since they don't have jurisdiction there.



Those goalposts must be heavy.



Perhaps you should actually pay attention to what Israel is doing in the Palestinian territories.

Yes, you are very funny and witty. The reality is that they are de facto authority there. Work with the reality, same as I told to Endus.

Goalpost to... whom? You? Because i made a comment what I think about BDS. Unless to you private opinions are goalposts...

Nothing in Gaza because they are not in there. Mostly beating/breaking up rioters in West Bank and keeping a strange status quo. Palestinian Authority, after all, does exist and does the actual goverment work over there.

[Elegiac]

Yes, you are very funny and witty. The reality is that they are de facto authority there.

*gestures*

- "Even if there is a bias and even if it is colonialism it doesn't matter anyway because you can't do anything about it." i.e. the 'neener-neener' argument'.

This is an admission you know your argument isn't defensible and simply appealing to the inertia of the status quo.

We acknowledge the reality, what we dispute is your arguments that said behavior on the part of Israel is justifiable because terrorism is scary.

[Elegiac]

What good are all the justifications in the world when you can't physically defend or enforce them?

I dunno, maybe the fact this isn't the fucking bronze age and we're ostensibly a society of laws.

(And no, this is no justification to engage in unethical warfare on the part of palestinians.)

We get it, might makes right for me but not for thee.

[downnola]

If I was Israel I wouldn't even bother jumping through any legal hoops: "Come and take it back," would be the only argument I'd need. And in reality that is also the only argument they depend on. (And no, this is no justification to engage in unethical warfare on the part of palestinians.)

One of the main reasons other countries haven't already is because the United States supports them with the veto power of a seat on the U.N. Security Council, on top of supplying them with weapons, missiles, and technology like the Iron Dome. The IDF wouldn't be what it is today without the United States military-industrial complex.

But this is something a person who spent the entirety of last year whining about American forever wars and globalization should be aware of. You either die an adversary of the forever war machine, or you live long enough to become the neo-con, eh?

[jonnysensible]

That is the first time I've heard a "progressive" claiming that the Geneva Convention is just some double standards, btw. Good to know.

you cant say 'might makes right' and then start bleating about rules. lol.

[jonnysensible]

Alright, because it matters so deeply for some, let me rephrase it: "Geneva convention approved might makes right."

.

this doesnt mean anything, you are trying to have your cake and eat it.

[downnola]

I don't think the IDF desperately needs the support from the USA to be able to keep defending it's claimed territories anymore either at this point.

They clearly disagree with that statement considering they've asked for an additional 1 billion USD to replenish the Iron Dome last month.

I'm not even sure if the reason as to why Israel has the military power it has, is really important, unless you believe that the goal should be for the USA to stop supporting Israel... which to me just sounds a roundabout way of saying you'd like more Israeli civilians to get bombed and destabilizing the region even further.

Yes, the U.S. should stop supporting Israel if they're going to use our annual payment of 3.8 billion in taxpayer funds to smear Palestinian children into the pavement and annex territory that isn't theirs. The fact that this behavior has continued in the middle of a pandemic that's claimed the lives of 620k Americans is even more reason to tell them to kick rocks so we can use that money on the people who need it here.

[Endus]

Alright, because it matters so deeply for some, let me rephrase it: "Geneva convention approved might makes right."

Doesn't sound quite as catchy though.

I see what you're saying, except their argument boils down to: "violence no longer exists or is valid in the modern world," - which I can't agree with.
My own argument is that terrorism is not a valid way of engaging in violence.

You can't even see the direct and blatant contradiction here, can you?

If "might makes right", then terrorism is totally defensible and a reasonable option to pursue. It's "might". Applying it enough to win makes it "right". That is literally what "might makes right" means.

If "might makes right", then you can't take issue with certain forms of "might" on moral or ethical grounds; "might makes right", after all.

[Endus]

There is no contradiction when the word 'right' in the maxim refers to the right to claim land and ownership, not the right to override military ethics or the Geneva Convention. In reality there are several forces that do have that might and have used it many times in the past, adding further validity to the "might makes right" maxim. But Palestinians aren't even remotely one of those forces. Terrorist attacks does not make them 'mightier'.

When I think about it Israel might have that might too compared to palestinians, while palestinians don't have it in return. So yes, "might makes right" still applies. And until palestinians have more meaningful might, I'll keep disapproving of their child soldiers and terrorists bombing market places or shopping centers.

Which, again, means you'll suddenly start approving of their child soldiers and market bombings if those tactics start winning, because that means their "might" is superior.

Because you don't have an ethical stance at all, you just blindly follow the biggest bully in the room.

That's what "might makes right" means.

[Easo]

Let's keep the shitfest going, my friends. So now there is the awaited 2nd part into HRW investigation:

Hamas rocket fire a war crime, Human Rights Watch says

It also notes that misfires indeed have killed Palestinians. Something that should have been obvious to everyone, but oh well.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-58183968