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  1. #161
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psyquest View Post
    Wow was at its peak when exclusive gear and mounts required the player to do the hardest content. I ll let you ponder that a few hours and wonder why when the game had so many exclusive rewards was it at its peak.
    I mean... People who do the hardest content (mythic raids, gladiator) still have exclusive mounts, xmogs and titles, so by your logic WoW still is at its prime.

    Now, some among them could have bought their way into all that shiny stuff, but that's an entirely different story.
    Current state of WoW lore:
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Who'd have known that the Domination guy whose aesthetics are 80% chains wasn't into freedom. Nobody could have seen this coming.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonshield13 View Post
    I think you’re on the right track with this. Today, we have numerous convenient systems that group players together to down content efficiently, therefore, bypassing the social and competitive ways to find like minded players who were interested in progressing through various forms of content. It didn’t become this way overnight. It’s been gradual, and back in earlier expansions before LFR, LFD and guild finder, etc, it required social interaction to seek out players to do content. This was even satisfying enough for the casual players, and it didn’t matter as much to them that they didn’t get to raid in places like Naxramas, Black Temple, Sunwell - you get the idea. People in leading edge guilds didn’t care about casuals, and casuals didn’t feel ignored by the top end guilds. Every guild usually had something to progress towards in socially cooperative ways without these modern convenient systems we have today.

    TLDR; Social interaction in earlier expansions of the game was a form of content in itself, creating meaningful and fulfilling experiences that drove players to want to do more challenging content. Today’s group finders dilute the player experience and have helped to polarize casual players from competitive players.
    There is truth in that the player base has become more segregated with all these various systems in place. The only area where you see hardcore and casual interact with each other is still in unrated BGs ironically. It can be a frustrating experience for players on both sides of the spectrum but it is also refreshing because you learn about the differences. And with these differences you still try to cooperate to win the BG even if there is a skill and/or gear gap.

    That element of cooperation is indeed lost with PVE side progression and I don't think BlizZard realizes this.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfacin9 View Post
    Snip
    "OP, what sort of a progression is there from heroic to mythic dungeons, apart from increased difficulty?" That's what you said. And I answered you.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by ek0zu View Post
    Shadowlands is greatly improved compared to Legion and BFA, however there is still room for improvement. I think 9.1 will be pretty good and if they follow the path that they have set with Shadowland's launch they could make casuals (in time investment NOT skill) fell in love with the game once again.

    Classes are very good compared to the latter expansions, the instances and the raids are top as always, the only think that i dislike nowadays is that you cannot solo q on mythic+ and on rated pvp (always having the necessary credentials of completed the previous difficulty, having completed mythic 9 to queue for mythic 10, and having reached 1800 rating to queue for 1900 rating, etc).

    I strongly believe that if solo q is enabled (for harder content) it will give a huge boost in WoW's performance in terms of both subscription numbers and retention.

    Yeah obviously World Content needs to be improved far and away from what it currently is nowadays but i have not seen any other MMO being good at that as well, I think only GW2 has good world content.

    As it regards the professions, they were also a side thing for the raids (and for mythic+ nowadays), ffxiv is great on the professions side and WoW should probably look into it but when professions were harder i could never ever the highest skill point on any but now i can do it without much hustle, i even max out fishing and cooking and working on Archeology every now and then, which is nice for me i guess.
    With that point or rank system they are putting into m+ and the fact that arena has ratings already, a solo queue should be coming. Probably a big feature in the next xpac and gives them time to flesh out the system in a decent way.

    Honestly, I would probably play wow more if it was in the game. My playstyle suits a queue system with quick in and out. It might not be the best for the game overall, but personally I would welcome it. And at this point - why not right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    There is truth in that the player base has become more segregated with all these various systems in place. The only area where you see hardcore and casual interact with each other is still in unrated BGs ironically. It can be a frustrating experience for players on both sides of the spectrum but it is also refreshing because you learn about the differences. And with these differences you still try to cooperate to win the BG even if there is a skill and/or gear gap.

