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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by slime View Post
    Because companies will always remain successful when alienating 85% of your paying player-base.

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    Thank God we have guys like this making our decisions.
    16 years after this supposedly started and WoW Shadowlands still had some 10 mil people playing at launch. So that's blatantly false and pulled out of your ass.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    I am not a Mythic Raider myself and I do not own any of the Mythic Transmogs despite being addicted to transmoging, do you see me opening threads about the Mythic raiders diminishing my experience? No. Because I do not feel entitled to things I did not earn.

    I do not have the time and frankly the patience to wipe 200 times on a Mythic boss so I am not doing Mythic and thus I do not expect to be given Mythic rewards. It's really that simple.

    People are putting dozens of hours into earning these things and that is reflected in the quality of the loot. Either join them and earn it yourself or don't, but stop pretending like their achievments are somehow diminshing your experience. You are simply jealous, nothing more.
    Your argument looked good until you switched to "they put time in", because at that point you're linking getting stuff with something that mythic raiders quite possibly don't spend any more of than someone who just grinds dailies, WQs, and low-end 5-mans.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    No. Letting players progress for sake of progressing without that progression being linked to effort or atleast beating some new or harder content do not make players have fun or play more. Its complete myth. Progression has to be tied to new or harder gameplay experience otherwise its meaningless progression and players will stop care aka quit playing.
    You can act all puritanical and self righteous all you want, but when players find a brick wall in their progression, a minority will try to Git Gud™ - and a majority will just quietly leave. Which in turn represents less money, i.e. less budget for the toys of the hardcore crowd. If you have a game that is bleeding players left and right, what do you think the next budget will look like? Especially when the game itself is pretty old.

    Hint: don't expect anything the scale of Legion. That was a one time fluke that will not be seen again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    16 years after this supposedly started and WoW Shadowlands still had some 10 mil people playing at launch. So that's blatantly false and pulled out of your ass.
    Source please.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    And those people have the exact same opportunity that the so-called competitive people have. If you want to progress your character after ilvl 200 then the way is PvP, Raid or Mythic Plus.
    Not using this opportunity is a CHOICE and while you are free to make that call, it ridiculous to then expect the game to bend over backwards and give you the gear to progress your character anyway.

    Take responsibility for your own decisions. If you can't be arsed to do the content the game offers then don't complain that you aren't getting the rewards that come with doing this content. What even is this attitude: "I dun wanna work, but I demand to be paid."

    If this is the mindset of the so-called non-competitive crowd then we will be much better off with them unsubbing. I don't expect it being many anyway.
    Good thing there are alternative MMORPGs that allow casuals to progress their gear up to the second best iLvl in the game from doing LFG and LFR and getting a weekly currency. You know like WoW used to in the past.
    What's sad about that is that casuals are leaving in droves to those other games and even if Blizzard decide to fix their shit there's no guarantee that those players will return.
    Ultimately it hurts the game tremendously by not offering long term gear progression to the casual playerbase who don't do mythic dungeons, normal/heroic/mythic raids and ranked PvP.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Good thing there are alternative MMORPGs that allow casuals to progress their gear up to the second best iLvl in the game from doing LFG and LFR and getting a weekly currency. You know like WoW used to in the past.
    What's sad about that is that casuals are leaving in droves to those other games and even if Blizzard decide to fix their shit there's no guarantee that those players will return.
    Ultimately it hurts the game tremendously by not offering long term gear progression to the casual playerbase who don't do mythic dungeons, normal/heroic/mythic raids and ranked PvP.
    You and others keep claiming this but no proof ever gets listed

  6. #186
    The Lightbringer Arganis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    16 years after this supposedly started and WoW Shadowlands still had some 10 mil people playing at launch. So that's blatantly false and pulled out of your ass.
    It’s funny because people constantly equate mass consumption with quality when quality is clearly far from the primary factor.

