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  1. #761
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    First, that's not true.
    Actually it is true and it has been proven to you time and time again.

    All you are doing at this point is going "nope your wrong I'm right lalalala". You do realize you are the only one in this thread doing this shit right? When a "million" people are telling you that you are wrong.. guess what you are fucken wrong.

    A choice between two evils isn't a choice, Its bullshit because you have no meaningful way to improve anything.
    Check me out....Im └(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┐└(-.-)┐ Dancing, Im └(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┐└(-.-)┐ Dancing.
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  2. #762
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    Actually it is true and it has been proven to you time and time again.

    All you are doing at this point is going "nope your wrong I'm right lalalala". You do realize you are the only one in this thread doing this shit right? When a "million" people are telling you that you are wrong.. guess what you are fucken wrong.

    A choice between two evils isn't a choice, Its bullshit because you have no meaningful way to improve anything.
    Sure fine whatever. You're right I'm wrong.

    Can we move on now?

  3. #763
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    And I have never once denied that.



    First, that's not true.

    The "choice" issue is just the one folks seem to be fixated on. I've already stated that UBI, universal healthcare, increasing minimum wage, etc... should all be implemented to fix this problem so that the choices are actually meaningful.

    Second, I agree with you that it's meaningless and contributes nothing to the discussion. I'm simply defending myself here.

    Would it help, or change ANYTHING in this discussion if I just threw my hands up in the air and said "sure, fine, whatever there is no choice...you're right?"

    Because if it gets people to STFU about it and move on the actual issue being discussed in the thread here, I'd be happy to.
    you forgot to tell us who will sponsor all those goodies .

    because for sure it wont be sponsored by leeches who cba to work and pay 0 taxes.

  4. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    you forgot to tell us who will sponsor all those goodies .

    because for sure it wont be sponsored by leeches who cba to work and pay 0 taxes.
    Oh, you mean like Donald Trump? I heard he hasn't paid taxes for over a decade.

  5. #765
    Choice is an unproven concept. Please go back to the start of the discussion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Sure fine whatever. You're right I'm wrong.

    Can we move on now?
    You have another card up your sleeve you haven't used. You're arguing shitty choice vs shitty choice which as previously stated isn't a meaningful decision. However the decision to not choose in a shitty situation is most certainly meaningful.

  6. #766
    Tom Morello: “America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you’ve lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn’t belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don’t care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve.”

    And to use one of my favorite quotes used in a tv show:
    Freedom to starve is no freedom.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'm fine with a mafia. Of course, the mafia families often worked with independent third parties in order to maintain relations.

  7. #767
    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    Tom Morello: “America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you’ve lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn’t belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don’t care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve.”

    And to use one of my favorite quotes used in a tv show:
    Freedom to starve is no freedom.
    i think you are mistaken about what that freedom was originally supposed to be.

    for first migrants it meant freedom from their opressive overlords who often had control over their life and death - for those people it was true freedom

    but freedom comes with cost - that cost is that life of free person is always very hard.

    historicaly many people indeed couldnt cope with such freedom and harsheness that came with that and deliberately put themslefs into slavery - as life of free person was to hard for them .

    from what many people here write its quite obvious that they to wouldnt mind putting themselves into slaves position if it came with roof over their head and 3 meals a day (aka UBI)
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2021-06-09 at 11:30 AM.

  8. #768
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post

    from what many people here write its quite obvious that they to wouldnt mind putting themselves into slaves position if it came with roof over their head and 3 meals a day .
    Not at all. It's just a simple recognition that serfdom to a landlord is not better. The definition of freedom doesn't end at the government. Its freedom from dominion.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #769
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    i think you are mistaken about what that freedom was originally supposed to be. .
    Now claim you know from experience what this means in the US.

  10. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Now claim you know from experience what this means in the US.
    exackly the same what it means in every part of world.

    " free "life in general is harsh , unfair and cruel and price that many pay is long hours in work

    its up to every person to make it better for themselves .

    wouldnt i prefer to not do anything , not work and still live on level i live on atm ? sure i would . but life doesnt work like this.

  11. #771
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    exackly the same what it means in every part of world.
    Wrong.
    Which reveals yet again that lack of experience. Your tiny world has never reflected the world, certainly not the US.

  12. #772
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    i think you are mistaken about what that freedom was originally supposed to be.

    for first migrants it meant freedom from their opressive overlords who often had control over their life and death - for those people it was true freedom

    but freedom comes with cost - that cost is that life of free person is always very hard.

    historicaly many people indeed couldnt cope with such freedom and harsheness that came with that and deliberately put themslefs into slavery - as life of free person was to hard for them .

    from what many people here write its quite obvious that they to wouldnt mind putting themselves into slaves position if it came with roof over their head and 3 meals a day (aka UBI)
    You do realise we are no longer in the 15th century, but the 21st? Things have changed quite a bit. There are no new continents to flee to for cheap/free land to make your own if you don't mind driving the locals off. Technology, social hirachies and such also changed.

    And the UBI is there to give you the true freedom to choose which way to go in live. There are no strings attached so you can't compare it to slavery.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'm fine with a mafia. Of course, the mafia families often worked with independent third parties in order to maintain relations.

