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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    One's own family are not outsiders. If you consider your own family outsiders I can only feel bad and sad for you. Also as you stated earlier he already had more money than they gave him before he started Amazon and there'a a high chance he was also providing to his family before the company experienced economical difficulties. If helping one's own son sounds like nothing to you, consider this returning a favour
    this is the general problem of whole western/norther world - the loss of familly connections and basicly treating your own family kinda like enemy

    best example ? all the nonsense of "if you are grown up you should imidiately move out - the sooner the better " - instead saving a lot of money to buy their own apartments much faster people very often move out too soon and then are forced to rent / spend much money on utility etc etc

    family was always one of most important factor in people prospering well - sadly due to mass media poor people make very poor choices of moving out because they want to blindly copy their more wealthy friends and fell into trap of renting instead owning property .

    its huge problem imo as really a lot of them dont really need to move out that fast .

    east is completly different in this regard and its starting to show more and more effects.

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    Before he started Amazon he worked in several other companies as an employee and earnt these money. He didn't miraculously find them on the roadside on his way to start Amazon. Earnt money are not privilege.

    One's own family are not outsiders. If you consider your own family outsiders I can only feel bad and sad for you. Also as you stated earlier he already had more money than they gave him before he started Amazon and there'a a high chance he was also providing to his family before the company experienced economical difficulties. If helping one's own son sounds like nothing to you, consider this returning a favour
    Having parents that get you an education worth tens of thousands is quite the privilege. Princeton is not a cheap university.
    And don't forget that they gave him a loan of $245,573 when his company was about to go bankrupt. How many families can do that?
    So no, he did not earn it as you said 'every single dollar he has now is a result of the enormous initial effort he put in'.
    He got quite a lot of help without he would not be were he is now.

    I do not decry his family helping him. But it debunks the myth of him being a self-made billionaire or that everybody can do it if he/she tries hard enough or that the secret to success is hard work. Family ties and money are what got him where he is now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'm fine with a mafia. Of course, the mafia families often worked with independent third parties in order to maintain relations.

  3. #483
    Banned Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    Princeton is not a cheap university.
    So true, good thing he was a national merit scholar, that helped a lot

    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    Having parents that get you an education
    ...is not a privilege. It's basic parents' responsibility to bring their child up properly and provide it with best education they could. Having responsible parents is not a privilege, it's normal thing. Of course not everyone could reach the ivy league, but as you could snarkily note, most of rich people's wealth is work of more than one generation

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    ...is not a privilege.
    Unless it's something that's available to everyone by default, it's a privilege. Y'all really seem to have problems with the meaning of words.

    Having responsible parents is not a privilege, it's normal thing.
    Having responsible parents with the means and time to socially advance you to ultra-rich status is not the norm, sweaty.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    And I never said so either
    But you implied that because of his hard work, he deserved every dollar he earned, when in reality it wasn't JUST him working hard it was him and a veritable army of other folks who were earning FAR FAAAAR less than him, while working just as hard, if not harder, than he was.

    So, what about everyone else within Amazon that also works just as hard as him? Where's their billion dollars?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    Before he started Amazon he worked in several other companies as an employee and earnt these money. He didn't miraculously find them on the roadside on his way to start Amazon. Earnt money are not privilege.
    The money you earned is not privilege no, but the luxury of being able to save far more of the money you earn because you come from a wealthy, or relatively well off family who helps pay for things so you CAN save....that IS privilege.

    I have a co-worker who brags he was able to buy his first house, in Southern California, at 25. He leaves out the part that the only reason he had enough money to do that was because he lived at one of his parents rental properties rent and utility free, only having to pay for his own food. Even then only when his parents weren't there, which was not that often. THAT'S privilege.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    But you implied that because of his hard work, he deserved every dollar he earned, when in reality it wasn't JUST him working hard it was him and a veritable army of other folks who were earning FAR FAAAAR less than him, while working just as hard, if not harder, than he was.

    So, what about everyone else within Amazon that also works just as hard as him? Where's their billion dollars?
    where are their rest rooms, it's so absurd this conversation is going on when that meme about the productivity cages are almost real over at Amazon.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    ...is not a privilege. It's basic parents' responsibility to bring their child up properly and provide it with best education they could. Having responsible parents is not a privilege, it's normal thing.
    Having parents that can pay for that kind of education is a privilege though. Being able to pick and choose basically whatever university will accept you, regardless of cost, is a huge privilege.

    Of course not everyone could reach the ivy league, but as you could snarkily note, most of rich people's wealth is work of more than one generation
    And coming from a family like that IS privilege. Doesn't mean it's unearned, or undeserved, but it IS privilege.

  8. #488
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    The money you earned is not privilege no, but the luxury of being able to save far more of the money you earn because you come from a wealthy, or relatively well off family who helps pay for things so you CAN save....that IS privilege.

