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  1. #661
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    So, when you said "Care about and take care of"... what you meant to say was the complete opposite of that...
    There are more than just the minimum wage jobs, y'know. Not every employee at every level is treated poorly or paid unfair wages.

  2. #662
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    There are more than just the minimum wage jobs, y'know. Not every employee at every level is treated poorly or paid unfair wages.
    That's still a long way away from "Companies care of and take care of their employees". You've shifted to "Well, they don't exploit every employee"

  3. #663
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    That's still a long way away from "Companies care of and take care of their employees". You've shifted to "Well, they don't exploit every employee"
    Do you have something to add to the conversation or are you just going to pick apart my posts?

  4. #664
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Do you have something to add to the conversation or are you just going to pick apart my posts?
    If your posts had any consistency I wouldn't have to pick them apart.

  5. #665
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    There are more than just the minimum wage jobs, y'know. Not every employee at every level is treated poorly or paid unfair wages.
    The scale is set upon that unfair baseline, however. Sure, a Neurosurgeon making $400k/year isn't likely affected, but if you're making less than six figures, there's likely some dragging down of your wages due to how unfair the floor is.

    Particularly for everyone currently making between $7.25 and, oh, around $21or so an hour, where a minimum living wage would be set.

  6. #666
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The scale is set upon that unfair baseline, however. Sure, a Neurosurgeon making $400k/year isn't likely affected, but if you're making less than six figures, there's likely some dragging down of your wages due to how unfair the floor is.

    Particularly for everyone currently making between $7.25 and, oh, around $21or so an hour, where a minimum living wage would be set.
    No disagreement there. The bottom line will of course be dragging down the rest, however those in the middle are typically being paid/ compensated based on the average of those in the same position within the industry. That's what I'm saying is "fair," as the wage is based on market value, so to speak. The same is not true for those at the bottom where minimum wage varies considerably across the country.

    If the floor was changed, I'm sure the rest would change to, I'm just not sure by how much and how far up the scale.

  7. #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    You're right, I chose my words poorly. "Taking care of" is not the right term. I just meant that they'll pay them based on the industry average for those positions, in many cases that's minimum, or below livable wages.
    Not necessarily and thats again the point you're missing. They won't pay based on "an average" they will pay as little as they can. That's true for literally any position because a wage is a negotiation and all negotiations are power dynamics. Whomever has more leverage will do better and businesses almost aways have more leverage.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #668
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Not necessarily and thats again the point you're missing. They won't pay based on "an average" they will pay as little as they can. That's true for literally any position because a wage is a negotiation and all negotiations are power dynamics. Whomever has more leverage will do better and businesses almost aways have more leverage.
    Yes, but the range that they offer for those positions is based on the industry average, typically. They'll obviously try and get away with as little as possible. But if a position had a range of say $50k -$60k, they won't offer $30k, and certainly not minimum wage. They'll offer as close to the $50k that they think they can get away with, true, and admittedly they might try to go lower than that but not by much and expect the applicant to take the job offer seriously. But that doesn't mean the applicant has to accept that offer. Ultimately again, it is up to the employee to accept the offer or not.

    As I said before, businesses are greedy, they're not stupid (usually).

  9. #669
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    But that doesn't mean the applicant has to accept that offer. Ultimately again, it is up to the employee to accept the offer or not.
    This blatantly ignores economic reality and present the decision to work for a particular employer as if it were an actual honest choice. Its not. You have to be a psychopath to think being robbed at gun point is a choice.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #670
    The Insane Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    But that doesn't mean the applicant has to accept that offer.
    Actually, it often does. Refusing an offer generally gets your unemployment benefits yanked, especially when you consider the self-harming red state governments.

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
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  11. #671
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Ultimately again, it is up to the employee to accept the offer or not.
    There is no choice when your options are to accept slave wages or roll over and die...
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  12. #672
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Yes, but the range that they offer for those positions is based on the industry average, typically. They'll obviously try and get away with as little as possible. But if a position had a range of say $50k -$60k, they won't offer $30k, and certainly not minimum wage. They'll offer as close to the $50k that they think they can get away with, true, and admittedly they might try to go lower than that but not by much and expect the applicant to take the job offer seriously. But that doesn't mean the applicant has to accept that offer. Ultimately again, it is up to the employee to accept the offer or not.

    As I said before, businesses are greedy, they're not stupid (usually).
    The problem with an "industry average" is that it is an average that is set by the industry. The industry that will , as you put it, obviously try and get away with as little as possible.

