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  1. #141
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Its different teams creating different things, it wouldnt matter much, it would be good though if we would get something like with Crucible in BFA in every big raid tier.

    The mini-raids between tiers always give you a couple more weeks or 4 of progression, makes the game more fun you know?
    Money is fungible and they can shunt all the resources into just making raids and pvp which is evidently all ion thinks is valuable anyway. I wish he had the fucking bals to back that up though. He can go back to being a lawyer after. Of course they don't because they fucking know better but it really does illustrate the disdain they have for most of the players of this game.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #142
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    No but certainly you can give them things to work for no?

    For people who struggle through normal dungeons completing heroics would be a meaningful personal achievement to them no?

    Why then does their seem to be this expectation to over gear them to the point it is painfully clear they didn't overcome anything but simply out geared it?
    Blame blizzard for making welfare than and making all early-mid game (even at max lvl) useless

    In fact, it was casuals and bads who demanded that early-mid game be made obsolete by begging for catchup
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.
    Classic+ Retune/New Boss Abilities >>> #nochanges crowd

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Hey There Guys its Metro View Post
    This problem doesn't exist. Its a fallacy thought up by players who wish they were more successful than they are, perhaps to help them cope with that gap?

    A "non-competitive player" is not seeking difficulty at all. They are not seeking competition or progression, by definition.
    They simply play for fun and that's where it ends.

    Instead, what you are describing is an (extremely?) unsuccessful competitive player.
    If you are pursuing progression and climbing the difficulty curve at any level, you are competitive.
    Just like an amateur sports practitioner is competing in their local whatever.
    Competition is not only professionals.

    So to answer your question:

    Because it is for non-competitive players.
    Its goals are to get you hooked by the game and potentially turn you into a competitive player and encourage you to pursue progression.
    Not entirely true. I know plenty who would love to push themselves into M+ who are shunned by the community because they don't have a high enough ranking because they are at the front of progression, while at the same time not able to be group leaders due to anxiety or lack of experience.

    They want progression, but not the competitive nature held within that prevents many from progressing in areas they may want. It's a multifaceted problem with no easy solution unfortunately.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    There is a girl who get 6 figures per months pretending to be a dog. Sure.
    Meant sports, not earning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Is a game that offers you absurdly powerful items in a situation they are clearly not designed for a fun game to most people? Is an rpg that randomly gives you a end game weapon in the first level good design?

    I find this an odd argument ... its not considered competitive so it should have zero concern for balance at all?
    The game is fine as it is. Why would someone who does easier content care about balance? What's the point?
    If you want to be competentive, then do highest possible content. Where mostly skill should matter.

  5. #145
    You not understanding it doesn't give you the right to literally insult my intelligence.

    Please grow up.

    I know the game was originally designed around levelling because I spoke in person one of the people who designed it about it, and of course its feature set on the back of the game box tells the same story.

  6. #146
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    People here are basically demanding the highest ilvl gear for logging in and playing flappy bird. Absolutely ridiculous.
    In fact—and this is pretty much always as it has been—there are many more people, including yourself, who are up in arms and outraged by even the idea of such a thing than people demanding it. It's rare that anyone comes in and claims they want mythic level gear for doing world quests.

    Yeah, people complain that's what people are writing but it's largely untrue. Most casuals simply want to log in, play for a while and in some way feel that their character is improved.

    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy which means in some respects they're doing it wrong as well.

    It's what you get when spreadsheets rule over creative ideas. Over-engineered crap that isn't all that much fun.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  7. #147
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeanix View Post
    because tryhards thinks the game revolves around them.
    Truth be told, it pretty much does, first with BfA and especially now in SL.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy which means in some respects they're doing it wrong as well.
    Dear sir/ma'am, this is sig worthy material. Can I borrow it pls?

    ML: Be my guest.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2021-05-16 at 08:08 PM.
    Current state of WoW lore:
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Who'd have known that the Domination guy whose aesthetics are 80% chains wasn't into freedom. Nobody could have seen this coming.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work."
    I find it quite sad. I feel more pity for players like that more than anything else.
    You're absolutely right, games should be fun and relaxing or exciting, not work.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I noticed this trend over a few topics now. Why do players only consider something an issue when it effects raiders and high end players like mythic+ and gladiators?

    Why is it when it comes to destroying the progression of a player doing heroic dungeons moving onto mythic is it seen as something that has zero value? I constantly see requests and at times celebration when systems are made to undermine low level progression in favor of simply letting people grind repetitive content. Is this just a case of " Its always been this way"?

    Why is the start of the game seen as something that is entirely free to bypass and ruin the progression of the larger playerbase?
    One word: epeen.

    A lot of people have a need to shore up their self esteem by talking down, and it's rarely the truly good ones that do so.

