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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by slime View Post
    Because companies will always remain successful when alienating 85% of your paying player-base.
    And yet, here we are. 16 years with the system of rewarding effort and "alienating" the lazy and the game is still running strong. Meanwhile the games that cater exclusively to these 85% like SWTOR are basically dead, with just a bit of single-player story content now and then to keep people playing and buying from their cash shop.

    The thing is, WoW did not change. It is doing what it always has. High Content gives high gear. That was always the case and no one had a problem with it.

    Now suddenly we have this surge of people demanding to be given everything without having to put in effort for it. This wave of sheer lazyness and entitlement is a new thing and it is a very worrying development. We can only hope these people will never be asked for their opinions on any important matter.

  2. #182
    I don't know that people necessarily want to diminish the top players' experiences, but they make up such a small part of the community that it can be argued whether they should be catered to.
    Corporate wishes everyone a happy new year

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    I don't know that people necessarily want to diminish the top players' experiences, but they make up such a small part of the community that it can be argued whether they should be catered to.
    That is just the thing. They are not catered to. Being a casual player is easier this expansion then it was ever before while high-level players need to run tons of stuff every week to hopefully get a small upgrade in the Vault.

    The entire problem is made up from the get go, by people who feel the game owes them free gear because they are too lazy to do the things that give them gear. Their experience isn't diminished in any way, they just aren't getting things without putting the work in like everybody else and that they cannot accept.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by kukkamies View Post
    PVP gear was the true catch up in TBC. I was maybe 12yo when finally leveled to max, in last 4 months of TBC. Just did bgs for a week or so and I was in full epics comparable to T5 is it? Or T4?
    Then joined a pug for kara and we demolished it. Can barely remember anything about that.
    They'd be about T5, but with a lot more stamina and less of other stats, so about T4.5 in terms of raiding utility, if I'm remembering right. That stuff was excellent for levelling in Wrath if you didn't have T5 or better, too - all that Stam made over-pulling when questing much less of a problem.

    It took more like several weeks to get a full set unless you were completely no-lifing it, though.

  5. #185
    The Lightbringer Arganis's Avatar
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    Ultra competitive players suck the fun out of stuff. Just like they do in raids.

    They’re the loudest people and all they care about is crunching numbers and maximizing results. Like fuckin’ robots. I got news: robotic content is not fun. It’s soulless.

    WoW should re-evaluate what it defines as “fun” because now they’re full of “systems” designed around people who think of everything in a dry mechanical way. To keep total dweebs playing like crack addicts, while dumbing everything down for everyone else.
    Facilis Descensus Averno

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    That is just the thing. They are not catered to. Being a casual player is easier this expansion then it was ever before while high-level players need to run tons of stuff every week to hopefully get a small upgrade in the Vault.

    The entire problem is made up from the get go, by people who feel the game owes them free gear because they are too lazy to do the things that give them gear. Their experience isn't diminished in any way, they just aren't getting things without putting the work in like everybody else and that they cannot accept.
    Hardcore players aren't catered to?

    Doesnt every expansion and major patch come with a new raid with tier sets that at the mythic level look far more complex?

    Didn't LFR raiders in WoD have to settle for literal scraps in terms of looking decent, whereas these days they just settle for awful recolours?

    Don't hardcore raiders get access to mounts obtained exclusively through achievements?

    I don't know what world you're living in where hardcore raiders arent rewarded for their effort.

    They may have to do more stuff to get gear but that's part of the gig of being a hardcore player, no? Not to mention that the gear they do get not only looks better, has more prestige but also has better stats and a higher ilevel.

    Casual players aren't putting in less effort for the same stuff as hardcore players, they're putting in less effort for worse stuff.

    I don't know where people are getting this "entitlement" from the casual playerbase from. They want the same thing as hardcore players; to progress their characters and look rad as hell.

