How to Improve the Gear Rewards Systems of WoW!

[Clash the DK]

Naaaaaah, that's a bad idea.

Wouldn't like to swap my gear each time I do other content.

What if the same bonus applied to both Raids and Dungeons? Would that be more palatable for you?
I get that having extra gear would be a pain. So I want to approach this by looking at all the pros and cons.

[Eazy]

What if the same bonus applied to both Raids and Dungeons? Would that be more palatable for you?
I get that having extra gear would be a pain. So I want to approach this by looking at all the pros and cons.

Some pieces I've got from the M+ I am using for PvP also.

I'm kinda comfy, so I'd just like to even have one set of gear.

[Alkizon]

And everything goes back to "work vs fun" discussion

In fact, WotLK in some sense was very much tolerant (compared to Legion&Co) due to that there was a certain height (ceiling/temporary limit) of growth in everything, which means that person could work, then relax a little, then switch to twink and work again, go back to main and relax again and so several times during single expansion without any rush (both PvE and PvP). Do you feel this now? From my own experience, this is main thing that most people did before project "commercialization", somewhere between BC and Legion. But problem is that faster game "goes" (and "faster faster" is now its basic philosophy), the more often switch happen, which means that period of fun is shorter, and the higher soft cap is (under "soft cap" I mean: average stair to which specific player can climb without changing own game style intensity/complexity - current amount of content that can consume and depth of progress that own abilities' level allows to reach; as part of this, stuff that happens now is even more pitiable, since all content is consumed easily through easiest difficulty, and progress, which's indicator are equipment(ilvl)+AP, isn't attainable in principle by virtue of mechanics (process is accessible to all regardless of ability and experience, since doesn't require any such stuff to participate (=borderless in terms of content), but is unachievable for anyone); don't forget that current average player is like a dog in "food absorption" framework - doesn't know own measure, because game doesn't allow/teach to determine it), so the less it happens during one expansion. What follows from all this - total number of once average player's "fun"-hours inevitably decreases and "work"-hours increases... Ladies and gentlemen, it's time to complain to trade unions!

This isn't entirely relevant to the topic's theme, but I just want to point out obvious contradiction in discussion.

Let me outline boundaries again:
1) some people don't want to constantly be on path of progress, they like to reach their ceiling (knowing that they can't make it further), and then have fun in content available to them, with interruptions for twinks;
2) other people like to be constantly in duty of progress (and it doesn't matter if they don't have necessary skills, even trivial content should bring them "tangible benefits"), they don't need breaks, and they almost don't get any pleasure from content itself if one isn't related to the first;
3) game can't be made for both of these representatives, parameters aren't compatible
- if there is easy almost endless path - there is no ceiling, no time to stop, if there are stops - "workers" sooner or later become nothing to do and they aren't capable to "entertain" somehow themselves without virtual whip; here'd be to chide current content and gameplay for inferiority/insolvency/deficiency, it's very likely that this'd even be correct, but I'm not playing and will try to refrain from such comments, in the end, attracted target audience also changes along with change in ideology of these, which means... which means that whatever one may say, but fault is anyway lies with devs themself.

For reference, I rank myself in first category. It's desirable that gap in forces be within acceptable percentages for most of them. They don't need current inflation's level of ilvl/characteristics/power (amount and amplitude of difficulty lvls/tiers; class tiers can have almost same ilvl as dungeons's gear and differ only in small bonuses that smooth out shortcomings of particular class within selected content, will be mechanically more useful within raid and are quite insignificant outside of it, so they don't need any special category, this is still same PvE content, but dungeons themselves should only be as passing stage in progress hierarchy), min/max mentality concerns them very little (current class vs talents vs else $hitty design/hierarchy; they're rather be good with - this), which means that collecting gear for all "situations" will be rather perversion/whim of bored elit to them, BUT the very availability of opportunity to do this doesn't hinder them in any way. Is this understandable?

Now let's get back to the topic, idea of division is normal in itself (you overdid it with number of categories), but there is no need to "cure" current design (patient is more likely dead than alive, none of treatments will give any essential results), it's too intolerant, too demanding to conditions, it's too limited with boundaries everywhere, too intrusive (relies too much on automation ~aka players' narrowness/feeble-mindedness/lack of own will)... which means, yes, gear should be adjusted to game design, but first you need to get game back on digestible track. And then, when this happens, then minimal edits will be required. Here is how the things really are, guys.

ps. Personal criticism - there shouldn't be any bonuses that work like this here, there differently, and somewhere they don't work at all, same applies to any abilities. I can understand when this applies to CC in cases of PvP targets, but it's the only exception to basic rule. Non-working part should end at resilience characteristic indicator (or its analogs), in other words, characteristic itself won't work (not taken into account in formula), but in fact it's always working, but it will not apply to certain targets (as it was when nature attack wasn't working against robots, or any additional damage to demons/undeads, etc). Players mechanically are separate race in the game. The latter is the only exceptional moment in mechanics during realization of some lore moments. So, I suppose, that you already understand which of moments of your "solution" are at odds with such approach. Disabling and forgetting is a favorite "activity" of current devs, I'll never support such, you need to be more flexible and cunning.

