The Covenant Switching System SUCKS...

[Dakara]

So - in summary it isn't because it isn't.

Well - in response it is - because it is.

That's better than 100% of people using the same spells, covenants give you the option of being a bit less homogenous. That's ALWAYS a good thing.

I'd prefer it if you couldn't chop and change covenants at all, but the current system is a reasonable compromise away from that ideal.

Would they though?

As a Holy Paladin I'd likely run Venthyr for Raids and Kyrian for Keys, but on push weeks I might take Venthyr if I feel healing will be light.
For Torghast as Ret I'd probably run Necrolord for the free cleave.
For dailies / soloing old content I'd probably take Night Fae for Soulshape movement.

I have no idea what class/spec you play or at what level. Perhaps you're among the lucky few whose class has reasonably balanced covenants, or perhaps your BiS aligned with your "meaningful choice" anyway.

Covenant might give you the option of being less Homogenous, but the real world data indicates very few took that option... and how many of those characters aren't just throwaway alts?

[erifwodahs]

That's better than 100% of people using the same spells, covenants give you the option of being a bit less homogenous. That's ALWAYS a good thing.

I'd prefer it if you couldn't chop and change covenants at all, but the current system is a reasonable compromise away from that ideal.

It's not good if it's a selling point to the expansion and it doesn't work, is it? If you are trying to sell cars but most of the cars only have two working wheels, it's a shit car.
Why doesn't it work? Because they can't balance it. We have classes which they can't balance with legendries which they can't balance and covenants on top which they can't balance. Imagine being NF DK. "I am Night Fae Death Knight" sounds like one of those joke quests where you are growing sunflowers to fight zombies not a actual class identity.
You choose your class then you choose your subclass which you can change at a moments notice and now you have some stupid sub sub class which you need to jump loops and hoops to change.

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Would they though?

As a Holy Paladin I'd likely run Venthyr for Raids and Kyrian for Keys, but on push weeks I might take Venthyr if I feel healing will be light.
For Torghast as Ret I'd probably run Necrolord for the free cleave.
For dailies / soloing old content I'd probably take Night Fae for Soulshape movement.

I have no idea what class/spec you play or at what level. Perhaps you're among the lucky few whose class has reasonably balanced covenants, or perhaps your BiS aligned with your "meaningful choice" anyway.

Covenant might give you the option of being less Homogenous, but the real world data indicates very few took that option... and how many of those characters aren't just throwaway alts?

Absolutely this.
I would be playing venthyr prot paladin for raids and kyrian for keys. But hey, it's somehow better that I only can play one ability, right?

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They would probably feel the same way if it was just a talent because it would still be "3 spells" only a few % use since players tend to take the good talents, just like people supposedly chose the best covenant.

If we talk about developer feels, I think developing a covenant with matching spells is probably more fun than an extra talent or two.

Thing when it's a talent - you still get to create it, but at least people can try it out and you don't have to be so careful with balance, imagine overpowering a necro ability now, but then nerfing it because it was too much? talent vs covenant scenario is a big difference how community would react to it.
I would love to be running venthyr paladin in raids, but hey, it sucks in m+ in comparison to kyrian so I don't get to play that at all.

[Azerate]

Because it's not supposed to be something that you do regularly. Covenant switching exists in case someone chooses the wrong one, or ends up not enjoying the one they picked. Covenants are supposed to be semi permanent and you are only allowed to change them to avoid people being trapped in one they dislike. They are not intended to be switched on weekly basis.

There, explained it for you.

[Lolites]

I see so many threads about it everywhere.
Now please show me how many 'i am so happy that i cannot change my covenant so often!' ones we've got at the same time.
It is just stupid, artificial content that has totally no value for the game.

why would anyone make thread "everything is the way i want"? people make threads to complain not that they are happy... being LOUD doesnt make you majority, or actualy right for that matter...
and if you check the comments, even in this MMO-C tiny doom and gloom community its roughly half-half...

it have totaly no value for the game... for you, and thats fine, but not everybody thinks the same way you do...

