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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    You can act all puritanical and self righteous all you want, but when players find a brick wall in their progression, a minority will try to Git Gud™ - and a majority will just quietly leave. Which in turn represents less money, i.e. less budget for the toys of the hardcore crowd. If you have a game that is bleeding players left and right, what do you think the next budget will look like? Especially when the game itself is pretty old.

    Hint: don't expect anything the scale of Legion. That was a one time fluke that will not be seen again.

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    Source please.
    You claim that Blizzard is "bleeding players left and right", something that you can't prove. While wikipedia will straight up tell you they sold 3.7 mil copies on launch day alone. Can you not sense the hypocrisy here?
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  2. #262
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You claim that Blizzard is "bleeding players left and right", something that you can't prove. While wikipedia will straight up tell you they sold 3.7 mil copies on launch day alone. Can you not sense the hypocrisy here?
    I said "if", aka a possibility, not a declarative statement. If I was in your place, I would really try to improve my reading comprehension skills before I'd start trying to educate others. But to each its own
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy.

  3. #263
    Well, casual players shouldn't really be so concerned with gear as those types of players, nor does them getting gear that's mythic equivalent something they should be handed, when they have no real "use" for it.

    Back when I first started playing I would inspect people in my garbage gear, and see their gear, and I wanted it. So I worked towards it and eventually cleared all of the raid content in TBC to get it, which was a big accomplishment to me and the difficulty, and in general at the time. So do you think someone who did what I did should have someone who did far less, yet have gear that's very similar to mine?

    Same reason that video games balance from the top down, because bad players can always improve and reach a higher point for the rewards. It's actually far more accessiable and easy to learn in WoW than most games like that. "I don't have the time" "I have a job/life/kids" Well, how is that everyone else's problem? Most people would probably tell you WoW is far more casual now than it's ever been, but some people just make excuses and want the easy road.
    *Insert every single ridiculous PC parts detail here that no one cares about*

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    I mean having no friends/guild and just pugging all the time. That's miserable imo.

    Both for gameplay reasons ( harder to find groups/raids since you're at the mercy of LFG ) and social reasons ( having people to brag to about your newly acquired mount/rating/whatever )
    There's a reason a lot of people prefer playing this way, though. It doesn't require scheduling, it doesn't cultivate relationships in which you might be burdened with expectations, it's easier to manage, and so on. It has downsides as well, clearly; that's why this almost never works at the very high end. But for a lot of people it works well enough to do the content they want to do, in the way they want to do it.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    There's a reason a lot of people prefer playing this way, though. It doesn't require scheduling, it doesn't cultivate relationships in which you might be burdened with expectations, it's easier to manage, and so on. It has downsides as well, clearly; that's why this almost never works at the very high end. But for a lot of people it works well enough to do the content they want to do, in the way they want to do it.
    That's why MMORPGs that offer both are starting to close in on WoW.
    If you can offer casual players a long path to the second best gear in the game through running LFG/LFR and random BGs that's a lot of happy subscribers. You just have to make sure that it takes long enough to get all the gear so it doesn't make the hardcore community feel like it's something that they must do.
    If WoW had this as a core system rival MMORPGs wouldn't had stolen so many players.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    That's why MMORPGs that offer both are starting to close in on WoW.
    If you can offer casual players a long path to the second best gear in the game through running LFG/LFR and random BGs that's a lot of happy subscribers. You just have to make sure that it takes long enough to get all the gear so it doesn't make the hardcore community feel like it's something that they must do.
    If WoW had this as a core system rival MMORPGs wouldn't had stolen so many players.
    lolwhat? No MMO is closing in on WoW.

  7. #267
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    lolwhat? No MMO is closing in on WoW.
    Source please. I'm tired of all these folks claiming that "WoW is number one", or contrariwise "WoW is dying" without bothering to produce even an ounce of evidence. Ditto for comparisons with other MMOs, since the last time I checked, there is no publicly available data from either Bethesda/Zenimax, Square Enix, or Arenanet - or Blizzard itself, while we're at it.
    Last edited by Soon-TM; 2021-05-25 at 01:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy.

  8. #268
    Wow has never been a hard game. It went from:

    vanilla: slow game, easy classes, easy bosses but long farm and attunements to get to content. Basically, you needed time to get the best stuff.

    It started changing slowly but surely until they introduced things like easy grouping, mythic raid, LFR raid for those with no time to follow the lore, normal/heroic/mythic instances then mythic+ keys. The game started getting way way faster than vanilla and started piling up systems on top of systems.

    The game lost its RPG element and its mmo elements to try and give those with no time at their hand to be able to play. But then by lowering the time constraint, they upped the complexity until it has become what we have now. Borrowed power everywhere, instead of your character, its talents and specs with better gear being the most important thing it has become a character, its specs, its legendary, its convenant, its gear, its talents, its rotation and its scaling with gear...

    Been around since vanilla, I dont miss the vanilla/TBC period but I feel that somewhere along the journey we have lost the essence of what makes an mmorpg.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Yeah that's not true at all. Unless you're lucky enough to get on a guild team, your gear progression essentially stops entirely at a certain point. LFG is filled with people expecting ridiculous ilvls for content like normal raids. The fact that you think it's so easy to just participate in higher end activity shows you either don't play the same game or have gotten really fortunate with your guild.

    And it IS a lot of people unsubbing. Because the gear progression in Shadowlands is utter garbage. Nobody is going to want to play a game where they will likely never increase their character's power until the next patch.

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    It's a myth huh? Tell me why the majority of the playerbase really only does LFR then.
    If you want to play like that outside a guild, you have to tank, heal, or nolife a dps spec at the start of the expansion. Otherwise you have no shot because dps are a dime a dozen.
    Every single wow player should always try to make their own groups. Then you'd just have thousands of groups in group finder, without a single applicant.