    WoW does a really a good job of keeping people playing, that doesn’t mean the game is at its best.
    Facilis Descensus Averno

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    It isn't, and as a matter of fact, the experience of competitive players is NEVER tarnished by whatever the casual crowd is doing. So the question doesn't really go both ways, nice attempt though.
    That's a really asinine take on the situation in reverse. It might not be tarnished by what the casual crowd is DOING, but it is tarnished repeatedly by Blizzard attempting to put in features that supposedly benefit the casual crowd.

    Legion artifacts, legendary items, and the -forged system were all great examples of this.

    Why did Blizzard implement all three of those systems the way they did? In their literal own words, they wanted to give an incentive for a higher geared mythic player to raid with a lower tier group on a lower difficulty. It was incredibly flawed logic that made zero sense to anybody in the competitive crowd, and it actually had the opposite effect. I, a mythic raider, would not turn my nose up at my more casual friends if they wanted to invite me to a normal mode fun raid. I decline on the basis that I am not going to get any rewards out of it. Would I go to a PUG normal raid with people I didn't know on my main character? No, but this system didn't encourage that behavior either. All it did was encourage mythic raiders to quickly farm every other difficulty of raid every single week which then made it even less likely that I would need or want to raid any more than I already had to.

    Not only this, but the benefit to a casual audience was negligible anyway. Somebody who only does world quests isn't going to stick around and farm more world quests for better gear. They can already complete all of the world quests. You don't need mythic level gear to finish dailies or normal mode raids. Was it exciting to get a high level drop? Yes, but only to the same degree that opening a loot box and getting a shiny mythic item is.

    So Blizzard's attempt to implement a system that was supposed to allow casual players to progress past their normal barriers and give an incentive for mythic raiders to want to raid lower difficulties on their mains actually ended up doing basically nothing for casual players while simultaneously causing massive burn out from the hardcore raiders who felt the need to farm constantly for forged gear and AP.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post

    Source please.
    1. Shadowlands being the fastest selling WoW expac ever

    2. Blizzard reporting the highest activity of the decade

    If anything I should've said 12 mil but I'm ok with 10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    It’s funny because people constantly equate mass consumption with quality when quality is clearly far from the primary factor.

    WoW does a really a good job of keeping people playing, that doesn’t mean the game is at its best.
    There's no such thing as an objective metric called 'quality' for a subjective art. Numbers is the only objective metric you have.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    16 years after this supposedly started and WoW Shadowlands still had some 10 mil people playing at launch. So that's blatantly false and pulled out of your ass.
    You cant honestly believe wow has 10m players....
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    PvP gear wasn't good catch up gear because you didn't get enough hit chance to hitcap against raid bosses. It was fine to use PvP gear for the occasional slot where you didn't get lucky with PvE drops. Being full PvP geared in a raid made you rather weak, though. It only really worked out for you because you got S3 gear, which was the equivalent of T6 and went into T4 content with it.
    It really didn't as hit cap was overrated typically by how it "felt" to miss or if you were a class with a wombo combo that couldn't afford to be missed. Otherwise missing was not that big of a deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slime View Post
    Because companies will always remain successful when alienating 85% of your paying player-base.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Thank God we have guys like this making our decisions.
    Thank god that "85%" you're claiming aren't the ones bringing in the money for the company anymore as subs aren't as big of a concern since they're getting tons of money from elsewhere.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I noticed this trend over a few topics now. Why do players only consider something an issue when it effects raiders and high end players like mythic+ and gladiators?

    Why is it when it comes to destroying the progression of a player doing heroic dungeons moving onto mythic is it seen as something that has zero value? I constantly see requests and at times celebration when systems are made to undermine low level progression in favor of simply letting people grind repetitive content. Is this just a case of " Its always been this way"?

    Why is the start of the game seen as something that is entirely free to bypass and ruin the progression of the larger playerbase?
    Ideally no one gets fucked over, but sadly its as if theres been created multiple camps, the casuals will cheer when the hardcore players get fucked, and vice versa, even if they gain nothing in return.