    God forbid we let them, they should just be limited to groveling at the feet of the mythic raiders inspecting them and drooling all over their keyboards thankful to be in the pressence of Chad Thundercock because THATS fun in a videogame.
    Last edited by LarryFromHumanResources; 2021-05-18 at 12:48 PM.
    Corporate wishes everyone a happy new year

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    PvP gear wasn't good catch up gear because you didn't get enough hit chance to hitcap against raid bosses.
    That's why it's 'catch up' gear. It gets you to the point where you can start gearing properly in progression. Also, you could get reasonably close as melee by gemming just for hit. Not ideal, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kukkamies View Post
    I see. Should still be a lot better than going for heroics or T4 for catch up. Normals are just useless very quick. Badge gear I don't remember at all how good it was or if it was any good.
    The initial stuff was strange and weird and seldom worth it. Later badge gear was good, Isle of QD stuff was amazing (but not as good as what was actually inside Sunwell).

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    Hardcore players aren't catered to?

    Doesnt every expansion and major patch come with a new raid with tier sets that at the mythic level look far more complex?

    Didn't LFR raiders in WoD have to settle for literal scraps in terms of looking decent, whereas these days they just settle for awful recolours?

    Don't hardcore raiders get access to mounts obtained exclusively through achievements?

    I don't know what world you're living in where hardcore raiders arent rewarded for their effort.
    Rewarding effort is not the same as being catered to and your definition of "Hardcore players" is veeeery brought. I would not call myself hardcore by any means with only a few hours of playing in the evening. Still I am comfortably able to get my Curve and my Keymaster achievment. Hardcore starts when you want to raid Mythic for real and get your Cutting Edge. Everything else is doable for everyone that puts the effort in.

    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    I don't know where people are getting this "entitlement" from the casual playerbase from. They want the same thing as hardcore players; to progress their characters and look rad as hell.
    You are right. They want the same things. The problem is they don't want to put in the same effort, they want to be given the rewards and not earn them like the "hardcore" people do. They feel they should be getting the same stuff despite not doing the same work (as you yourself admit) and that, my friend, is entitlement in it's purest form.

    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    God forbid we let them, they should just be limited to groveling at the feet of the mythic raiders inspecting them and drooling all over their keyboards thankful to be in the pressence of Chad Thundercock because THATS fun in a videogame.
    Again, most things in the game are easily achievable without being a super high-end Mythic raider. Curve and KSM are doable without becoming hardcore. It just takes effort.

    I am not a Mythic Raider myself and I do not own any of the Mythic Transmogs despite being addicted to transmoging, do you see me opening threads about the Mythic raiders diminishing my experience? No. Because I do not feel entitled to things I did not earn.

    I do not have the time and frankly the patience to wipe 200 times on a Mythic boss so I am not doing Mythic and thus I do not expect to be given Mythic rewards. It's really that simple.

    People are putting dozens of hours into earning these things and that is reflected in the quality of the loot. Either join them and earn it yourself or don't, but stop pretending like their achievments are somehow diminshing your experience. You are simply jealous, nothing more.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by slime View Post
    Because companies will always remain successful when alienating 85% of your paying player-base.

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    Thank God we have guys like this making our decisions.
    16 years after this supposedly started and WoW Shadowlands still had some 10 mil people playing at launch. So that's blatantly false and pulled out of your ass.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    I am not a Mythic Raider myself and I do not own any of the Mythic Transmogs despite being addicted to transmoging, do you see me opening threads about the Mythic raiders diminishing my experience? No. Because I do not feel entitled to things I did not earn.

    I do not have the time and frankly the patience to wipe 200 times on a Mythic boss so I am not doing Mythic and thus I do not expect to be given Mythic rewards. It's really that simple.

    People are putting dozens of hours into earning these things and that is reflected in the quality of the loot. Either join them and earn it yourself or don't, but stop pretending like their achievments are somehow diminshing your experience. You are simply jealous, nothing more.
    Your argument looked good until you switched to "they put time in", because at that point you're linking getting stuff with something that mythic raiders quite possibly don't spend any more of than someone who just grinds dailies, WQs, and low-end 5-mans.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    No. Letting players progress for sake of progressing without that progression being linked to effort or atleast beating some new or harder content do not make players have fun or play more. Its complete myth. Progression has to be tied to new or harder gameplay experience otherwise its meaningless progression and players will stop care aka quit playing.
    You can act all puritanical and self righteous all you want, but when players find a brick wall in their progression, a minority will try to Git Gud™ - and a majority will just quietly leave. Which in turn represents less money, i.e. less budget for the toys of the hardcore crowd. If you have a game that is bleeding players left and right, what do you think the next budget will look like? Especially when the game itself is pretty old.