[Clash the DK]

Alkizon, you have given me a great idea to solve the major issue with my design problem. Thank you!

I will update when I can better present the idea.

[Jastall]

It would have been great if they had understood this from the beginning instead of begrudgingly acknowledging it half a year into the expansion. But better late than never, I guess...

I do think they screwed that part up, yeah. Basically in 9.0 solo gearing is an absolute piece of cake... until you're 200. Then you hit a wall and have to do Normal+ raiding, 5+ keystones, or rated PvP to gear up at all. I do think there should be a limit to world content gearing (just below Heroic ilvl like in 9.1 seems ideal) but it should be a more gradual process to reach it, not handing free loot quickly and drying up the well so soon afterwards. Especially after Titanforging made world content possibly give upgrades for the entire xpack, the course correction on Blizzard's part was again too severe.

[ASecretOne]

I 100% agree with this idea. Content is so varied now that people gear up in mythics, raids, pvp, etc, that it would make sense that people could gear up in all those ways. Heck people might not have time to do that content but would still like to improve their power, hence world quests are the way to go (with it being balanced around being slower to gear up on average compared to the other ones). If Blizz can get the world quest pacing back to the likes of Legion I think that could definitely work.

[Soon-TM]

I 100% agree with this idea. Content is so varied now that people gear up in mythics, raids, pvp, etc, that it would make sense that people could gear up in all those ways. Heck people might not have time to do that content but would still like to improve their power, hence world quests are the way to go (with it being balanced around being slower to gear up on average compared to the other ones). If Blizz can get the world quest pacing back to the likes of Legion I think that could definitely work.

We can't have that, else the tiny hardcore minority would be in arms yelling at Mandatory™ content. And we have already seen how sensitive Ion can be to the demands of said minority.

[Blackmist]

If you unsub right now, there's an option on the "why are you unsubbing?" page of "The reward systems are not satisfying".

I hope when I come back that they'll at least have acknowledged that "You want a new outfit? Three months of grinding, fam." isn't a good way to implement your endgame in something you want people to play for 18-24 months.

[ASecretOne]

We can't have that, else the tiny hardcore minority would be in arms yelling at Mandatory™ content. And we have already seen how sensitive Ion can be to the demands of said minority.

And see that's where they are wrong, because nothing about it would be mandatory. Sure, if you want to be 100% efficient you do your mythics/raiding/pvp content and use world content to supplement the gear slots that aren't upgrading as quickly, otherwise everybody gets what they want. Heck even just having the bonuses only work for their respective content areas would be the fix for "mandatory" content where they get nothing but stats from it

[Clash the DK]

After taking some feedback into consideration, here is an alternative to the bonus gear system that I proposed originally.

I believe that some sort of bonus system is the right move to solve the problem, but I now believe that this theoretical bonus system doesn't necessarily have to be attached to the actual gear. So here is the new idea: basically there would be a separate PvE and PvP power bonus that you would gain after completing different levels of content. This system would be evergreen and the bonus would reset with every season/patch cycle. We would require a new panel maybe with a toggle button accessible from our character panel. Below is a rough example showing how it might look for a player progressing through any certain patch cycle:



This creates a bonus reward system for players who participate in more "difficult" content that translates into other similar areas of the game. By adding power through accomplishments, it reduces the need for the actual gear to be the main focal point of the rewards structure. This in turn, creates an avenue for world content gear to scale to maximum ilvl just like all other gear within each patch cycle. Gear progression is the rock that WoW was founded upon. And with this new proposed system, all content would provide a long rewarding path that puts all players on equal footing within the outside World...of Warcraft.

* Note that I did not overthink what exactly the bonus should be or it's relative value.

[munkeyinorbit]

After taking some feedback into consideration, here is an alternative to the bonus gear system that I proposed originally.