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Covenant might give you the option of being less Homogenous, but the real world data indicates very few took that option...

do they? only (incomplete) data that were around shown that except few logical outliers(NF druid, kyrian pal) its not really "MOST going for the best".. actualy if i remember corectly ten (so almost third) specs didnt even have majority in their "best" covenant... obviously there were some changes after balancing, but if it wasnt 90% for "best" (like some people pretended it is) before, then it should be even less so after balancing (not everyone will want to change) ...

[Dakara]

do they? only (incomplete) data that were around shown that except few logical outliers(NF druid, kyrian pal) its not really "MOST going for the best".. actualy if i remember corectly ten (so almost third) specs didnt even have majority in their "best" covenant... obviously there were some changes after balancing, but if it wasnt 90% for "best" (like some people pretended it is) before, then it should be even less so after balancing (not everyone will want to change) ...

The data is not incomplete because the Armory exists. Is it 90% for every class? No, but 90% of statistics are made up... when you actually looks at the Covenant representation by class, there are very obvious bias towards "the best". And that's when looking at the total player-base, so every level 60 character. When you start digging into meaningful content, be in Raids, Keys or PvP, then it becomes clear as day how players are choosing.

The other thing to consider, is while some classes might appear to have a more even spread, when you filter by spec, again, it becomes obvious how the majority of players are choosing.

Feel free to have a browse:
https://wowranks.io/stats
https://subcreation.net/
https://raider.io/

[Lolites]

The data is not incomplete because the Armory exists.

and as long as armory doesnt state WHY the person chose the covenant yes, the data is incomplete and pointless...

you WANT to push narative everyone choose based on power so if you see night fae druid you are certain its bcs of power, BUT there are hundreds of other reason why people choose whatever covenant they did... (my guildmate chose kyrian bcs he can mount up everywhere in their sanctum)

if you actualy check the data on wowranks you will see what i said - some specs dont even have majority in their "best" covenant... read the data before using them as "proof" of whatever, so next time you dont end up looking like fool... (btw, 7m, chars while on the same page it says theres 20m chars in queue... seems it doesnt even cover majority of chars...)

btw, putting https://raider.io/ as source you might aswell put www.google.com...

[Sondrelk]

It's not good if it's a selling point to the expansion and it doesn't work, is it? If you are trying to sell cars but most of the cars only have two working wheels, it's a shit car.
Why doesn't it work? Because they can't balance it. We have classes which they can't balance with legendries which they can't balance and covenants on top which they can't balance. Imagine being NF DK. "I am Night Fae Death Knight" sounds like one of those joke quests where you are growing sunflowers to fight zombies not a actual class identity.
You choose your class then you choose your subclass which you can change at a moments notice and now you have some stupid sub sub class which you need to jump loops and hoops to change.

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Absolutely this.
I would be playing venthyr prot paladin for raids and kyrian for keys. But hey, it's somehow better that I only can play one ability, right?

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Thing when it's a talent - you still get to create it, but at least people can try it out and you don't have to be so careful with balance, imagine overpowering a necro ability now, but then nerfing it because it was too much? talent vs covenant scenario is a big difference how community would react to it.
I would love to be running venthyr paladin in raids, but hey, it sucks in m+ in comparison to kyrian so I don't get to play that at all.

None of the covenant abilkities are so bad its broken. It's more like getting the choice of 4 perfectly reasonable cars, but all of them are slightly better depending on if you want to drive in the city or go on family holidays.

When you are forced to choose one ability you force diversity, which is something the game has struggled to have since its inception.
If you could choose specific covenants for specific raids then why wouldnt you? Why wouldnt you swap covenants each boss depending on which one has the sligghtly 1% better soulbind?
If you make swapping easy then its a no brainer that players would go for it, making the very idea of picking a covenant pointless.

And people can still try out different abilities. When you level normally you are given a perfectly reasonable span of time to test every single one of your abilities to at least get a firm grasp on which one you like playing with. And if being a hardcore minmaxer is so important it is perfectly doable to swap covenant every single patch if you so please.


Covenants work perfectly fine as they are now. You pick one and stick to it. If you hate teh covenant then you can swap once to each different covenant free of charge with the penalty only coming if you go backon your initial buyers remorse.

