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  1. #741
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    You disagree that if you don't eat or get the meds/healthcare you need you will die?

    What reality do you live in?

    People work salve wages because they don't have any other choice because the other "choice" is death. Unless you can prove that eating isn't required to live..
    I disagree with the assertion that there is no choice involved in the situation, that's all. And I've said that multiple times.

  2. #742
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I disagree with the assertion that there is no choice involved in the situation, that's all. And I've said that multiple times.
    So you see death as a choice, Kinda fucked up and says a lot about you.
    Check me out....Im └(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┐└(-.-)┐ Dancing, Im └(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┐└(-.-)┐ Dancing.
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  3. #743
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    So you see death as a choice, Kinda fucked up and says a lot about you.
    Read the rest of my posts, and all the words in them, if you actually want to see my thoughts. I've already expressed them multiple times so I'm not going to rehash them again.

  4. #744
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Read the rest of my posts, and all the words in them, if you actually want to see my thoughts. I've already expressed them multiple times so I'm not going to rehash them again.
    I guess you don't know a single person who at some point in their life didn't have enough money to buy food. You can't even imagine what that is like.

  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    I guess you don't know a single person who at some point in their life didn't have enough money to buy food. You can't even imagine what that is like.
    I have met, known and personally helped several actually. And my stance remains the same, specifically BECAUSE I know first hand what options are available for people in these situations. The choice is NOT "take this job or die." I'll accept that in these kinds of situations it's likely "take this job or have a hard time for who knows how long" but those are not remotely the same thing.

    Do their situations suck? Yes. My view on the matter doesn't change that...at all. But do I want to fix their situation? Absolutely!

    Literally the only thing people seem to be disagreeing with me on is whether there is choice involved. We seem to align on everything else.

  6. #746
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    So you see death as a choice, Kinda fucked up and says a lot about you.
    His heart seems to be in the right place.
    Just lacks the clarity that really crappy experiences bring.

  7. #747
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I have met, known and personally helped several actually. And my stance remains the same, specifically BECAUSE I know first hand what options are available for people in these situations. The choice is NOT "take this job or die." I'll accept that in these kinds of situations it's likely "take this job or have a hard time for who knows how long" but those are not remotely the same thing.

    Do their situations suck? Yes. My view on the matter doesn't change that...at all. But do I want to fix their situation? Absolutely!

    Literally the only thing people seem to be disagreeing with me on is whether there is choice involved. We seem to align on everything else.
    Destitution, emisseration, homelessness,poverty, malnutrition (never mind starvation) are more than just "having a hard time"
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #748
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Destitution, emisseration, homelessness,poverty, malnutrition (never mind starvation) are more than just "having a hard time"
    And what part of "I want to fix this" are you not understanding?

  9. #749
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    And what part of "I want to fix this" are you not understanding?
    Probably the part where you are like "Well, they had a choice..."

  10. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Probably the part where you are like "Well, they had a choice..."
    The person went looking for a job, picked (aka chose) the ones they want to apply for, interviewed for them (probably), and was ultimately offered a job and CHOSE to take it. They would not have the job unless they chose to do all (or most) of those things. That is a fact. I am not denying the horrible circumstances that forced them into that situation, and never have.

    I'm seriously not understanding why accepting that the above circumstances as fact is such a horrible thing, it does not deny that their situation is horrible and needs fixing.

    Why are you so fixated on this?

  11. #751
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    The person went looking for a job, picked (aka chose) the ones they want to apply for, interviewed for them (probably), and was ultimately offered a job and CHOSE to take it. They would not have the job unless they chose to do all (or most) of those things. That is a fact. I am not denying the horrible circumstances that forced them into that situation, and never have.

    I'm seriously not understanding why accepting that the above circumstances as fact is such a horrible thing, it does not deny that their situation is horrible and needs fixing.

    Why are you so fixated on this?
    Because it isn't a free choice. It's like saying someone has a "choice" when someone holds a gun to their head and makes them sign a contract. Duress is generally considered to nullify the validity of any contract, legally speaking, unless it's an employment contract, that's just how all employment contracts work and is the basis of the entire economic system don't pay attention to the slaver behind the curtain.

    Saying they got to pick what jobs they applied for is like saying a slave got to pick if they were a field slave or a mine slave. That's not a real choice. "Not be a slave" isn't on their list of options.


  12. #752
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Because it isn't a free choice.
    Technically, it is. Them being in a dire situation where they absolutely need money doesn't mean their free will is gone. They're free to make whatever choice they have available to them, just like anyone else. I 100% acknowledge that their list of choices is very limited compared to others, though.