    I have a co-worker who brags he was able to buy his first house, in Southern California, at 25. He leaves out the part that the only reason he had enough money to do that was because he lived at one of his parents rental properties rent and utility free, only having to pay for his own food. Even then only when his parents weren't there, which was not that often. THAT'S privilege.
    There's also the weird re-definition of what "earned" means.

    Having a slip of paper in your safety deposit box while you sit on your couch playing X-box and making hundreds of thousands of dollars because of that slip, they consider that "earning" that money.

    But a minimum-wage worker flipping burgers who wants $15 instead of $7.25/hour, that has to be stopped, because they haven't "earned" that wage bump.

    Also, the concept of "privilege" is not really that complicated. It speaks to any benefit you enjoyed that not everyone could rely upon. Everyone has some form of "privilege". It isn't a scoring system, it's about recognizing the advantages you lucked into. The quadraplegic black guy who grew up with a single mom in a bad neighbourhood enjoyed the privilege of being cisgender and straight, and not facing the potential social backlash for being LGBT in some way or another. That doesn't mean he's automatically "less privileged" than a gay person; that isn't how this concept works. Because, again, it's not a scoring system. Just the recognition of various challenges you did not have to face, which others may have had to struggle to overcome.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    And coming from a family like that IS privilege. Doesn't mean it's unearned, or undeserved, but it IS privilege.
    Just to underscore;

    The idea of "privilege" is not to condemn those who enjoyed privilege, or benefited from it. It's just to ask you to recognize that benefit, rather than condemning others for failing to leap a hurdle that you've literally never had to jump over.


  9. #489
    OH LOOK MORE "HANDOUTS"

    oh gee what a shock, taxpayers/workers paying for unemployment when its supposed to be paid for by companies. Business won't even be required to pay additional taxes like they normally do to beef back up the funds.

    $$ that was supposed to go to help workers and people.


    States tap federal aid to shore up empty unemployment funds
    Businesses could be spared billions of dollars of higher taxes in coming years as a result of federal coronavirus funds flowing to the states

    https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wire...funds-77942989

    Businesses could be spared billions of dollars of higher taxes in coming years
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  10. #490
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agm114r View Post
    Of course, the 'worker-owned means of production' sounds great, but history shows that almost all of the time it ends up worse and more corrupted than the present situation. The concept never makes it through reality, for whatever reason.
    It's never been tried, so I really don't know what you're talking about.

    If you mean Stalinist communism or the other forms that derived from it, that's closer to capitalism than it is to what I'm talking about.


  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by agm114r View Post
    Usually, 'worker-owned means of production' is usually Marxism
    It isn't.

    Moreover, Stalinism is not Marxism regardless of how bad your knowledge of history and political science is. Joseph McCarthy died in 1957 and I'll kindly ask you to leave his nonsense in the ground with him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  12. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by agm114r View Post
    That's all well and good, but if your point is that 'Marxism works if not corrupted'
    No, my point is that what Endus was describing wasn't Marxism and that you have a warped conception of it regardless.

    McCarthy is pretty much ignored in my studies of history, too.
    And you're repeating his errors as a result.

    Love that for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  13. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by agm114r View Post
    Yeah, I don't have the years it would explain it to you in terms you would understand, so I'll skip it. Have a nice life. You are welcome to think whatever it is, just don't be surprised when it doesn't work out like you think it will.
    That's a very verbose way of saying you don't have an argument, lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  14. #494
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agm114r View Post
    Usually, 'worker-owned means of production' is usually Marxism, so, yes that's what I was talking about.
    Marx's utopia was an abolishment of ownership, not a market-based system of worker collectives.

    Socialist theory neither started with Marx, nor did Marx sum it up. He was just one influential writer with a particular outlook, who's more important for his critiques of capitalism than his own economic theory. If you hear something socialist, and you think to yourself "sounds like Marxism", you don't have even the most rudimentary understanding of socialist theory to understand the conversation .

    You should be looking for names like Adam Smith, John Stuart Mill, Pierre-joseph Proudhon, and more broadly, John Rawls, if you're trying to get a grasp on market socialist theory.
    Last edited by Endus; 2021-05-30 at 07:26 AM.


  15. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by agm114r View Post
    That's all well and good, but if your point is that 'Marxism works if not corrupted', that's all well and good, but, show me the working in-real-life, uncorrupted example first. If that wasn't your point, let me know what it was, or let it go.

    McCarthy is pretty much ignored in my studies of history, too. As he should be. I have far more knowledge of history than most on this forum show.
    The fact that you state underlined at all makes me doubt it. You might have read some popular history books about subjects that interest you. Maybe you've even read some generally seen more academic tomes like Decline and Fall of Roman Empire.
    However, the fact that you go "I know more than you" shows you know rather little, and probably never have looked at primary sources or really started digging in something.