    I mean there's a reason they keep adding higher difficulties while lower difficulties become easier / more trivialised / more abandoned over time.
    It's like with job titles, you need to keep the mediocre masses motivated by pretending they're getting better.

    So yeah, the competitive scene is a bit like the Chief Executive button pressers of WoW.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    In fact—and this is pretty much always as it has been—there are many more people, including yourself, who are up in arms and outraged by even the idea of such a thing than people demanding it. It's rare that anyone comes in and claims they want mythic level gear for doing world quests.

    Yeah, people complain that's what people are writing but it's largely untrue. Most casuals simply want to log in, play for a while and in some way feel that their character is improved.

    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy which means in some respects they're doing it wrong as well.

    It's what you get when spreadsheets rule over creative ideas. Over-engineered crap that isn't all that much fun.
    1. I’m not outraged. This thread is silly and ridiculous. Nobody in their right mind gets outraged about a thread like that. Amused, sure. Not outraged.
    2. Can’t casuals login and progress their character right now? Am I talking crazy pills? Isn’t the game right now specifically designed with a ton of difficulties so that everyone can find their place? Isn’t the weekly chest designed around giving a weekly ilvl increase as long as you do something? Your open world progression ends at ~200. If you’re playing WoW and you have no intention to do dungeons, raids or PvP then you’re playing the wrong game. Those have always been the main pillars of this game. And they will always be that. The open world is busywork filler content. Always has been.
    3. I feel like the problem is not that casuals don’t get to progress their characters. It’s that they are behind the better players in their progression and are simply jealous. Yeah you don’t get a weekly 226 item from the vault. So what? If your average ilvl is 200 then even 205 would be an upgrade for you. If feeling like you got something out of your playtime it is truly what you seek, then there should be no problem whatsoever. So what is the problem again?

  11. #151
    It is LEGEND's fault.

    Every Paladin is special, the best of the best, instantly recognized when you step into the new expansion city. Then quickly praised for your skills and "YOU ARE THE ONE", all the famous and cool NPC paladin now looks up to you with the best weapon that paladin could have. You are the leader of Paladin.

    Those fake ass clown theme park NPC said the same stuff to every Paladin that step through the portal.

    But people are not fake ass clown them park NPC, in some cases we definitely are, but not here... I am so Sorry.
    Last edited by gobio; 2021-05-17 at 02:12 AM.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeanix View Post
    it revolves around whales, not tryhards.
    I have seen this term thrown around with some frequency recently - can you define what a "whale" is in this context?
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy which means in some respects they're doing it wrong as well.
    Like any other hobby WoW comes with the responsibility to apply yourself.

    If you do sports with a team then they damn well expect you to pull your own weight. Think soccer. The second time you are standing on the field like a sack of rice and your team looses they will give you shit for it. The third time you are out, because nobody wants to play with you.

    If you play an instrument you need to aquire skills or your audience will quickly tell you to stop playing.

    It's very normal that hobbies require you to learn skills and put effort into them, why people expect that this doesn't apply to video games -especially a multi-player one - is beyond me.

    For example: Yesterday I tried to pug CN Normal, which is alright, but you quickly notice that halve the group is just there to let themselves be carried and never has any intention of learning or doing the mechanics. Case in point, on the Council we wiped again and again, because no one could be arsed to watch for the interrupts. Everyone suffered and had their fun ruined because some "are just doing this for fun" and "it's not work".

    If you don't want your performance to matter at all I suggest you stick to single-player games, where it at least doesn't affect others, instead of trying to push this mindset on a multi-player game.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Typically heroic won't have all the mechanics, they'll trim a few. Either removing them outright or making one shot/wipe mechanics negligible. Like first boss in HoA doesn't have the circle you need to stay inside or you get feared. You have the entire room to avoid wreckage and dodge the beams.
    That's not the progression they're talking about, innit? This is the difference in mechanics, where in normal and heroic you simply get watered down versions of the bosses with 1 purpose - to never pose a threat, unless you're severely undergeared. It was fun doing them the first time after hitting 60, during that week, where you could only do heroic while wearing 150 ilvl crafted gear, then moving on to mythic next week. It was fun because we were experiencing mechanics for the first time, and we were undergeared. Today, a fresh level 60 can already mostly outgear heroics (full 168 crafted gear, slightly lower weapons from world quests, 200 trinket). You roll through heroics mega-fast without any challenge. There is no progression where there is no challenge. And that why I'm questioning the OP. There is no point in considering that content in terms of major features and changes, because that content only exists for the first 2 weeks. Its completely fine to be on the lower end of the spectrum in terms of progression, but that is still raiding (normal and hc) and m+ (between +4 and +10). Anything below that doesn't have progression as it has no difficulty, that's dead content. The max level path of normal-heroic-mythic dungeons is redundant. Either make heroic and mythic harder, then tune the m+ difficulty (rather have KSM @+10, than have +2-4, +6-8 of being practically the same difficulty-wise. Or remove max level normals, tune heroics slight lower to decrease the ilvl entry barrier.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I noticed this trend over a few topics now. Why do players only consider something an issue when it effects raiders and high end players like mythic+ and gladiators?

