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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    lol... how the fuck do you save money for an education if you don't have anything left at the end of the month?
    He thinks every single poor person is running around with the latest iPhone and flat screen TV and whatnot.

  2. #682
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Now none of what you said here explains the mechanism by which one can work for a slave wage and support ones self (let alone any dependants) and simultaneously upgrade their skill set but I'm sure you'll tell me some bs story about some dude you knew who worked 3 jobs to afford his community college degree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    How are they affording that training while making a slave wage?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    lol... how the fuck do you save money for an education if you don't have anything left at the end of the month?
    Knowledge is nearly free on the internet. People don't need a piece of paper from a formal institution.

    Everyone can learn more, and improve, and gain more skills every day regardless of how poor they are. Simply keep learning how to solve more and harder problems and you'll get better and better jobs overtime as your skillset increases. There is infinite opportunity in the economy going forward.

    Maybe people want UBI and they can want whatever they want, but the idea that people can't make it unless the government gives them more stuff is just a myth.
    Optimism! (HumanProgress.org)

  3. #683
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    lol... how the fuck do you save money for an education if you don't have anything left at the end of the month?
    to answer this - you do it easily -you simply work more.

    if your 40 hours per week is not enough for you then work 60 hours a week .

    if working 60 hours per week is not enough ? move to another city / emigrate since your state/country is to poor to live there.

    with US passport it shouldnt be that hard

    hint - thats what hundreds of milions of people all over the world do .

    why should US citizens be special in this regard.

  4. #684
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Knowledge is nearly free on the internet. People don't need a piece of paper from a formal institution.

    Everyone can learn more, and improve, and gain more skills every day regardless of how poor they are. Simply keep learning how to solve more and harder problems and you'll get better and better jobs overtime as your skillset increases. There is infinite opportunity in the economy going forward.

    Maybe people want UBI and they can want whatever they want, but the idea that people can't make it unless the government gives them more stuff is just a myth.
    This is so deluded that frankly its hard to know where to begin. Most employers above entry level positions seek candidates with qualifications usually from an institute of higher learning. Free knowledge from the internet doesn't qualify.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #685
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    by saving money and investing it into their own education

    instead spending it on stuff they dont need in order to impress people who dont care about them .
    You don't have any comprehension of poverty, then.

    We're talking people who can't afford to put three meals on the table consistently. They don't have money to save.

    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Knowledge is nearly free on the internet. People don't need a piece of paper from a formal institution.
    If you want to apply that knowledge to a job? You absolutely need that piece of paper from a formal institution.

    Try becoming a doctor without an MD, or a plumber without certification. You won't just not find employers willing to hire you, if you try to freelance, you will be charged with fraud if you get reported.

    Also, you've ignored some critical factors. Namely, that the Internet is not free. That equipment to access the internet is not free. That time to invest in doing so is not free. And so on.

    Maybe people want UBI and they can want whatever they want, but the idea that people can't make it unless the government gives them more stuff is just a myth.
    A cursory examination of human history demonstrates that you are completely wrong about this. You're denying basic reality at this point. If you were right, poverty wouldn't exist, historically. It does, ergo, you're wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    to answer this - you do it easily -you simply work more.

    if your 40 hours per week is not enough for you then work 60 hours a week .

    if working 60 hours per week is not enough ? move to another city / emigrate since your state/country is to poor to live there.

    with US passport it shouldnt be that hard

    hint - thats what hundreds of milions of people all over the world do .

    why should US citizens be special in this regard.
    Why the hell would any other country take a US citizen's application for immigration, when said US citizen has no employment and can't support themselves?

    Your application would be flatly denied here in Canada, at least. US citizens aren't a "win" for other countries just by virtue of being American.


  6. #686
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    This is so deluded that frankly its hard to know where to begin. Most employers above entry level positions seek candidates with qualifications usually from an institute of higher learning. Free knowledge from the internet doesn't qualify.
    I couldn't care less about resume requirements. If I can do a particular job then I'll prove to the employer that I have more merit than the other cookie cutter applicants. Society makes fake rules about what you "officially" need or don't need. Nobody should care about fake rules and fake requirements.
    Optimism! (HumanProgress.org)

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I couldn't care less about resume requirements. If I can do a particular job then I'll prove to the employer that I have more merit than the other cookie cutter applicants. Society makes fake rules about what you "officially" need or don't need. Nobody should care about fake rules and fake requirements.
    bruh, the the point is they won't even look past your application unless you meet their (to be fair arbitrary) requirements. no amount of chipper go getter attitude is going to get past that for most people.

  8. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I couldn't care less about resume requirements. If I can do a particular job then I'll prove to the employer that I have more merit than the other cookie cutter applicants. Society makes fake rules about what you "officially" need or don't need. Nobody should care about fake rules and fake requirements.
    Just more proof of a near total lack of life experience.
    You can't even go to a temp agency, where most companies will go to for workers that are the focus here, and the first thing an agency wants is a resume.