    But other "choices" do exist besides "get a job" to make money. Some may not be legal, and some are shall I say...not savory, but that doesn't mean people don't make that choice. Don't @ me here, you know as well as I do that people make these decisions. Yes, I 1000% agree they shouldn't have to make these decisions which is why I want to fix things.

    Acting like getting a job in this situation is an automatic thing and the ONLY choice is denying reality.

    It's like saying someone has a "choice" when someone holds a gun to their head and makes them sign a contract. Duress is generally considered to nullify the validity of any contract, legally speaking, unless it's an employment contract, that's just how all employment contracts work and is the basis of the entire economic system don't pay attention to the slaver behind the curtain.
    Again with this gun analogy.

    As I said before, if "take this job or die" were literally the ONLY options. I'd agree. But that is not the case.

    My point is, them getting a job is not a foregone conclusion. It's not automatic. Being in this situation does not automatically mean they get a minimum wage job that barely pays the bills. They HAD to chose to go do all those things I talked about before to get the job.

    It being an easy choice because their situation is so bad does not remove their free will and the fact that choices were made.

    Saying they got to pick what jobs they applied for is like saying a slave got to pick if they were a field slave or a mine slave. That's not a real choice. "Not be a slave" isn't on their list of options.
    Even upper middle class people are slaves to their debts and bills and whatnot. They have to work too. There aren't very many people where the choice "not be a slave" is actually a viable option.

    You're a "Teacher" slave (IIRC about your profession, correct me if I'm wrong). You have bills to pay, right? You couldn't stop working completely and be able to live comfortably for long (assumption, as most people can't, but I don't know your personal situation). If you stopped working eventually you'd be in a similar situation where you had to figure out where your next meal was coming from and when or if you could pay the bills. The difference is that your professional background expands your potential choices for employment when you needed to find it in order to get more money to pay the bills.

    The only people not slaves to that situation (ie having to work to pay for their bills) are those so rich they have more money than they know what to do with (which includes those born into it), or those living completely off the grid somewhere...but even they are slaves to their own needs and are required to make certain decisions about how to survive. They can't just decide not to go hunting/gathering, or not to build a shelter, etc...

    Everyone else has choices to make about how they're going to pay their bills. Those at the bottom also have the added misfortune of even after slaving away, possibly not having enough to pay their bills, buy food, etc...

    Those at the bottom also admittedly don't get all the perks that those in upper classes have while dealing with those same issues/ choices (all the creature comforts) but that doesn't mean they aren't slaves, the upper classes are more comfortable, better rewarded slaves (aside from the ultra rich, which would be like the ruling class that owns the slaves in this analogy).

    Which is why the fix is to provide EVERYONE the basic needs so everyone is a "comfortable slave." Because as long as money is a requirement for surviving, EVERYONE is a slave to it.

  13. #753
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    snip
    This is really asinine. What the hell is the point of all this "Actually, you still have a choice!" bullshit? Yeah, tell that to the guy who is offered the choice between homelessness/starvation and picking the jobs that pay like shit, and being barely able to sustain themselves. I'm sure he will feel much better for being told that.

    Stop being a smartass over this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransath View Post
    Money laundering, especially prior to his election? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

  14. #754
    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    This is really asinine. What the hell is the point of all this "Actually, you still have a choice!" bullshit? Yeah, tell that to the guy who is offered the choice between homelessness/starvation and picking the jobs that pay like shit, and being barely able to sustain themselves. I'm sure he will feel much better for being told that.

    Stop being a smartass over this.
    You're never going to convince me that there are literally no choices involved here. I have never once argued that they aren't unfair, unbalanced choices, but they ARE choices. The person involved doesn't just automatically end up with the job because of their situation. They have to DO something to get that job, ANY job. That means they had to choose something.

    Why is that so hard to accept? Why is it such a horrible thing to accept that, as easy and unfair of a choice as it is, it is still a choice?

  15. #755
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    You're never going to convince me that there are literally no choices involved here. I have never once argued that they aren't unfair, unbalanced choices, but they ARE choices. The person involved doesn't just automatically end up with the job because of their situation. They have to DO something to get that job, ANY job. That means they had to choose something.

    Why is that so hard to accept? Why is it such a horrible thing to accept that, as easy and unfair of a choice as it is, it is still a choice?
    Because it's playing games. When we talk about choices, we mean meaningful choices. Giving a death-row inmate a "choice" of the firing squad or the gallows is not really a meaningful choice; the meaningful choice, about whether he can continue to live or not, has already been taken from him. Claiming it's his choice to die when he's only choosing the means of his death is not justifiable.