  10. #270
    Funny just speaking for myself I come from mmorpgs that reward time spent or hard content done or even both sometime its not shocking to me players want time spent rewards vs hard content done rewards for WoW At all.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Source please. I'm tired of all these folks claiming that "WoW is number one", or contrariwise "WoW is dying" without bothering to produce even an ounce of evidence. Ditto for comparisons with other MMOs, since the last time I checked, there is no publicly available data from either Bethesda/Zenimax, Square Enix, or Arenanet - or Blizzard itself, while we're at it.
    To be fair this very much depends on how you rate the quality of an MMORPG and there are dozens of answers to that, but if we go to the roots, then MMOs are about groups of players joining to beat things up together. They are the digital evolution of good ol' D&D groups slogging through dungeons for kills and loot. You may disagree with this, but I think that much is pretty clear.

    While other games certainly are better then WoW in some aspects, like story, pvp, solo content and such, there is no MMO currently that can hold a candle to WoWs group content, neither in quality nor in quantity. Especially since the addition of Mythic Plus allowed endless progression and endless relevance of dungeons on top of the raids.
    This makes WoW the best MMO for many people, because many want the group content. So if we are rating MMOs by what can be considered as the root of MMORPGing, then WoW is still number one, but if a player is looking for something else, s/he might not agree.
    For example, someone coming for a good story will not find that here (even though the game did improve a lot on that since vanilla), they would be much better served in SWTOR for example, while people that want group content will have a terrible time in that game and would be well served here.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    .

    While other games certainly are better then WoW in some aspects, like story, pvp, solo content and such, there is no MMO currently that can hold a candle to WoWs group content, neither in quality nor in quantity. Especially since the addition of Mythic Plus allowed endless progression and endless relevance of dungeons on top of the raids.
    This makes WoW the best MMO for many people, because many want the group content. So if we are rating MMOs by what can be considered as the root of MMORPGing, then WoW is still number one
    Using that logic, Wildstar should be one of the best if not the best MMORPG on the market. Remind me, how's that game doing at the moment?

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Using that logic, Wildstar should be one of the best if not the best MMORPG on the market. Remind me, how's that game doing at the moment?
    If group content was that game's focus then it obviously didn't do it well. All I remember of that thing is that it had these furry creatures and that as with all new MMOs people considered it the final WoW killer only for it to die a whimpering death.

    Other then supporting my claim that no MMO past or present did group content better then WoW, what is your point?

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Source please. I'm tired of all these folks claiming that "WoW is number one", or contrariwise "WoW is dying" without bothering to produce even an ounce of evidence. Ditto for comparisons with other MMOs, since the last time I checked, there is no publicly available data from either Bethesda/Zenimax, Square Enix, or Arenanet - or Blizzard itself, while we're at it.
    I don't need any source. He claimed MMOs are closing in on WoW with no evidence.

    An argument made with no evidence can be disregarded with no evidence.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor

    This is basic logic.

    But sure, I'll play ball. FF14 is the biggest MMO after WoW and they were recently bragging about having 25 mil lifetime players. WoW is estimated to have over 100 million.

    Not satisfied with this either? Let's look at Google Trends, then.



    What else you want me to link? Twitch? Youtube trailer views?

    Let's talk about ESO which died so fast they had to go buy to play instead of sub-based.

    there is no publicly available data from either Bethesda/Zenimax, Square Enix, or Arenanet - or Blizzard itself, while we're at it.
    The fact that all those games are not sub-based means they know they'd make less money ( read: have fewer players paying ). They aren't even competition. They're not in the same stratosphere.

    Only FF14 is and even that one is way, way behind.

    And WoW's an old game mind you. It's old enough to vote.
    Last edited by starstationprofm; 2021-05-25 at 11:11 AM.

  15. #275
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    <Irrelevant drivel>
    Btw, Google trends? Seriously? C'mon dude.

    But sure, I'll play ball. FF14 is the biggest MMO after WoW and they were recently bragging about having 25 mil lifetime players. WoW is estimated to have over 100 million.

    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    FF14 is the biggest MMO after WoW and they were recently bragging about having 25 mil lifetime players. WoW is estimated to have over 100 million.
    Means exactly zero, nada, rien, zilch as of today. I know you'd like to convince yourself that WoW#1, but you'll need something else than that LOL
    Last edited by Soon-TM; 2021-05-25 at 06:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Btw, Google trends? Seriously? C'mon dude.
    Hey if you got any data to support your statement that there's a bigger MMO than WoW I'm happy to hear it.

    Trends, Twitch views, Youtube views, Twitter hits, Reddit sub numbers all prove towards WoW being bigger.

    You seem to be arguing in bad faith so unless you got anything, talk to the hand.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    One word: epeen.

    A lot of people have a need to shore up their self esteem by talking down, and it's rarely the truly good ones that do so.

    I mean there's a reason they keep adding higher difficulties while lower difficulties become easier / more trivialised / more abandoned over time.
    It's like with job titles, you need to keep the mediocre masses motivated by pretending they're getting better.

    So yeah, the competitive scene is a bit like the Chief Executive button pressers of WoW.
    The fact that you willfully imply that blizzard is purposely trivializing low difficulty content more and more for “epeen” just shows your complete ignorance on how character progression functions in a game like wow. Think about it for even just 1 second, why should an enemy with like half the stats (normal) of what you’re typically fighting (anything above normal) give you equal challenge? That’s fucking dumb. And before you try, you can’t even pretend it’s some bs cooked up for more recent wow expansions and players. Stockades was “trivial” for people running UBRS. WoW has always had content that requires PCs to be stronger and when PCs become stronger, older content will become “trivial”. /ShockedPikachu

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