Why is it alright to diminish the experience of non competitive players?

[Lochton]

If you are above the minimum required age and you actually play the game you wont struggle with normal, hc og mythic dungeons. This issue doesnt exist

Interesting. So you are saying the concerns of players less skilled then yourself do no warrant attention?

He can be right, though, @Crimson Spears. They won't all struggle but he might miss the point where there are people not interested in said content. And sadly, some people mark people who hold no interest in the main instanced content (Arenas, Raiding, M+) as 'less skilled'.

[Wuusah]

He can be right, though, @Crimson Spears. They won't all struggle but he might miss the point where there are people not interested in said content. And sadly, some people mark people who hold no interest in the main instanced content (Arenas, Raiding, M+) as 'less skilled'.

And rightfully so. You don’t get good at a game if you don’t push yourself into difficult content. You don’t get good at anything in life if you always stay in your comfort zone. Players who don’t do difficult content for whatever reason are not as skilled as players who do. You don’t just get born with skill.

[Lochton]

And rightfully so. You don’t get good at a game if you don’t push yourself into difficult content. You don’t get good at anything in life if you always stay in your comfort zone. Players who don’t do difficult content for whatever reason are not as skilled as players who do. You don’t just get born with skill.

Sooo... by your statement.. you lose skill/experience by not being interested in the arena, raiding, and M+ anymore?

There are more levels to players than that. You don't lose 'skill' because you don't play the arena, raiding, or M+ anymore. That is where my view is, there are many players who hold no interest or any interest left for those things, and just play what they enjoy, progress where they can due to various reasons unable to do mythic raiding, rated arenas or M+..

[MoanaLisa]

so aka everyone gets first place? That's terrible design.

Since you used a metaphor that has to do with racing the answer is: Of course not. First place goes to those who get there first.

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...it becomes very clear that they have quite an apparent disdain for most people who play this game.

Ion, before he became game director, once said that the only important things in the game were raiding and PVP. It was quite a thing to hear.

[Eazy]

Because there's no competition in doing heroic dungeons on time.

It's like in real life - the highest possible levels requires strict norms.
Imagine playing football with your friends on the field and then some kind of judge appears and yells "foul!" or they prohibits you from playing with friends because you guys don't have specialistic shoes or your pitch isn't big enough. Would be lame, eh?

The same in WoW - easier content is made for people who just want to have fun and aren't really considering themselves as professionals, try-hards, whatever.
Not saying you can't have fun while playing the hardest content, but the balance needs to be much more strict, because there every single percentage, second, DPS, HP, HPS matter.

[cparle87]

OP, what sort of a progression is there from heroic to mythic dungeons, apart from increased difficulty?

Typically heroic won't have all the mechanics, they'll trim a few. Either removing them outright or making one shot/wipe mechanics negligible. Like first boss in HoA doesn't have the circle you need to stay inside or you get feared. You have the entire room to avoid wreckage and dodge the beams.

[Raisei]

Ah yet another thread of so-called casuals demanding to be given gear for no effort. Thinly veiled by the argument that not being given gear for free is "dimishing experience". Seems to be a trend.

The answer is very simple: Apply yourself, put effort into learning and you will rise through gear levels. Do not and you will stay where you are. It truely is that simple.

because tryhards thinks the game revolves around them.

I guess "tryhard" is now a another word for people who actually want to improve in this game, instead of asking for free gear huh? I have no idea how you people lasted this long in this game or in real life frankly.

[TheLucky1]

Everything you said here and in your first post is completely right, and exactly why I've moved on to FFXIV after playing WoW since 1.8.

The most hilarious thing is watching WoW players here scramble like "B-but you can't get the same item level as me by only running LFD and LFR!! You don't deserve it! You don't need it! Why do you want it???" (HINT: I want it because big numbers feel good, as I happen to be a human being), and yet I've been hard pressed to find ANYONE in FFXIV complain that dirty casual solo scrubs like me can get a gear level 1 point removed from Mythic raiders at the end of a raid tier.