    Similarly, with jobs, you're so focused on people's ability to choose which shitty job they take that you never get around to the meaningful choice; whether they should be taking a shitty job at all.

    Would you rather stick your hand in the blender, or the meat grinder? Or maybe a pot of boiling oil is more to your taste? What's that, you don't want to stick your hand in any of these? That's not your choice, you only get to pick how your hand is ruined.

    See the problem, yet?


  16. #756
    Hobson's choice

    1 : an apparently free choice when there is no real alternative
    2 : the necessity of accepting one of two or more equally objectionable alternatives

  17. #757
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Because it's playing games. When we talk about choices, we mean meaningful choices. Giving a death-row inmate a "choice" of the firing squad or the gallows is not really a meaningful choice; the meaningful choice, about whether he can continue to live or not, has already been taken from him. Claiming it's his choice to die when he's only choosing the means of his death is not justifiable.

    Similarly, with jobs, you're so focused on people's ability to choose which shitty job they take that you never get around to the meaningful choice; whether they should be taking a shitty job at all.

    Would you rather stick your hand in the blender, or the meat grinder? Or maybe a pot of boiling oil is more to your taste? What's that, you don't want to stick your hand in any of these? That's not your choice, you only get to pick how your hand is ruined.

    See the problem, yet?
    All of this ignores that choices are still being made. You denying that fact because their situation is terrible is dodging or denying that reality. You're so focused on the idea it's not really a real choice because the options are shitty, therefore no choice is being made, and that's objectively false. You're using the idea of duress to negate that a choice exists, which is also objectively false. Legally speaking, duress just makes it so that choice is not your fault and that you can't be held accountable to that choice, but it does not completely negate or deny the fact that a choice was made at all. For the idea of duress to exist in that context, the choice HAS TO EXIST and HAD TO BE MADE for that argument to ever be used in the first place that you made the choice while under duress.

  18. #758
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    All of this ignores that choices are still being made. You denying that fact because their situation is terrible is dodging or denying that reality. You're so focused on the idea it's not really a real choice because the options are shitty, therefore no choice is being made, and that's objectively false. You're using the idea of duress to negate that a choice exists, which is also objectively false. Legally speaking, duress just makes it so that choice is not your fault and that you can't be held accountable to that choice, but it does not completely negate or deny the fact that a choice was made at all. For the idea of duress to exist in that context, the choice HAS TO EXIST and HAD TO BE MADE for that argument to ever be used in the first place that you made the choice while under duress.
    The point is that the choices that actually matter cant be made. Just because some dumb shallow decision about HOW you want your life to be shit still means it's shit.

    All you're doing is making a "well technically..." argument. Not a meaningful one. All of your posts boil down "Well TECHNICALLY a choice is being made" but nothing beyond that. You never address the fact that these people have zero capacity to improve their lives even if they wanted to, which is the entire crux of UBI argument. It's utterly meaningless and contributes nothing to the discussion to argue a dumb technicality.
    "Nazis are like cats. If they like you, it's probably because you're feeding them." -John Oliver
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    I don't care if he committed tax fraud. Scoring political victories and crushing the aspirations of your political opponents is more important than adhering to moral principles.
    Knadra finally just admitting Trumpkins care more about political victories than morals.

  19. #759
    Hobson's Choice is defined above to realize the illusion of choice.
    Why work a shitty job that pays for nothing in the basics, when I can stake out the dumpsters behind the fast food joints for at the very least a full stomach?

  20. #760
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    The point is that the choices that actually matter cant be made. Just because some dumb shallow decision about HOW you want your life to be shit still means it's shit.
    And I have never once denied that.

    All you're doing is making a "well technically..." argument. Not a meaningful one. All of your posts boil down "Well TECHNICALLY a choice is being made" but nothing beyond that. You never address the fact that these people have zero capacity to improve their lives even if they wanted to, which is the entire crux of UBI argument. It's utterly meaningless and contributes nothing to the discussion to argue a dumb technicality.
    First, that's not true.

    The "choice" issue is just the one folks seem to be fixated on. I've already stated that UBI, universal healthcare, increasing minimum wage, etc... should all be implemented to fix this problem so that the choices are actually meaningful.

    Second, I agree with you that it's meaningless and contributes nothing to the discussion. I'm simply defending myself here.

    Would it help, or change ANYTHING in this discussion if I just threw my hands up in the air and said "sure, fine, whatever there is no choice...you're right?"

    Because if it gets people to STFU about it and move on the actual issue being discussed in the thread here, I'd be happy to.

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