    That element of cooperation is indeed lost with PVE side progression and I don't think BlizZard realizes this.
    normal is for leveling, complete story/questlines. I have no idea what purpose heroic dungeon serves at all at this point. They MIGHT serve a purpose early on in the xpac, but they are so quickly obsolete. Goes to show Blizzard dont really know what to do with it, so it just stays

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    It isn't, and as a matter of fact, the experience of competitive players is NEVER tarnished by whatever the casual crowd is doing. So the question doesn't really go both ways, nice attempt though.
    It most certainly is, so bad attempt though. This constant demand for gear for doing trivial content is diminishing to the competitive players. The big mistake of the expansion was giving 197 gear so easily which is actually what the OP is about but it went over your head lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I mean... People who do the hardest content (mythic raids, gladiator) still have exclusive mounts, xmogs and titles, so by your logic WoW still is at its prime.

    Now, some among them could have bought their way into all that shiny stuff, but that's an entirely different story.
    Exclusive? So you mean no one else can ever get them once they massively outgear and outlevel it? No? That word doesn't mean what you think it means then.

  6. #166
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    It most certainly is, so bad attempt though. This constant demand for gear for doing trivial content is diminishing to the competitive players. The big mistake of the expansion was giving 197 gear so easily which is actually what the OP is about but it went over your head lol.
    Players need to feel like their toon is progressing, else they unsub. Given how the only way in thisgame to progress your character is through gear, people will always be asking for gear, so your point is kind of moot. Not even an attempt at rebuttal


    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    So you mean no one else can ever get them once they massively outgear and outlevel it? No? That word doesn't mean what you think it means then.
    Given how e.g. mounts go from a 100% drop rate when the raid is current to 1% once it becomes obsolete, yes - the mounts are effectively exclusive, unless you grind those old raids like a madman or are EXTREMELY lucky.
    Current state of WoW lore:
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Who'd have known that the Domination guy whose aesthetics are 80% chains wasn't into freedom. Nobody could have seen this coming.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Given how e.g. mounts go from a 100% drop rate when the raid is current to 1% once it becomes obsolete, yes - the mounts are effectively exclusive, unless you grind those old raids like a madman or are EXTREMELY lucky.
    And the transmogs?
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  8. #168
    what do you mean by non-competitive? it that slang for people who dont raid or pvp? or is it for people who suck. perhaps people who just farm and like to make gold? maybe achievement oriented individuals? what is it meant by non-competitive?

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Players need to feel like their toon is progressing, else they unsub. Given how the only way in thisgame to progress your character is through gear, people will always be asking for gear, so your point is kind of moot. Not even an attempt at rebuttal
    And those people have the exact same opportunity that the so-called competitive people have. If you want to progress your character after ilvl 200 then the way is PvP, Raid or Mythic Plus.
    Not using this opportunity is a CHOICE and while you are free to make that call, it ridiculous to then expect the game to bend over backwards and give you the gear to progress your character anyway.

    Take responsibility for your own decisions. If you can't be arsed to do the content the game offers then don't complain that you aren't getting the rewards that come with doing this content. What even is this attitude: "I dun wanna work, but I demand to be paid."

    If this is the mindset of the so-called non-competitive crowd then we will be much better off with them unsubbing. I don't expect it being many anyway.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Players need to feel like their toon is progressing, else they unsub. Given how the only way in thisgame to progress your character is through gear, people will always be asking for gear, so your point is kind of moot. Not even an attempt at rebuttal
    No. Letting players progress for sake of progressing without that progression being linked to effort or atleast beating some new or harder content do not make players have fun or play more. Its complete myth. Progression has to be tied to new or harder gameplay experience otherwise its meaningless progression and players will stop care aka quit playing.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    And those people have the exact same opportunity that the so-called competitive people have. If you want to progress your character after ilvl 200 then the way is PvP, Raid or Mythic Plus.
    Not using this opportunity is a CHOICE and while you are free to make that call, it ridiculous to then expect the game to bend over backwards and give you the gear to progress your character anyway.