    Why is it when it comes to destroying the progression of a player doing heroic dungeons moving onto mythic is it seen as something that has zero value? I constantly see requests and at times celebration when systems are made to undermine low level progression in favor of simply letting people grind repetitive content. Is this just a case of " Its always been this way"?

    Why is the start of the game seen as something that is entirely free to bypass and ruin the progression of the larger playerbase?

    Wow was at its peak when exclusive gear and mounts required the player to do the hardest content. I ll let you ponder that a few hours and wonder why when the game had so many exclusive rewards was it at its peak.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfacin9 View Post
    That's not the progression they're talking about, innit? This is the difference in mechanics, where in normal and heroic you simply get watered down versions of the bosses with 1 purpose - to never pose a threat, unless you're severely undergeared. It was fun doing them the first time after hitting 60, during that week, where you could only do heroic while wearing 150 ilvl crafted gear, then moving on to mythic next week. It was fun because we were experiencing mechanics for the first time, and we were undergeared. Today, a fresh level 60 can already mostly outgear heroics (full 168 crafted gear, slightly lower weapons from world quests, 200 trinket). You roll through heroics mega-fast without any challenge. There is no progression where there is no challenge. And that why I'm questioning the OP. There is no point in considering that content in terms of major features and changes, because that content only exists for the first 2 weeks. Its completely fine to be on the lower end of the spectrum in terms of progression, but that is still raiding (normal and hc) and m+ (between +4 and +10). Anything below that doesn't have progression as it has no difficulty, that's dead content. The max level path of normal-heroic-mythic dungeons is redundant. Either make heroic and mythic harder, then tune the m+ difficulty (rather have KSM @+10, than have +2-4, +6-8 of being practically the same difficulty-wise. Or remove max level normals, tune heroics slight lower to decrease the ilvl entry barrier.
    The only way someone couldnt complete a m+0 with adequite gear is if they wherent able to read what their abilities do or what the bosses abilities does in the combat log. This most likely translates into not being old enough to play the game anyway.

    I've had the same argument against the OP earlier in the thread but he doesnt seem to keen on responding to it

  17. #157
    Shadowlands is greatly improved compared to Legion and BFA, however there is still room for improvement. I think 9.1 will be pretty good and if they follow the path that they have set with Shadowland's launch they could make casuals (in time investment NOT skill) fell in love with the game once again.

    Classes are very good compared to the latter expansions, the instances and the raids are top as always, the only think that i dislike nowadays is that you cannot solo q on mythic+ and on rated pvp (always having the necessary credentials of completed the previous difficulty, having completed mythic 9 to queue for mythic 10, and having reached 1800 rating to queue for 1900 rating, etc).

    I strongly believe that if solo q is enabled (for harder content) it will give a huge boost in WoW's performance in terms of both subscription numbers and retention.

    Yeah obviously World Content needs to be improved far and away from what it currently is nowadays but i have not seen any other MMO being good at that as well, I think only GW2 has good world content.

    As it regards the professions, they were also a side thing for the raids (and for mythic+ nowadays), ffxiv is great on the professions side and WoW should probably look into it but when professions were harder i could never ever the highest skill point on any but now i can do it without much hustle, i even max out fishing and cooking and working on Archeology every now and then, which is nice for me i guess.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    MMORPGs always had some element of competition. But the key was that cooperation was always more valuable. I think BlizZard has lost sight of this. Vanilla raiding wasn't really difficult but it was more of a cooperative experience.

    Current raiding scene is hyper focused competition because of the many mechanics.
    Vannila raiding was difficult in 2004. Its not difficult now in 2021.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Vannila raiding was difficult in 2004. Its not difficult now in 2021.
    it was difficult in 2004 because of the fact we were all bad at the game and the pc and internet was garbage

    today it is actually harder in terms of mechanics

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    No but certainly you can give them things to work for no?

    For people who struggle through normal dungeons completing heroics would be a meaningful personal achievement to them no?

    Why then does their seem to be this expectation to over gear them to the point it is painfully clear they didn't overcome anything but simply out geared it?
    As a high end player (m+ and raiding) let me tell you that the reward structure is broken everywhere. Its not only on the lower end spectrum, but also all the way up to the end. Gear progression got a lot worse since BfA.

    You are right of course that currently heroic dungeons are in a really bad place because there is no reason for them to exist anymore as they campaign gives you gear to easily completely overgear them and remove them from the gearing progression completely.

    This is true for many other aspects of the game too at the moment.

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