Because my progression does not affect them. They still have the mounts, the titles, the shiny weapon bling. It's just that my only-queued-content ass gets to catch up to them. And let me tell you, this fact makes for some interesting DPS recounts sometimes...

Maybe there is a reason not everyone plays FF14 though?

Heroic and Mythic raiding is not worth the time/effort if you are interested in character strength mostly, the weekly M+ chest killed that prestige already and is far easier/less time consuming.

If you would put this also into open world progression/crafting i'd even drop heroic raiding at this point tbh.

I think the 9.1 shards of domination system together with maw touched gear goes into a good compromise though, i'd prefer this a lot more than the way FF14 does it, casual players get to heroic raiding power level outside of the raid while raiders get some more progression and stronger gear for inside the raid.

[potis]

I guess "tryhard" is now a another word for people who actually want to improve in this game, instead of asking for free gear huh? I have no idea how you people lasted this long in this game or in real life frankly.

Nah, they just like using the word for anything that argues against them.

Pretty sure if you want to go to the store 100 meters from your house, and he takes the car and you go on foot, he would call you "Tryhard" IRL also.

But yeah, the whole concept of "self-improvement" is completely lost, i dont really understand it also, how can you spend hours upon hours on something and never improve, even passively from just absorbing information around you without even trying.

[Revamp Man]

Because when those non competitive players praise systems that will hurt them just because they don’t understand the system beyond “dem elitists hate it” I tend to not feel bad

[potis]

Ion, before he became game director, once said that the only important things in the game were raiding and PVP. It was quite a thing to hear.

How is it quite a thing to hear when its the truth.

Just because you can do other things in game, doesnt mean they are correct things to be doing.

If i go to the nearest amateur team football field for jogging, am i doing the right thing? Its allowed when there isnt a match going on, same with people using ropes, or kids playing around.

Its a football field, its not a jogging strip, no matter how much i would love it to have the flooring for jogging, its a football field and that cant change.

WoW is the same, just because people are using it wrongly, doesnt mean they get an opinion about it.

If you are not raiding in WoW, or at least with the latest added systems, finish your M+ and unsub, you are simply playing the game wrong, or the wrong game for you.

[ClassicPeon]

Since you used a metaphor that has to do with racing the answer is: Of course not. First place goes to those who get there first.

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Ion, before he became game director, once said that the only important things in the game were raiding and PVP. It was quite a thing to hear.

I'm a bit confused at what the actual argument thats being conveyed in this thread actually is.

Is it that blizzard should make more non instanced content?

[Ishayu]

Because to some extent you don't get a proper picture of how something measures up against something else if they're not both utilized to their fullest capacity.
High-tier gameplay is valuable in most gaming genre's because that's where things are pushed to their limits and you get a clear view how elements of your game operate under such circumstances.

It should be weighted the most heavily, though not singularily so. If something is too hard for the average player to execute correctly, it may need to be brought down (though I personally am all for things like original Surrender to Madness, Combustion, Sub rogue in DS etc. that properly rewarded being a tryhard sweatlord and kicked you in the shin for being bad.)

Take a game like CS:GO for instance, low skilled players (me among them) find the AWP to be the biggest bullshit weapon in the game, but when you know the smokes and strats to play around it, it's suddenly a liability to have more than one on your team, if you nerfed it for the low skilled players it would be non-existent amongst high skilled ones.

See, you bring up a lot of the common arguments, so I'm going to respond to it because I think there's a very fundamental mistake being made here.

You are conflating and confusing the two meanings of "experience".

There are essentially two, perhaps more, meanings:

1) Having experience with something - that is to know and understand something well because you've done it a lot.
2) Having an experience - that is going through a sequence of events that have an impact upon you.

Obviously the latter will lead to the former - if you keep having an experience then that will shape you and make you experienced at handling it, and that's why the two different meanings got the same word.