I believe that some sort of bonus system is the right move to solve the problem, but I now believe that this theoretical bonus system doesn't necessarily have to be attached to the actual gear. So here is the new idea: basically there would be a separate PvE and PvP power bonus that you would gain after completing different levels of content. This system would be evergreen and the bonus would reset with every season/patch cycle. We would require a new panel maybe with a toggle button accessible from our character panel. Below is a rough example showing how it might look for a player progressing through any certain patch cycle:
<removed image>
This creates a bonus reward system for players who participate in more "difficult" content that translates into other similar areas of the game. By adding power through accomplishments, it reduces the need for the actual gear to be the main focal point of the rewards structure. This in turn, creates an avenue for world content gear to scale to maximum ilvl just like all other gear within each patch cycle. Gear progression is the rock that WoW was founded upon. And with this new proposed system, all content would provide a long rewarding path that puts all players on equal footing within the outside World...of Warcraft.

* Note that I did not overthink what exactly the bonus should be or it's relative value.

Resilience with extra steps. Blizzard have tried this and it was deemed an epic failure. What's the point in having bonus damage on your gear when gear will do the same thing. The solo players should not get any gear at all. Right now they should all be ilvl 175, because that's all they have earned. You are ilvl 200 because of the good grace of actual casual players. The pretend casuals should stop coming up with convoluted systems that reward them with gear they don't deserve.

[arkanon]

Resilience with extra steps. Blizzard have tried this and it was deemed an epic failure. What's the point in having bonus damage on your gear when gear will do the same thing. The solo players should not get any gear at all. Right now they should all be ilvl 175, because that's all they have earned. You are ilvl 200 because of the good grace of actual casual players. The pretend casuals should stop coming up with convoluted systems that reward them with gear they don't deserve.

To me, its just another system on top of the systems we already have. And considering one of the few consistent complaints about SL and even BFA is that they have too many systems, I dont see anyone thinking adding MORE systems would be a good thing.

I think its particularly unusual considering how many "casuals" claim gearing was better for them in earlier expansions - expansions that had NONE of these additional systems, I find it especially unusual.

[Niwes]

Get a fucking grip with this conspiracy theorist bullshit. By your (and I'm being desperately generous with the use of this word) "logic", any requirement to achieve anything in the game before being rewarded with the absolute maximum reward possible encourages boosting and therefore is a "cash grab" by Blizzard because of the existence of the token. Blizzard doesn't encourage boosting by setting requirements on gear - lazy, useless morons who want rewards without any skill or effort invested on their own behalf encourage boosting. It's not even casuals that buy boosts because casuals literally do not care about reaching peak ilvl. It's entitled people wanting everything handed to them on a platter for the mere act of logging in that buy boosts, and then invent all the excuses under the sun about how they have jobs or whatever and that makes it literally impossible to actually play the game and that's why they need to buy boosts.

Your indignation is misplaced. Blizzard sell a product. It's the playerbase rot engendered by forums like this where laziness and mediocrity are celebrated that creates the market we currently see.

i can asure you, you are miles away from the truth. we (i am senior sw dev) build exactly this systems for exactly that reasons. and we have the statistics and data about customer types, age, behaviour and so on. and i can assure you too, your implications about who is paying for this stuff and who not, is horrible false. you can make millions and even billions with smart cash grab systems. its exactly what Blizzard do (beneath other things that ofc enhance profit too). not only in WoW or HS. its a modern industry standard and there is zero conspiracy involved. its just one of many aspects of the normal way to make profit of bigger companies in that industry. but you dont need to believe my words. ask other ppls in this industry. look at the amount of WTS entries in PUG tool. take a close look at the actual game design and ask yourself why is this and that, whats the game reason, for what its worth, why a leads to b and so on.

or i.e. use your browser, learn to use the web dev console and consider the wow api and wowprogress and take a look at how many ppl in BfA used a paid service to change their character into an allied race (which was the side profit stream in BfA). we talk about giant profit here. not about 5 die hard fans. these things are there to make millions. and they do. its not that lets say 3 mio ppl pay 12 bugs sub = 36 millions per month and very few pay a token (lets say 10.000) for another 70.000 dollar profit. its more like 50 millions where 36 comes from the subs and 14 mio from tokens. ask analysts, they will tell you (when not under NDA).

i dont wanna change your opinion here. i dont know who you are or foremost how old you are and whats your job and business is. i can just say that i do this since 21 years and making millions and billions with systems like token-apropriate game design and other smart cash grab system, is zero tinfoil hat and just a simple reality in this business. but most ppl not get this anyway. heck, most ppl not even realize that Blizz earns 7 bugs for every token ever passing the AH. thats why its a „smart“ cash grab system. you dont make huge profit with things like a shop. because it has obvious bad taste and customers ingame simply dont want these things because that shiny shob mount marks them as a shop buyer and this is negative associated ingame. therefore you will make a nice tiny side profit with shop, but you will not get rich with it. with smart cash grab systems you will. simply because its „integrated“ and not obvious. it feels like a win win. one not paying his sub. another one easily getting gold for RL money. also no china trader or gold farmer. all of this makes it a fluid well working system. imagine you have such a well working fluid system and everytime it works, you get 7 bugs for free, whenever someone of the winwin ppls „win“. it just works that way and it works like a charm.

but as i said, i do not wanna convince anyone here about the „truth“. i just state here whats reality in my and Blizzards business. thats all. if you think thats BS, is up to you.