    The sad truth is that both players should encourage eachother,, as much as I hate delusional casuals as a hardcore player, I also am very well aware that my "species" would die out without them, almost everyone starts out as a beginner / casual, and later become more experienced, and sometimes more hardcore.

    Not only that, but for the economy and ecology really of the game, hardcore players need other types of players, wether its to buy supplies off, or sell boosts to in order to then buy supplies next tier. players need eachother, and the animosity between them makes very little sense. Do I think they should cater to the more hardcore audience? Yes, theres a million reasons why I think so, but that doesnt mean Ignore every one else, shit isnt black and white like that.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Tumile View Post
    hardcore players need other types of players, wether its to buy supplies off, or sell boosts to in order to then buy supplies next tier. players need eachother, and the animosity between them makes very little sense.
    Which is why it's a very bad idea for the developers and the hardcore community to drive the casual players away to rival MMORPGs. Eventually there won't be any casual players left and WoW will be a shell of its former self. We all want this game to do well so we should want every type of player to have a reason to log in frequently to work on their gear, their collectables etc.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Which is why it's a very bad idea for the developers and the hardcore community to drive the casual players away to rival MMORPGs. Eventually there won't be any casual players left and WoW will be a shell of its former self. We all want this game to do well so we should want every type of player to have a reason to log in frequently to work on their gear, their collectables etc.
    There are an awful lot of assumptions in that post...

    Ill ignore all the glaring assumptions and fantasy scenarios presented, and ask you one specific questions:

    In what way has a player from the "hardcore community" attempted to drive you away from wow?


    Now, this is a very specific question, about you personally, and your interaction with this "hardcore community" member, and how it drove you away from the game. What happened? How do you know this person was part of the "hardcore community"?

    I dont want some made up stories about "oh well THEY do this and THEY do that", no, i want a specific example that has given you this impression, because its a very strong stance to take if you are basing it purely on feelcrafting from what some kids on the net said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  14. #194
    Am I a casual??
    I play maybe 10 hours a week
    I have 1 alt
    I don’t run torghast anymore
    I don’t farm the maw
    I don’t have all covenant buildings at 3 yet
    Like half the dungeons I have are either over time or +6 and I don’t farm them
    I don’t full clear the raid on any difficulty

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You cant honestly believe wow has 10m players....
    It probably had more during SL launch. Now, probably 5-6 ish mil.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    It probably had more during SL launch. Now, probably 5-6 ish mil.
    So you believe close to or more than 10,000,000 waited until after launch to purchase Shadowlands?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So you believe close to or more than 10,000,000 waited until after launch to purchase Shadowlands?
    Apparently so. Cataclysm had 12 million subs and sold 3.3 mil copies by launch. Shadowlands sold 3.7 mil.

  18. #198
    The Lightbringer Arganis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    1. Shadowlands being the fastest selling WoW expac ever

    2. Blizzard reporting the highest activity of the decade

    If anything I should've said 12 mil but I'm ok with 10

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    There's no such thing as an objective metric called 'quality' for a subjective art. Numbers is the only objective metric you have.
    Sure dude, but then don’t conflate your numbers with the quality of the experience. A dealer can have the most addicts without necessarily having the best quality drugs.

    Saying the quality of WoW is “A” Ok because they’ve still got millions of paying subs is like saying Big Macs are quality burgers because millions of people still eat them.
    Facilis Descensus Averno

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Apparently so. Cataclysm had 12 million subs and sold 3.3 mil copies by launch. Shadowlands sold 3.7 mil.
    3.3 + 4.7. Cata had official sale of 3.3m + 4.7m.

    Additionally, there was an abundance of data supporting the official claim of 12m subs - SL has nothing to support even 5m subs, let alone more than 12m.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Now, this is a very specific question, about you personally, and your interaction with this "hardcore community" member, and how it drove you away from the game. What happened? How do you know this person was part of the "hardcore community"?
    I don't believe I said anything about having such an encounter. I said that it's a bad idea to drive players away from the game, either through design or through community.

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