Nevertheless, as a game designer, you must be able to look at them as two different things. The person who has more experience is not the person who appreciates the experience. The person who's very experienced at WoW is probably tired of the things he's already experienced, and so he's going to argue in favour of making it easier or faster with no regard for how fun of an experience it is to play through it.

And that's basically what's happened to WoW in a nutshell. The experience of being on the journey has been destroyed due to suggestions made by people who are already experienced with the journey and have no desire to go through it again.

I would argue that, in the case of WoW, these people should simply be entirely ignored. That's because the reason they want this is because they want to play more characters and therefore have more in-game identities, but one of WoW's core design pillars is to give you a persistent in-game identity based on your avatar, so players having a lot of alts is... well, it's not a problem, but it's not WoW's focus, and WoW shouldn't be built around it unless it can be done in a way where it doesn't mess with the experience of the player who wants to have the experience of building a character in the world.

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How is it quite a thing to hear when its the truth.

Just because you can do other things in game, doesnt mean they are correct things to be doing.

If i go to the nearest amateur team football field for jogging, am i doing the right thing? Its allowed when there isnt a match going on, same with people using ropes, or kids playing around.

Its a football field, its not a jogging strip, no matter how much i would love it to have the flooring for jogging, its a football field and that cant change.

WoW is the same, just because people are using it wrongly, doesnt mean they get an opinion about it.

If you are not raiding in WoW, or at least with the latest added systems, finish your M+ and unsub, you are simply playing the game wrong, or the wrong game for you.

It's shocking to hear because World of Warcraft's design pillars never mention raids. PvP? A little bit, but not arena PvP.

WoW is about, and this can be confirmed on the back of the game box:

1) A persistent open world with a massive number of players
2) A sense of personal identity and a community
3) Great combat mechanics
4) A constant stream of content

WoW came out with 250 or so hours of gameplay and a raid that took 2 hours to complete. WoW was not originally about raids, and saying it's only about raids shows a disregard at best, loathing at worst, for what WoW really intended to be.

If this is truly what our vaunted game director believes, then no wonder the game's gone to hell.

[potis]

WoW is about, and this can be confirmed on the back of the game box:

1) A persistent open world with a massive number of players
2) A sense of personal identity and a community
3) Great combat mechanics
4) A constant stream of content

WoW came out with 250 or so hours of gameplay and a raid that took 2 hours to complete. WoW was not originally about raids, and saying it's only about raids shows a disregard at best, loathing at worst, for what WoW really intended to be.

If this is truly what our vaunted game director believes, then no wonder the game's gone to hell.

Eh, this doesnt even make sense, since when advertisement for the common low IQ human being is to be taken for granted?

I assume i should start buying Herbalife products with your logic, and to make sure i subscribe to 200 MLMs because its in the back of the box.

But lets bypass it, even back then, the game was all about endgame, there is a reason there were "max level locked content" whether it was raids, or PvP Ranks, or Raids.

It was never about leveling, if it was about leveling, it would be the same as all the Asian MMOs before WoW that leveling took 2 years of grinding the same mobs over and over in the number of thousands, that had "raidbosses" in the middle of leveling, which was a design that the west literally hated.

So Blizzard did the correct thing and adapted.

I dont really feel like typing out the same stuff every 10 days on here because some person just discovered MMOs and their history of how they evolved, so i will stop here, what you believe is your side of things, you just have to know its wrong.

[MoanaLisa]

Just because you can do other things in game, doesnt mean they are correct things to be doing.

If i go to the nearest amateur team football field for jogging, am i doing the right thing? Its allowed when there isnt a match going on, same with people using ropes, or kids playing around.

Its a football field, its not a jogging strip, no matter how much i would love it to have the flooring for jogging, its a football field and that cant change.

It's a theme park MMO. There are lots of things to do. Lots of ways to play. The game is not one or two things.