    Hint: don't expect anything the scale of Legion. That was a one time fluke that will not be seen again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    16 years after this supposedly started and WoW Shadowlands still had some 10 mil people playing at launch. So that's blatantly false and pulled out of your ass.
    Source please.
    Current state of WoW lore:
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Who'd have known that the Domination guy whose aesthetics are 80% chains wasn't into freedom. Nobody could have seen this coming.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    And those people have the exact same opportunity that the so-called competitive people have. If you want to progress your character after ilvl 200 then the way is PvP, Raid or Mythic Plus.
    Not using this opportunity is a CHOICE and while you are free to make that call, it ridiculous to then expect the game to bend over backwards and give you the gear to progress your character anyway.

    Take responsibility for your own decisions. If you can't be arsed to do the content the game offers then don't complain that you aren't getting the rewards that come with doing this content. What even is this attitude: "I dun wanna work, but I demand to be paid."

    If this is the mindset of the so-called non-competitive crowd then we will be much better off with them unsubbing. I don't expect it being many anyway.
    Good thing there are alternative MMORPGs that allow casuals to progress their gear up to the second best iLvl in the game from doing LFG and LFR and getting a weekly currency. You know like WoW used to in the past.
    What's sad about that is that casuals are leaving in droves to those other games and even if Blizzard decide to fix their shit there's no guarantee that those players will return.
    Ultimately it hurts the game tremendously by not offering long term gear progression to the casual playerbase who don't do mythic dungeons, normal/heroic/mythic raids and ranked PvP.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Good thing there are alternative MMORPGs that allow casuals to progress their gear up to the second best iLvl in the game from doing LFG and LFR and getting a weekly currency. You know like WoW used to in the past.
    What's sad about that is that casuals are leaving in droves to those other games and even if Blizzard decide to fix their shit there's no guarantee that those players will return.
    Ultimately it hurts the game tremendously by not offering long term gear progression to the casual playerbase who don't do mythic dungeons, normal/heroic/mythic raids and ranked PvP.
    You and others keep claiming this but no proof ever gets listed

  14. #194
    The Lightbringer Arganis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    16 years after this supposedly started and WoW Shadowlands still had some 10 mil people playing at launch. So that's blatantly false and pulled out of your ass.
    It’s funny because people constantly equate mass consumption with quality when quality is clearly far from the primary factor.

    WoW does a really a good job of keeping people playing, that doesn’t mean the game is at its best.
    Facilis Descensus Averno

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    You are right. They want the same things. The problem is they don't want to put in the same effort, they want to be given the rewards and not earn them like the "hardcore" people do. They feel they should be getting the same stuff despite not doing the same work (as you yourself admit) and that, my friend, is entitlement in it's purest form.
    This is really the only thing I'm going to respond to because the rest of your post was an elaborate "I put fairly few hours into WoW and yet I'm still able to do X, Y and Z that you consider hardcore." which is fine, good for you.

    No, if you think I'm right then you're missing the point. Because I'm not saying that casuals want what mythic or heroic raiders have, that was never my argument and I haven't seen a single casual on this forum that I've frequented for 7 years demand heroic and mythic statted items and appearances without wanting to put in the effort.

    Casual players want the same thing out of WoW as hardcore players, that is to say meaningful character progression and to look rad, that's very different than "wanting what hardcore players have."

    If you cannot see that then we've got nothing more to talk about.

    Effort should always be rewarded with cool stuff, but under no circumstances should casual players have to settle for ugly shit or no way to increase their ilvls, period.
    Last edited by LarryFromHumanResources; 2021-05-18 at 07:08 PM.
    Corporate wishes everyone a happy new year

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    It isn't, and as a matter of fact, the experience of competitive players is NEVER tarnished by whatever the casual crowd is doing. So the question doesn't really go both ways, nice attempt though.
    That's a really asinine take on the situation in reverse. It might not be tarnished by what the casual crowd is DOING, but it is tarnished repeatedly by Blizzard attempting to put in features that supposedly benefit the casual crowd.