    Take responsibility for your own decisions. If you can't be arsed to do the content the game offers then don't complain that you aren't getting the rewards that come with doing this content. What even is this attitude: "I dun wanna work, but I demand to be paid."

    If this is the mindset of the so-called non-competitive crowd then we will be much better off with them unsubbing. I don't expect it being many anyway.
    Yeah that's not true at all. Unless you're lucky enough to get on a guild team, your gear progression essentially stops entirely at a certain point. LFG is filled with people expecting ridiculous ilvls for content like normal raids. The fact that you think it's so easy to just participate in higher end activity shows you either don't play the same game or have gotten really fortunate with your guild.

    And it IS a lot of people unsubbing. Because the gear progression in Shadowlands is utter garbage. Nobody is going to want to play a game where they will likely never increase their character's power until the next patch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    No. Letting players progress for sake of progressing without that progression being linked to effort or atleast beating some new or harder content do not make players have fun or play more. Its complete myth. Progression has to be tied to new or harder gameplay experience otherwise its meaningless progression and players will stop care aka quit playing.
    It's a myth huh? Tell me why the majority of the playerbase really only does LFR then.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Yeah that's not true at all. Unless you're lucky enough to get on a guild team, your gear progression essentially stops entirely at a certain point. LFG is filled with people expecting ridiculous ilvls for content like normal raids. The fact that you think it's so easy to just participate in higher end activity shows you either don't play the same game or have gotten really fortunate with your guild.

    And it IS a lot of people unsubbing. Because the gear progression in Shadowlands is utter garbage. Nobody is going to want to play a game where they will likely never increase their character's power until the next patch.

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    It's a myth huh? Tell me why the majority of the playerbase really only does LFR then.
    Becouse majority of playerbase only cares about beating wow content and to experience story. Rest is nothing but gear tredmill what most people are not interested in.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Becouse majority of playerbase only cares about beating wow content and to experience story. Rest is nothing but gear tredmill what most people are not interested in.
    There are plenty of incentives in higher end content like mounts and exclusive transmog that there is no reason to make high ilvl gear restricted as well. The only reason people want gear restricted is so they have one more thing they can lord over "casuals". Casuals getting gear doesn't impact hardcore players' playtime whatsoever because they will likely never play with someone who isn't a hardcore player.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    We had that in TBC for the most part. There was no catch-up gear except for the occasional badge item you could buy. If you wanted to gear up, you had to do normal dungeons, then heroic, then T4 raids, then T5 raids, then T6 raids.
    PVP gear was the true catch up in TBC. I was maybe 12yo when finally leveled to max, in last 4 months of TBC. Just did bgs for a week or so and I was in full epics comparable to T5 is it? Or T4?
    Then joined a pug for kara and we demolished it. Can barely remember anything about that.
    Last edited by kukkamies; 2021-05-18 at 09:23 AM.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by kukkamies View Post
    PVP gear was the true catch up in TBC. I was maybe 12yo when finally leveled to max, in last 4 months of TBC. Just did bgs for a week or so and I was in full epics comparable to T5 is it? Or T4?
    Then joined a pug for kara and we demolished it. Can barely remember anything about that.
    PvP gear wasn't good catch up gear because you didn't get enough hit chance to hitcap against raid bosses. It was fine to use PvP gear for the occasional slot where you didn't get lucky with PvE drops. Being full PvP geared in a raid made you rather weak, though. It only really worked out for you because you got S3 gear, which was the equivalent of T6 and went into T4 content with it.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Yeah that's not true at all. Unless you're lucky enough to get on a guild team, your gear progression essentially stops entirely at a certain point. LFG is filled with people expecting ridiculous ilvls for content like normal raids. The fact that you think it's so easy to just participate in higher end activity shows you either don't play the same game or have gotten really fortunate with your guild.
    Yes I am in a guild, a casual raiding one. Is that something special these days? What stops you from joining one too?