[Clash the DK]

Resilience with extra steps. Blizzard have tried this and it was deemed an epic failure. What's the point in having bonus damage on your gear when gear will do the same thing. The solo players should not get any gear at all. Right now they should all be ilvl 175, because that's all they have earned. You are ilvl 200 because of the good grace of actual casual players. The pretend casuals should stop coming up with convoluted systems that reward them with gear they don't deserve.

What exactly does what I posted have anything to do with Resilience?

Did you actually read what I typed? This new bonus system wouldn't be attached to gear.

The rest of your statement is just trolling. That seems to be a pattern with you.

- - - Updated - - -

To me, its just another system on top of the systems we already have. And considering one of the few consistent complaints about SL and even BFA is that they have too many systems, I dont see anyone thinking adding MORE systems would be a good thing.

I think its particularly unusual considering how many "casuals" claim gearing was better for them in earlier expansions - expansions that had NONE of these additional systems, I find it especially unusual.

Systems that people complain most about are generally the type where you have to grind content for trivial power increases. See: Conduits in SLs
And then there have been problems with having too many additional active systems. See: Azerite+Corruption+Cloak in BfA.

But what I am suggesting is an passive bonus system. And that is noteworthy. It's more similar to being rewarded Flying for having done certain achievements. In this case, you are being rewarded power gains in certain content for having done certain achievements. Additionally, it's an evergreen system. It wouldn't be something temporary for a just a patch or expansion. It would be a fundamental aspect of gameplay going forward.

[arkanon]

If you unsub right now, there's an option on the "why are you unsubbing?" page of "The reward systems are not satisfying".

I hope when I come back that they'll at least have acknowledged that "You want a new outfit? Three months of grinding, fam." isn't a good way to implement your endgame in something you want people to play for 18-24 months.

But that's EXACTLY what some are asking for?!?!?!? the removal of rewards from difficult content, and instead have it all tied to easy, time consuming content.

[Clash the DK]

But that's EXACTLY what some are asking for?!?!?!? the removal of rewards from difficult content, and instead have it all tied to easy, time consuming content.

I can't speak for everyone, but the exact point of this thread is to come up with a way to adequately reward players who do more "difficult" content while allowing the same gear progression for players through world content. I believe my latest proposal is a viable solution.

[arkanon]

I can't speak for everyone, but the exact point of this thread is to come up with a way to adequately reward players who do more "difficult" content while allowing the same gear progression for players through world content. I believe my latest proposal is a viable solution.

What "problem" does offering those who complete group content an even larger lead over those who dont solve?

I ask because by far the most common complaint around here at least, is players who cant/wont do group content complaining that those who do have vastly better gear, and that is making it "impossible" to find a group if they do decide they want to. This "solution" only seems to exacerbate that "problem".

So I ask again - what problem is this a solution for?

[Zyky]

This is boring, couldn't you think of anything more interesting than 5% stat and stam? -.-

[arkanon]

This is boring, couldn't you think of anything more interesting than 5% stat and stam? -.-

IMO, the whole concept is.....unnecessary. Like a solution in search of a problem - i expect to see many more amendments and iterations of this as each individual says "but that doesnt help ME" and eventually we end up full circle back to where we are now - essentially the same loot and progression system we have had for nearly 2 decades.

Specifically to your point, yes, I personally find mindless 5% increases to be extremely boring - and something that naturally happens by obtaining better loot anyway...

[Zyky]

IMO, the whole concept is.....unnecessary. Like a solution in search of a problem - i expect to see many more amendments and iterations of this as each individual says "but that doesnt help ME" and eventually we end up full circle back to where we are now - essentially the same loot and progression system we have had for nearly 2 decades.

Specifically to your point, yes, I personally find mindless 5% increases to be extremely boring - and something that naturally happens by obtaining better loot anyway...

I do think there is a fundamental problem right now with the gearing system. I've always Mythic, old Heroic, Raided and since Legion it's felt obnoxious that every single tier 50-70% of my BiS is from M+ RNG loot chest. The question is how does the system get fixed so that you can keep both communities happy? Set bonuses is realistically the only thing I can personally think of that can solve the issue without entirely removing a feature of the game. The other option, which is significantly more boring is to just remove garbage versatility and make every piece have all 3 secondary stats.