    I also doubt you've read that much Marx. A thing I haven't either, even if I'm currently reading Das Kapital at work (audiobook). Nor any other Socialist thinker before or after Marx.
    - Lars

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Marx's utopia was an abolishment of ownership, not a market-based system of worker collectives.

    Socialist theory neither started with Marx, nor did Marx sum it up. He was just one influential writer with a particular outlook, who's more important for his critiques of capitalism than his own economic theory. If you hear something socialist, and you think to yourself "sounds like Marxism", you don't have even the most rudimentary understanding of socialist theory to understand the conversation .

    You should be looking for names like Adam Smith, John Stuart Mill, Pierre-joseph Proudhon, and more broadly, John Rawls, if you're trying to get a grasp on market socialist theory.
    Marx is literaly the worst possible person to look after as look model as if it wasnt for Engels which money Marx leeched he wouldnt have time to write his nonsenses because he would have to work .

    he was not influential writer - he was just a leech which works communits used as means to an end to steal from wealthy only to not give it to poor.

    i honestly hope people here who love communistic/socialistic ideas never read Mein Kampf becuase they will honestly start claims that some of the idiocies written there are overall good ideas in theory .

  17. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    Marx is literaly the worst possible person to look after as look model as if it wasnt for Engels which money Marx leeched he wouldnt have time to write his nonsenses because he would have to work .

    he was not influential writer - he was just a leech which works communits used as means to an end to steal from wealthy only to not give it to poor.

    i honestly hope people here who love communistic/socialistic ideas never read Mein Kampf becuase they will honestly start claims that some of the idiocies written there are overall good ideas in theory .
    Go ask any Economist, Sociologist, Anthropologist, or Historian about him being an influential writer.
    Are lots of his conclutions questionable? Is Historical Materialism flawed once you get into the details? Is his solutions to the Capitalist Economy half-baked and half-assed?
    Yes to all of that. Is his critiques of stuff and use of models good tools that's been used by almost everyone in the fields I mentioned in one way or another since his writings?
    Also yes.

    You also seem to miss the fact that for most of his life Marx was a poor journalist jumping from place to place and country to country dodging censorship. Hillariously enough Engels was one of the wealthy, and the way his family made money is why he became against industrial capitalism as it looked during his life.

    You also missed the point of Endus' post. As he wasn't posting a "Marx had a model of society we should aspire to get". He was posting "Marx critique of the Capitalistic Industrial Model of society" was very correct and ground breaking. Meanwhile you just saw "AAAAAAH HE IS FOR MARX!!"
    - Lars

  18. #498
    The Unstoppable Force Belize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    Protestant ethics, if you'd like.
    You mean adultery, entitlement, and begging others to give 10% of their salary in return for scaring them or confirming their hateful world views?

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Marx's utopia was an abolishment of ownership, not a market-based system of worker collectives.

    Socialist theory neither started with Marx, nor did Marx sum it up. He was just one influential writer with a particular outlook, who's more important for his critiques of capitalism than his own economic theory. If you hear something socialist, and you think to yourself "sounds like Marxism", you don't have even the most rudimentary understanding of socialist theory to understand the conversation .

    You should be looking for names like Adam Smith, John Stuart Mill, Pierre-joseph Proudhon, and more broadly, John Rawls, if you're trying to get a grasp on market socialist theory.
    John stuart mill is a rather odd choice there. Wasn't his entire outlook that unless someone was placing themselves in mortal danger or someone else you shouldn't interfer with them?

  20. #500
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    John stuart mill is a rather odd choice there. Wasn't his entire outlook that unless someone was placing themselves in mortal danger or someone else you shouldn't interfer with them?
    Oversimplified, but yes.

    Still self-identified as a socialist and wrote inceasingly on the subject in later editions of Principles.

    If you thought socialism was antithetical to liberty, you don't understand the first thing about socialist theory; it's more concerned with individual liberties than capitalist theory is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    he was not influential writer -
    Imagine being this completely out of touch with the academic thinking behind history, economics, and philosophy, and still presuming your opinion holds value.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx
    "Marx has been described as one of the most influential figures in human history and his work has been both lauded and criticised.[17] His work in economics laid the basis for some current theories about labour and its relation to capital.[18][19][20] Many intellectuals, labour unions, artists and political parties worldwide have been influenced by Marx's work, with many modifying or adapting his ideas. Marx is typically cited as one of the principal architects of modern social science."

    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/k/karl-marx.asp
    "He was, without question, one of the most important and revolutionary thinkers of his time."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/histori...arx_karl.shtml
    "A hugely influential revolutionary thinker and philosopher"

    Hell, just the fact that we're still talking about him pretty much explains it.


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