  9. #689
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I couldn't care less about resume requirements. If I can do a particular job then I'll prove to the employer that I have more merit than the other cookie cutter applicants. Society makes fake rules about what you "officially" need or don't need. Nobody should care about fake rules and fake requirements.
    If you knew anything about hiring, literally anything, you'd know that lacking necessary credentials just gets your application shitcanned without a callback. You'd never get any chance to "prove" what merit you have, because the employer has 50 resumes that do have the credentials they need and they won't waste their time with yours.

    This isn't even new: that's been standard hiring practice for decades.


  10. #690
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I couldn't care less about resume requirements. If I can do a particular job then I'll prove to the employer that I have more merit than the other cookie cutter applicants. Society makes fake rules about what you "officially" need or don't need. Nobody should care about fake rules and fake requirements.
    This is so utterly out of touch with reality that one can only wonder if it's a person replying or an ill programmed bot. I'll address the bots talking point just in case any actual humans feel this way. While the bot might not care about "fake rules and fake requirements" the employer certainly does. They're not going to give the bot an opportunity to "prove to the employer that i have more merit" if they don't already meet the qualifications. In fact that's literally why almost any hiring offers state a list of qualifications right from the get go. That's why I say this must be a bot because if you ever applied for a job you would have had this experience. It isn't "society" it's literally the employer listing the required qualifications for an applicant. Again this is so basic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If you knew anything about hiring, literally anything, you'd know that lacking necessary credentials just gets your application shitcanned without a callback. You'd never get any chance to "prove" what merit you have, because the employer has 50 resumes that do have the credentials they need and they won't waste their time with yours.

    This isn't even new: that's been standard hiring practice for decades.
    Again this is literally the most just basic part of finding a job. Even a fucking child would know this. Even entry level bullshit positions will require a certain level of education. Like even just a box that says level of education check highschool.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #691
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Again this is literally the most just basic part of finding a job. Even a fucking child would know this. Even entry level bullshit positions will require a certain level of education. Like even just a box that says level of education check highschool.
    "Oh, I don't need a high school diploma, or even a GED. You can just trust me because I used Google a lot so I know stuff."

    Like, who the fuck would ever accept that in an interview?

    It's so clueless it practically has to be deliberate dishonesty.


  12. #692
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    If one of your options is death there is no choice......
    If the option was literally death, I'd agree. But it's not. You do not literally die if you don't accept the job. Acting like that is the case is being overly dramatic. Will life suck and be hard? Of course, I'm not denying that it's a tough choice but the choice is not literally between take the job or die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    That's exactly what it means. Again the gunman holding you at gun point and saying your life or your wallet is also technically offering you a choice. No rational sane person actually accepts that this is actually a choice. You have to be either a psychopath or a right wing libertarian to consider that a choice.
    No one is holding a gun to your head to accept a job. Acting like the two situations are identical is crazy.

    In the metaphor you're using where you literally have a gun to your head the choice has to be made RIGHT NOW, and the choices are literally, give me your wallet or die. I 100% agree that there's no choice there. That is NOT what happens when choosing to accept a job or not. Choosing to not accept the job will not literally mean you will absolutely 100% die, and certainly not die right then and there, if at all. Yes, life will be hard. Hard =/= death.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Knowledge is nearly free on the internet. People don't need a piece of paper from a formal institution.

    Everyone can learn more, and improve, and gain more skills every day regardless of how poor they are. Simply keep learning how to solve more and harder problems and you'll get better and better jobs overtime as your skillset increases. There is infinite opportunity in the economy going forward.
    All of this is so disconnected with reality I don't even know where to start.

    1) Where do they get access to the internet?
    2) What knowledge should they gain, but more importantly, how effective will it be if you just "learned it from the internet?"
    3) What skills should they focus on? How would they KNOW which skills to focus on?
    4) What skills can they actually learn and be effective at if they never put them into practice on an actual job site?
    5) I can promise you that anyone who says their knowledge and skills came from the internet, and put that on their resume, would likely never even get an interview.

    I agree with you that people don't necessarily need a piece of paper from a formal institution (depending on the position, as a degree is required in MANY industries), but they absolutely DO need actual on the job experience proving they know how to do a job.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I couldn't care less about resume requirements. If I can do a particular job then I'll prove to the employer that I have more merit than the other cookie cutter applicants. Society makes fake rules about what you "officially" need or don't need. Nobody should care about fake rules and fake requirements.
    No you won't, because you won't ever be given the opportunity to prove it.

    And as @Endus said, in some cases they are not "fake" rules and requirements. It's literally the law.
    Last edited by Katchii; 2021-06-06 at 05:23 PM.

  13. #693
    Warchief Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Knowledge is nearly free on the internet. People don't need a piece of paper from a formal institution.

    Everyone can learn more, and improve, and gain more skills every day regardless of how poor they are. Simply keep learning how to solve more and harder problems and you'll get better and better jobs overtime as your skillset increases. There is infinite opportunity in the economy going forward.

    Maybe people want UBI and they can want whatever they want, but the idea that people can't make it unless the government gives them more stuff is just a myth.
    doesn't matter how much you've read on internet if you have nothing to show for it...