What you seem to be saying is that if you visit a theme park where the two best rides are a roller coaster and a water slide then everyone riding any of the other rides is doing it wrong. That's ridiculous.

[potis]

It's a theme park MMO. There are lots of things to do. Lots of ways to play. The game is not one or two things.

What you seem to be saying is that if you visit a theme park where the two best rides are a roller coaster and a water slide then everyone riding any of the other rides is doing it wrong. That's ridiculous.

Because you are doing the mistake of assuming that the other things are "rides" when they arent, they are the rest things a theme park has.

WoW Classic even showcased it the last 2 years, Vanilla and original WoW had nothing to do apart from raiding, cause its the original design.

The rides are the raid tiers which after a few expansion it became general content based around gear chasing, PvP Ranks/Rating (not PvP itself) and M+ in terms of 2015 and after, not the extra stuff Blizzard adds to take your money on the way from ride to ride, like a hot dog stand or a restaurant.

Have they added a couple more ways ? Sure, but in general for 2021, there are 3 rides, Raiding, M+, and Arena/RBG ranks, everything else is irrelevant food courts and playgrounds and gift shops.

[Wuusah]

Sooo... by your statement.. you lose skill/experience by not being interested in the arena, raiding, and M+ anymore?

There are more levels to players than that. You don't lose 'skill' because you don't play the arena, raiding, or M+ anymore. That is where my view is, there are many players who hold no interest or any interest left for those things, and just play what they enjoy, progress where they can due to various reasons unable to do mythic raiding, rated arenas or M+..

If you don’t do difficult content then you won’t get good at the game. Difficult content is M+, raids and rated PvP.
It doesn’t take skill to do world quests. It doesn’t take skill to farm old expansion mounts. And it won’t hone your skill to do that. That’s why it’s called skill and not a talent or a gift. You need to learn it and you need to hone it or you will inevitably lose it.

People here are basically demanding the highest ilvl gear for logging in and playing flappy bird. Absolutely ridiculous.

[Lochton]

If you don’t do difficult content then you won’t get good at the game. Difficult content is M+, raids and rated PvP.
It doesn’t take skill to do world quests. It doesn’t take skill to farm old expansion mounts. And it won’t hone your skill to do that. That’s why it’s called skill and not a talent or a gift. You need to learn it and you need to hone it or you will inevitably lose it.

Eh, do not believe you lose skill by not suddenly raiding anymore. Nor do I believe you gain skill much by becoming a raider/M+'er in one of two expansions.

People here are basically demanding the highest ilvl gear for logging in and playing flappy bird. Absolutely ridiculous.

Eh, not what I have seen, at all. That is just you making a panic argument - unless you have an honest non-sarcastic quote somewhere.

[Crimson Spears]

Because there's no competition in doing heroic dungeons on time.

It's like in real life - the highest possible levels requires strict norms.
Imagine playing football with your friends on the field and then some kind of judge appears and yells "foul!" or they prohibits you from playing with friends because you guys don't have specialistic shoes or your pitch isn't big enough. Would be lame, eh?

The same in WoW - easier content is made for people who just want to have fun and aren't really considering themselves as professionals, try-hards, whatever.
Not saying you can't have fun while playing the hardest content, but the balance needs to be much more strict, because there every single percentage, second, DPS, HP, HPS matter.

Is a game that offers you absurdly powerful items in a situation they are clearly not designed for a fun game to most people? Is an rpg that randomly gives you a end game weapon in the first level good design?

I find this an odd argument ... its not considered competitive so it should have zero concern for balance at all?

[Wuusah]

Eh, do not believe you lose skill by not suddenly raiding anymore. Nor do I believe you gain skill much by becoming a raider/M+'er in one of two expansions.


Eh, not what I have seen, at all. That is just you making a panic argument - unless you have an honest non-sarcastic quote somewhere.

What do you think is “skill”?