    However if you expect that just being in a guild means you get gear left and right for free then that is nonesense. If you want to be invited into high-level M+ runs even with the guild then you need to prove yourself capable of doing it, sure, people will help out but if you keep messing their keys then they won't want to run with you anymore, even if you are in the same guild.

    But apart from that, I am at the moment gearing up a new character pretty much on my own. 195 atm mostly from Coveneant gear and the one legendary. I have joined several Normal Raid run this week with no problem. Usually they expect 185 to 190 gear which is easily attainable even solo. Sadly most of these runs ended in failure because halve the group always expects that they get a free ride, don't need to know mechanics and don't even know the basics of the game (like "interrupts"), so what makes these runs frustrating is people that do not want to put in effort.

    Finally, ALL gear progression ends at some point. No matter if you are competitive or not. My main is 226, there is basically no way to get past this limit. The difference is that I am not CHOOSING to stay at this limit, it's the hard cap for this patch, give or take an ilvl or two.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    And it IS a lot of people unsubbing. Because the gear progression in Shadowlands is utter garbage. Nobody is going to want to play a game where they will likely never increase their character's power until the next patch.
    You people are just not getting tired of claiming this, are you? First of all:

    YOU. DO. NOT. HAVE. THE. SUB. NUMBERS! NOONE. OUTSIDE. OF. BLIZZARD. DOES.

    Meaning you do not have a friggin clue if "a lot" of people are unsubbing, you just WANT this to be true, because it would validate your grievances.

    Secondly:

    Even if that was true, then you have not the slightest clue if it is because of the gear issue. As all the other people that use this fake argument you just take whatever your issue with the game is and blow it up as the one and only reason why people are unsubbing and thus it proves you right. It's an amazingly foolish way to argue.
    It's completely normal that a huge part of the playerbase unsubs after the first patch. Many just come to play the story, then leave until the next patch. That is expected. Others might have unsubbed because the content draught we experience atm. The possible reasons are endless and 99% of them have nothing to do with your problems.

    So, in general, I would say stay away from this argument, using it just shows that you understand very little about the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    It's a myth huh? Tell me why the majority of the playerbase really only does LFR then.
    Again, where are you getting these numbers? You just claim there is this majority but it only exists in your head to support your own assumptions. While I know many people are doing LFR I would never assume they do that exclusively. Why? Because it is friggin aweful. People that do that for fun must have a strong masochistic streak.
    The complete lack of effort and understanding people display in that game mode is amazing. It is clear that people only do that mode when they can't be arsed to put effort into their gameplay and the result is an extremly painful experience for everyone involved.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    PvP gear wasn't good catch up gear because you didn't get enough hit chance to hitcap against raid bosses. It was fine to use PvP gear for the occasional slot where you didn't get lucky with PvE drops. Being full PvP geared in a raid made you rather weak, though. It only really worked out for you because you got S3 gear, which was the equivalent of T6 and went into T4 content with it.
    I see. Should still be a lot better than going for heroics or T4 for catch up. Normals are just useless very quick. Badge gear I don't remember at all how good it was or if it was any good.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    No but certainly you can give them things to work for no?

    For people who struggle through normal dungeons completing heroics would be a meaningful personal achievement to them no?

    Why then does their seem to be this expectation to over gear them to the point it is painfully clear they didn't overcome anything but simply out geared it?
    I'd say WoW has way WAAAY more casual things to do than high end. High tier M+, PvP and Mythic Raids are about the only thing to do at cutting edge. For the casual tho you have TONS of raids you can farm for just seeing them, collecting mounts and transmog, farming in Pandaria, questchains that you haven't experienced etc etc etc. There is a metric ton of content in comparison that you can do, as opposed to a player pushing high end content. And every bit of this content has some convoluted achievement connected to it. So don't go yapping about stuff not being there.
    "DIE, INSECT!" - words to live by

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Yeah that's not true at all. Unless you're lucky enough to get on a guild team, your gear progression essentially stops entirely at a certain point. LFG is filled with people expecting ridiculous ilvls for content like normal raids. The fact that you think it's so easy to just participate in higher end activity shows you either don't play the same game or have gotten really fortunate with your guild.