  14. #694
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post

    No one is holding a gun to your head to accept a job. Acting like the two situations are identical is crazy.
    The point is that in the one instance the consequences of the choice are so bad that it really leaves you with no choice. Not accepting the offer means poverty, immiseration, hunger, destitution, homelessness, and precarity. Just like the mugger scenario their is NO CHOICE. You can continue to deny the economic reality of the situation but it does not change the fact. Either you accept that a "choice" with extremely poor consequences is not really a choice (as in the case of the mugger) or you accept it all a choice. Only a psychopath would argue that you had a choice...
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2021-06-06 at 05:58 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #695
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    doesn't matter how much you've read on internet if you have nothing to show for it...
    Okay so create something that shows you are excellent in a given domain. Complete a project. If you're going into software then make a program that addresses an unsolved problem. Or let's say I needed a job as a janitor I could make a video of me turning a disgusting bathroom into a room that is cleaner than a surgery operating room in less than 5 minutes. It will blow their socks off.

    People need to get creative and stop playing into the culture of hoop jumping and standardization which just creates cookie cutter people.
    Optimism! (HumanProgress.org)

  16. #696
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Okay so create something that shows you are excellent in a given domain. Complete a project. If you're going into software then make a program that addresses an unsolved problem. Or let's say I needed a job as a janitor I could make a video of me turning a disgusting bathroom into a room that is cleaner than a surgery operating room in less than 5 minutes. It will blow their socks off.
    They are not going to evaluate your project. They are just going to toss your application for being unqualified. They do not have time to evaluate your abilities. That's the entire point of accreditation programs; some other entity has taken on the responsibility for ensuring a standard level of skill requirements, so all employers need to do is verify that you have said accreditation.

    Ironically, however, some people have created something to let students show they're skilled in a particular domain. That's all those accreditation programs you're dismissing out of hand.

    People need to get creative and stop playing into the culture of hoop jumping and standardization which just creates cookie cutter people.
    If you're trying to "be creative", you're an artist, not someone seeking employment in a major industry.

    Which I'm not crapping on, mind you.

    But nobody's going to take the time to evaluate you for hours just to make sure you're as good as anyone with certification; they'll just take someone who's actually certified rather than wasting their time with you. You will not ever get hired pursuing education the way you're describing. Not ever. Even historically, guilds and such have existed for centuries to ensure people making claims to skills have proper credentials and training.


  17. #697
    Nepotism is the unsurprising explanation here.

  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Nepotism is the unsurprising explanation here.
    I mean, there is a grain of truth to the claim that you don't go to college to learn but to create connections. at the very least when it comes to the clap trap that is Ivy league schools.

  19. #699
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Okay so create something that shows you are excellent in a given domain. Complete a project. If you're going into software then make a program that addresses an unsolved problem. Or let's say I needed a job as a janitor I could make a video of me turning a disgusting bathroom into a room that is cleaner than a surgery operating room in less than 5 minutes. It will blow their socks off.

    People need to get creative and stop playing into the culture of hoop jumping and standardization which just creates cookie cutter people.
    That's nice, but you are still not getting an interview, or anyone to come to take a look at your project. You appear to have some ridiculous, romanticized view of how things work, here.

    And lol at making a program to address an unsolved problem with your internet chops. How and where would you even begin to look for such a problem, genius? Ask your government or some industry real nicely? And I believe we are still talking about poor people, mind you. If they had money, they'd get an education and do it like everyone else.
    Last edited by Santti; 2021-06-06 at 07:22 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransath View Post
    Money laundering, especially prior to his election? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The point is that in the one instance the consequences of the choice are so bad that it really leaves you with no choice. Not accepting the offer means poverty, immiseration, hunger, destitution, homelessness, and precarity.
    100% of the time? In every single case? Every single person who is offered a job has to make the choice between taking the job or living in poverty, hunger, destitution, homelessness and precarity?

    If the answer to this was yes, I'd agree with you. But it's not. I'm not pretending that situations might be that bad for some people, but there is a LOT of middle ground here. Not every single scenario is that extreme.

    Just like the mugger scenario their is NO CHOICE. You can continue to deny the economic reality of the situation but it does not change the fact. Either you accept that a "choice" with extremely poor consequences is not really a choice (as in the case of the mugger) or you accept it all a choice. Only a psychopath would argue that you had a choice...
    You're argument is predicated on the idea that every single scenario is that extreme. That's just not true.

    I have never argued that it's a fair choice, it's a shitty one. But their is STILL a choice. Deny that reality all you want, but the fact remains the person being offered the job has to choose to willingly accept it. The employer is not forcing them to take that job. Their individual situations are what dictate how easy or difficult that choice is.

    You're focusing too much on my way of thinking about the problem here, and not what the solutions are. You and I seem to be on the same side here as far as how to fix this. Implement things that improve everyone's situation by making it so they know they'll have healthcare, know they'll have some money from UBI, know they'll be able to make a decent living off an increased minimum wage.

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