  13. #773
    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    You do realise we are no longer in the 15th century, but the 21st? Things have changed quite a bit. There are no new continents to flee to for cheap/free land to make your own if you don't mind driving the locals off. Technology, social hirachies and such also changed.

    And the UBI is there to give you the true freedom to choose which way to go in live. There are no strings attached so you can't compare it to slavery.
    there are always strings attached. same like "there are no free meals" .

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Wrong.
    Which reveals yet again that lack of experience. Your tiny world has never reflected the world, certainly not the US.
    what doesnt reflect in US ?

    statistics for US are aviable on internet - and they are proving the same as in every other country - that better educated people on average make much more then worse educated ones - and that level of education is direcly correlated to ones wealth on statistical levels .

    are there any extrememus there ? im sure there are. but like in every part of world statisticaly if you learn well and become for example MD / engineer you will make much more money then people who flip burgers.

    and like in most of parts of civilised world - basic level of education aka up to highschool is completly free .

    the fact that you dont have also free public Universities funded by taxes is your own US choice.

    which can be concluded to 1 thing - if people are lazy when they are young and dont learn in school they end up with jobs that pay them bad - if they want to change it as adoults they have to invest into education or start their own companies. there is no other easy solution to get out of poverty but hard work - sometimes that work comes in form of lots of learning.

    any sane person understands it.
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2021-06-09 at 12:45 PM.

  14. #774
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    there are always strings attached. same like "there are no free meals" .
    Then do enlighten me on the strings attached to UBI.
    What are they? Except living in a country dispencing one?
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'm fine with a mafia. Of course, the mafia families often worked with independent third parties in order to maintain relations.

  15. #775
    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    Then do enlighten me on the strings attached to UBI.
    What are they? Except living in a country dispencing one?
    check what is happening already atm in China - with their "behave like good citizens" programs

    thats the string attached that will come with UBI - it will be people deliberately giving up their freedom and puting themselves into positions of slaves .

    many people without doubt will do that happily - because they lead boring slave type life already atm . just like hundreds of years ago many people chosen themselves to be put into slavery .

  16. #776
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    i think you are mistaken about what that freedom was originally supposed to be.

    for first migrants it meant freedom from their opressive overlords who often had control over their life and death - for those people it was true freedom

    but freedom comes with cost - that cost is that life of free person is always very hard.

    historicaly many people indeed couldnt cope with such freedom and harsheness that came with that and deliberately put themslefs into slavery - as life of free person was to hard for them .
    Not only is that not historically how slavery has worked, you're acting as an apologist for the institution of slavery, here.

    from what many people here write its quite obvious that they to wouldnt mind putting themselves into slaves position if it came with roof over their head and 3 meals a day (aka UBI)
    You realize being guaranteed a comfortable living baseline without requiring labor in exchange is the exact antithesis of slavery, right?

    The reason we support a UBI is because we don't wish people to effectively enslave themselves just for those basics.

    You can't possibly come in here defending and supporting enslavement systemically, and project that support onto those you disagree with.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    check what is happening already atm in China - with their "behave like good citizens" programs

    thats the string attached that will come with UBI - it will be people deliberately giving up their freedom and puting themselves into positions of slaves .
    China doesn't have a UBI.

    You're fearmongering about complete fucking nonsense.


  17. #777
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    statistics for US are aviable on internet
    This is the idiocy prattled by every person that refuses to learn that experience leads to the best understanding of living anywhere.

    "well, I read it on the internet..."
    Sure, whatever...you just stay in the country of yours...enjoy your socialist protections, free healthcare and education..and keep imagining that you can know different experiences by reading about them.

  18. #778
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Not only is that not historically how slavery has worked, you're acting as an apologist for the institution of slavery, here.
    what exackly is ? that a lot of people willingly accepted status of slaves in exchange for others taking care of their needs/protection ? it was pretty common in ancient times.

    if you want to deny it then you need to learn more history .

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    This is the idiocy prattled by every person that refuses to learn that experience leads to the best understanding of living anywhere.

    "well, I read it on the internet..."
    Sure, whatever...you just stay in the country of yours...enjoy your socialist protections, free healthcare and education..and keep imagining that you can know different experiences by reading about them.
    so you are gonna now deny statistical data because it doesnt agree with your opinion ? ok sure but this makes discussion with you completly pointless

  19. #779
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    check what is happening already atm in China - with their "behave like good citizens" programs

    thats the string attached that will come with UBI - it will be people deliberately giving up their freedom and puting themselves into positions of slaves .

    many people without doubt will do that happily - because they lead boring slave type life already atm . just like hundreds of years ago many people chosen themselves to be put into slavery .
    So in order to dispute UBI you bring up a non-UBI as a bad example?
    The UBI we are talking about is getting a certain amount of money so that you do not have to run to several different goverment agencies for support, to give you freedom. The chinese SCS is ment as a tool to control their citizens, to punish them for undesireable behaviour and reward them for 'good'.
    The set-up AND intend behind the two things is diametrically opposed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'm fine with a mafia. Of course, the mafia families often worked with independent third parties in order to maintain relations.

  20. #780
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    what exackly is ? that a lot of people willingly accepted status of slaves in exchange for others taking care of their needs/protection ? it was pretty common in ancient times.

    if you want to deny it then you need to learn more history.
    You're confusing debt slavery with some kind of "enslave me daddy" subservience.

    It's gross and ahistorical.


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