This is a mechanic made for players that have wanted choices in the game, not players who only raidlog and go on forums and complain when their chosen spec sims 2% lower than the ideal spec of the month, or complain that their class about single target damage doesnt sim as well on add fights as classes where that is supposed to be the main strength.


Just pick a covenant and stick to it. If you really are such a hardcore minmaxer that you are troubled by not being 100% optimal in absolutely every single situation then you can put the work in and have 4 alts of the same class.

[erifwodahs]

Just pick a covenant and stick to it. If you really are such a hardcore minmaxer that you are troubled by not being 100% optimal in absolutely every single situation then you can put the work in and have 4 alts of the same class.

Amm. What choices? Have you seen warlock stats? Very fitting indeed.

I want to have fun but I can't because daddy blizzard is hardstuck on covenants and conduit charges. What's more fun? Using one ability everywhere or being able to use other abilities too? Don't talk about "it's identity!" Undead druids would make way more sense than NF DK or WL.

[Dakara]

and as long as armory doesnt state WHY the person chose the covenant yes, the data is incomplete and pointless...

you WANT to push narative everyone choose based on power so if you see night fae druid you are certain its bcs of power, BUT there are hundreds of other reason why people choose whatever covenant they did... (my guildmate chose kyrian bcs he can mount up everywhere in their sanctum)

if you actualy check the data on wowranks you will see what i said - some specs dont even have majority in their "best" covenant... read the data before using them as "proof" of whatever, so next time you dont end up looking like fool... (btw, 7m, chars while on the same page it says theres 20m chars in queue... seems it doesnt even cover majority of chars...)

btw, putting https://raider.io/ as source you might aswell put www.google.com...

It’s funny, the moment I decided to add a few sources i knew Raider.io would get shit on, so bravo, that’s why I linked multiple. But there’s more if you’d like to do your own research into the matter.

Or shall we just assume it’s all BS because your guildie chose Kyrian so they could mount? There will always be outliers. But to make the argument that the majority of players just happened to choose their best Covenant for reasons other than it being the best is turning a blind eye to the very obvious balancing issues.

I mean since we’re using anecdotal evidence, I’ll add my own. When we need to fill a spot in our M+ runs, we don’t even bother asking what Covenant someone’s in because in the overwhelming majority of situations, our assumption will be correct... they went with the best.

[Eazy]

The covenant abilities should've been swappable just as the talents are.

Would be cool if you could be able to get the same level of each upgrade in the covenant when you swap.

But yeah, not gonna swap to meta covenant because of 1% DPS upgrade, I invested too much anima already.

[Mafic]

The whole covenant system is stupid, it should have been 1-2 talent points.

I agree. That is how it should have been.

[Crimson Spears]

The covenant abilities should've been swappable just as the talents are.

Would be cool if you could be able to get the same level of each upgrade in the covenant when you swap.

But yeah, not gonna swap to meta covenant because of 1% DPS upgrade, I invested too much anima already.

Why do people use the 1% meme when for the past what... 15 years its been 20%?

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and as long as armory doesnt state WHY the person chose the covenant yes, the data is incomplete and pointless...

you WANT to push narative everyone choose based on power so if you see night fae druid you are certain its bcs of power, BUT there are hundreds of other reason why people choose whatever covenant they did... (my guildmate chose kyrian bcs he can mount up everywhere in their sanctum)

if you actualy check the data on wowranks you will see what i said - some specs dont even have majority in their "best" covenant... read the data before using them as "proof" of whatever, so next time you dont end up looking like fool... (btw, 7m, chars while on the same page it says theres 20m chars in queue... seems it doesnt even cover majority of chars...)

btw, putting https://raider.io/ as source you might aswell put www.google.com...

Its been 15 years of players choosing the most damage for talents to the point it was the reasoning for the removal of the original talent trees because even with 60 points every class was using the exact same build minus 1-3 "optional" talents.

Refusing to accept this is simply denial at this point.

[Eazy]

Why do people use the 1% meme when for the past what... 15 years its been 20%?

It's not a meme, its scientifically proven through math fact.

Okay, it's not 1%, but ~3%.

Also lol'd at the "15 years its been 20%".