  13. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    There is no choice when your options are to accept slave wages or roll over and die...
    There is a choice. Those people should choose to work for a "slave wage" temporarily while they increase their knowledge and marketable skills up to a level that would allow them to get a better job. A non-slave wage job. At any given point in time people should get the best job they can get, even if they feel they are underpaid.
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  14. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    There is a choice. Those people should choose to work for a "slave wage" temporarily while they increase their knowledge and marketable skills up to a level that would allow them to get a better job. A non-slave wage job. At any given point in time people should get the best job they can get, even if they feel they are underpaid.
    Okay so this is progress because you've admitted that some jobs are actually utter slave wagery. Now none of what you said here explains the mechanism by which one can work for a slave wage and support ones self (let alone any dependants) and simultaneously upgrade their skill set but I'm sure you'll tell me some bs story about some dude you knew who worked 3 jobs to afford his community college degree.

    Oh and none of that is a choice btw any more than its a choice to give the mugger your wallet
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2021-06-06 at 06:25 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #675
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    There is a choice. Those people should choose to work for a "slave wage" temporarily while they increase their knowledge and marketable skills up to a level that would allow them to get a better job. A non-slave wage job. At any given point in time people should get the best job they can get, even if they feel they are underpaid.
    How are they affording that training while making a slave wage?

    All your arguments boil down to "just, like, stop being poor". It's asinine.

  16. #676
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    This blatantly ignores economic reality and present the decision to work for a particular employer as if it were an actual honest choice. Its not. You have to be a psychopath to think being robbed at gun point is a choice.
    It is still a choice.

    I agree with you that it's often a terrible, unfair and exploited choice, but no potential employer is literally holding a gun to the applicant's head and forcing them to take the job. The applicant still has to accept the job of their own free will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    Actually, it often does. Refusing an offer generally gets your unemployment benefits yanked, especially when you consider the self-harming red state governments.
    That has nothing to do with the employer though, and is still a choice the applicant is making. Take the job or lose those benefits. Again, I agree that it's often a terribly unfair choice, but the employee still has to willingly accept the job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    There is no choice when your options are to accept slave wages or roll over and die...
    Just because it's a shitty choice, doesn't mean it's NOT a choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    The problem with an "industry average" is that it is an average that is set by the industry. The industry that will , as you put it, obviously try and get away with as little as possible.
    The industry average is very heavily influenced by the industry, yes, but it's also influenced by the people who take those jobs. For the kinds of positions I'm talking about here, employees do have SOME bargaining power and can negotiate a higher compensation and therefore affect the industry average. I won't pretend that minimum wage workers have any bargaining power here, because they don't.

    All that said, this is why I advocate for things like increased minimum wage, UBI, universal health care, etc... because it would mean the choice the employee's have to make would be much more balanced instead of the terribly unfair one they have now. They wouldn't have to decide between a shitty job with shitty pay to barely survive or ....what essentially amounts to probably not surviving.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    There is a choice. Those people should choose to work for a "slave wage" temporarily while they increase their knowledge and marketable skills up to a level that would allow them to get a better job. A non-slave wage job. At any given point in time people should get the best job they can get, even if they feel they are underpaid.
    First, you're assuming people working slave wages can afford training, either monetarily or time wise, which is a ridiculous assumption. Second, you're acting like people in this situation have the pick of any one of the slave wage jobs available, and are able to be selective about which one they take, which is garbage.

  17. #677
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Just because it's a shitty choice, doesn't mean it's NOT a choice.
    If one of your options is death there is no choice......
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  18. #678
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    How are they affording that training while making a slave wage?

    All your arguments boil down to "just, like, stop being poor". It's asinine.
    by saving money and investing it into their own education

    instead spending it on stuff they dont need in order to impress people who dont care about them .

  19. #679
    Warchief Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    by saving money and investing it into their own education

    instead spending it on stuff they dont need in order to impress people who dont care about them .
    lol... how the fuck do you save money for an education if you don't have anything left at the end of the month?

  20. #680
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post


    Just because it's a shitty choice, doesn't mean it's NOT a choice.

    That's exactly what it means. Again the gunman holding you at gun point and saying your life or your wallet is also technically offering you a choice. No rational sane person actually accepts that this is actually a choice. You have to be either a psychopath or a right wing libertarian to consider that a choice.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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