    And it IS a lot of people unsubbing. Because the gear progression in Shadowlands is utter garbage. Nobody is going to want to play a game where they will likely never increase their character's power until the next patch.
    There are thousands of guilds. Normal and heroic raids are both relatively easy and have flexible size restrictions unlike pre-WoD era. Getting into a raiding team has been made so much easier than before, if you aren't raiding mythic. There are guilds that literally just fill their rosters with everyone and then organise raids for those who wants it. It has nothing to do with luck. If someone is lazy to open the guild finder feature, its their problem, and not bad luck. You can fund guilds that suit your preferred activites, skill level, aspirations, timetable and etc. You don't even have to submit an application form like it was before.

    What do you expect of group finder for raids? People who make groups there want to roll through the place, nobody wants to progress there; or they make a group to get boosted themselves. Either way its completely out of their interest to invite undergeared or inexperienced people, hence the requirements. Imagine previously there was no group finder at all, but there was always a set of requirements for pug groups.

    Shadowlands gearing doesn't structurally differ from any expansion gearing - you do harder content, you get better gear. All the catch-up mechanics were new patch content and never got you above new raid tier ilvl. Your claim that people won't play the game where they will never increase their power until the next patch, is completely false because that's how people have been playing the game since the begining. There is always a ceiling that depends on your time/effort spent and content difficulty. My main is 226 8/10 mythic; I highly doubt that my guild will kill Sire mythic before 9.1, and since I don't need SLG loot - my character's power will not increase until the next patch (fortunately we don't have the infinite AP grind). I've been in that state for over a month, and I keep playing almost every day. And so does most of my guild, we just switch to alts, do other in-game activities.

    Honestly, don't be so dilusional and complain for the sake of complaining, make some effort and reap the rewards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    There are plenty of incentives in higher end content like mounts and exclusive transmog that there is no reason to make high ilvl gear restricted as well. The only reason people want gear restricted is so they have one more thing they can lord over "casuals". Casuals getting gear doesn't impact hardcore players' playtime whatsoever because they will likely never play with someone who isn't a hardcore player.
    1) It actually does in many ways. You'll get people in 226 ilvl who have never cleared hc raid or m+15, claiming their right to be able to do that content, and wasting everyone else's time. Seen it before when people bought accounts with geared characters, managed to get into decent guilds and then completely fail every single time, making the rest 24 people pretty unhappy.
    2) Why do casuals need higher ilvl than is sufficient for the content they do, given that any type of content in wow gives higher ilvl than what is enough to do that type of activity?? Not a single casual has given any response. Because they don't have a reason, they just want it. Player power progression? Get into the content that gives those rewards
    3) Gear is a raider's salary. They are rewarded with better gear for beating content. Everyone get paid for their skills and effort. A restaurant chef can't be paid same as delivery boy or a burger-flipper. Having end-game players and solo questers wear the same ilvl, will simply make all of effort made completely obsolete and will ruin end-game as we know it. I can tell you that cosmetic rewards aren't even remotely enough to keep players progressing, most people that I have played with don't care about those at all. Even more so, no regular raider will even stop to think that he has higher ilvl than the casuals around him doing the same world quest. We're just happy that we get more powerful by defeating harder content. There are jackassese here and there, but most don't give a shit.

  20. #180
    Because companies will always remain successful when alienating 85% of your paying player-base.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    That's what Mythic+ is. A really accessible way to get gear on the level of a mythic raider/gladiator.

    If you can't do a Mythic+ you don't need ilvl 220 gear. Normal raid is enough.
    Thank God we have guys like this making our decisions.

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