[LazuOG]

Yeah, i mentioned this above - honestly people just dont appreciate how things are much, much more accessible and forgiving than they ever have been, and this is a prime example.

You guys didn't seriously just compare the covenant system to scryers vs aldor? Cause that would be mental.

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None of the covenant abilkities are so bad its broken. It's more like getting the choice of 4 perfectly reasonable cars, but all of them are slightly better depending on if you want to drive in the city or go on family holidays.

When you are forced to choose one ability you force diversity, which is something the game has struggled to have since its inception.
If you could choose specific covenants for specific raids then why wouldnt you? Why wouldnt you swap covenants each boss depending on which one has the sligghtly 1% better soulbind?
If you make swapping easy then its a no brainer that players would go for it, making the very idea of picking a covenant pointless.

And people can still try out different abilities. When you level normally you are given a perfectly reasonable span of time to test every single one of your abilities to at least get a firm grasp on which one you like playing with. And if being a hardcore minmaxer is so important it is perfectly doable to swap covenant every single patch if you so please.


Covenants work perfectly fine as they are now. You pick one and stick to it. If you hate teh covenant then you can swap once to each different covenant free of charge with the penalty only coming if you go backon your initial buyers remorse.

This is a mechanic made for players that have wanted choices in the game, not players who only raidlog and go on forums and complain when their chosen spec sims 2% lower than the ideal spec of the month, or complain that their class about single target damage doesnt sim as well on add fights as classes where that is supposed to be the main strength.


Just pick a covenant and stick to it. If you really are such a hardcore minmaxer that you are troubled by not being 100% optimal in absolutely every single situation then you can put the work in and have 4 alts of the same class.

I can call bullshit two sentences into your book. There's vast differences between covenants. Just because you blindfold yourself doesn't mean it isn't obvious.

By now, everyone who still claims this kind of shit deserves the derogatory names people call them in their mind.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

You are supposed to be loyal to one covenant! Traitors! Of course I'm kidding but lore wise this doesn't look good for you guys who are switching because there is some epic ability there.

[arkanon]

You guys didn't seriously just compare the covenant system to scryers vs aldor? Cause that would be mental.

Then by all means provide a well articulated response as to why it is not similar.

[agentsi]

Wanted to swap my Druid to Necrolord for some better attempts at PvP, I was already on the path to go Kyrian from awhile back so had to finish that 100% quest, and now I'm waiting another reset before I can then do the 100% quest for Necrolord, to then wait another week to do the quest again to finally become Necrolord..

Does anyone else find this an extremely irritating system? I have to wait 2 resets before I can start the 40 renown grind as Necro... until then I have to chill as a Kyrian for 2 weeks, yay... I've legit just afk'd my Druid until reset now.

Your complaints aren't valid.

They said they didn't want to you allow to swap at all, so they gave in and let folks do it. Now that was too much, so people complained more, so the first swap to be free. Now you're at the point where you're swapping in hopes of playing in that top 1% ( you aren't, stop trying ) and are mad.

Stop crying, get over it. Be happy they let you swap at all. You made a decision, stick with it.

[Rendark]

Ya it's dumb but what can you do. It would be far better if the covenant abilities were just talents that you could swap to at any time.

[Crimson Spears]

Then by all means provide a well articulated response as to why it is not similar.

One gives you a starting item at best you replace very early on in the progression cycle. Very,very early on it would be on par to a mythic 0 or a normal raid today.

The other locks a talent in for you for a minimum of two weeks and inflicts other penalties as well.

[arkanon]

One gives you a starting item at best you replace very early on in the progression cycle. Very,very early on it would be on par to a mythic 0 or a normal raid today.

The other locks a talent in for you for a minimum of two weeks and inflicts other penalties as well.

Yes I agree there are differences in the rewards, but both are a system you are expected to commit to, to some extent, and swapping your "loyalty" from one to the other incurs some negatives. I genuinely dont remember all the rewards for A/S, but I seem to remember it being gems or patterns? I could be wrong, but at the time, it was considered quite an important decision, at least to some players.

I like to think that the covenant system would have been far more positively received if all the rewards were cosmetic only, with the abilities just being talents - maybe a special final row where you can pick one, but i think that is wishful thinking.