    Legion artifacts, legendary items, and the -forged system were all great examples of this.

    Why did Blizzard implement all three of those systems the way they did? In their literal own words, they wanted to give an incentive for a higher geared mythic player to raid with a lower tier group on a lower difficulty. It was incredibly flawed logic that made zero sense to anybody in the competitive crowd, and it actually had the opposite effect. I, a mythic raider, would not turn my nose up at my more casual friends if they wanted to invite me to a normal mode fun raid. I decline on the basis that I am not going to get any rewards out of it. Would I go to a PUG normal raid with people I didn't know on my main character? No, but this system didn't encourage that behavior either. All it did was encourage mythic raiders to quickly farm every other difficulty of raid every single week which then made it even less likely that I would need or want to raid any more than I already had to.

    Not only this, but the benefit to a casual audience was negligible anyway. Somebody who only does world quests isn't going to stick around and farm more world quests for better gear. They can already complete all of the world quests. You don't need mythic level gear to finish dailies or normal mode raids. Was it exciting to get a high level drop? Yes, but only to the same degree that opening a loot box and getting a shiny mythic item is.

    So Blizzard's attempt to implement a system that was supposed to allow casual players to progress past their normal barriers and give an incentive for mythic raiders to want to raid lower difficulties on their mains actually ended up doing basically nothing for casual players while simultaneously causing massive burn out from the hardcore raiders who felt the need to farm constantly for forged gear and AP.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post

    Source please.
    1. Shadowlands being the fastest selling WoW expac ever

    2. Blizzard reporting the highest activity of the decade

    If anything I should've said 12 mil but I'm ok with 10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    It’s funny because people constantly equate mass consumption with quality when quality is clearly far from the primary factor.

    WoW does a really a good job of keeping people playing, that doesn’t mean the game is at its best.
    There's no such thing as an objective metric called 'quality' for a subjective art. Numbers is the only objective metric you have.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    16 years after this supposedly started and WoW Shadowlands still had some 10 mil people playing at launch. So that's blatantly false and pulled out of your ass.
    You cant honestly believe wow has 10m players....
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    PvP gear wasn't good catch up gear because you didn't get enough hit chance to hitcap against raid bosses. It was fine to use PvP gear for the occasional slot where you didn't get lucky with PvE drops. Being full PvP geared in a raid made you rather weak, though. It only really worked out for you because you got S3 gear, which was the equivalent of T6 and went into T4 content with it.
    It really didn't as hit cap was overrated typically by how it "felt" to miss or if you were a class with a wombo combo that couldn't afford to be missed. Otherwise missing was not that big of a deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slime View Post
    Because companies will always remain successful when alienating 85% of your paying player-base.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Thank God we have guys like this making our decisions.
    Thank god that "85%" you're claiming aren't the ones bringing in the money for the company anymore as subs aren't as big of a concern since they're getting tons of money from elsewhere.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I noticed this trend over a few topics now. Why do players only consider something an issue when it effects raiders and high end players like mythic+ and gladiators?

    Why is it when it comes to destroying the progression of a player doing heroic dungeons moving onto mythic is it seen as something that has zero value? I constantly see requests and at times celebration when systems are made to undermine low level progression in favor of simply letting people grind repetitive content. Is this just a case of " Its always been this way"?

    Why is the start of the game seen as something that is entirely free to bypass and ruin the progression of the larger playerbase?
    Ideally no one gets fucked over, but sadly its as if theres been created multiple camps, the casuals will cheer when the hardcore players get fucked, and vice versa, even if they gain nothing in return.

    The sad truth is that both players should encourage eachother,, as much as I hate delusional casuals as a hardcore player, I also am very well aware that my "species" would die out without them, almost everyone starts out as a beginner / casual, and later become more experienced, and sometimes more hardcore.

    Not only that, but for the economy and ecology really of the game, hardcore players need other types of players, wether its to buy supplies off, or sell boosts to in order to then buy supplies next tier. players need eachother, and the animosity between them makes very little sense. Do I think they should cater to the more hardcore audience? Yes, theres a million reasons why I think so, but that doesnt mean Ignore every one else, shit isnt black and white like that.

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