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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Actually it's quite easy, it just depends on which group you want to favour as a dev.
    Then as @anon5123 said, its NOT easy - not if their goal is to try and please everyone. By favoring one group, you risk alienating the rest, and im sure you are smart enough to know that, so im really not sure why you think it is "easy".
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.

  2. #62
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Then as @anon5123 said, its NOT easy - not if their goal is to try and please everyone. By favoring one group, you risk alienating the rest, and im sure you are smart enough to know that, so im really not sure why you think it is "easy".
    The potential risk of alienating a casual player is far greater and more likely to result in that player leaving and never coming back. Alienating a hardcore player is far less likely to do so. And no im not getting into the definition of casual vs hardcore again, just understand that the implications of those words as they actually have any shared meaning in the English language would denote that one group is significantly more invested and committed to the game than the other.

    So yea its actually really fucking simple...
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #63
    I care about the world greatly. The devs force me to not need to care about the world... big difference.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The potential risk of alienating a casual player is far greater and more likely to result in that player leaving and never coming back. Alienating a hardcore player is far less likely to do so. And no im not getting into the definition of casual vs hardcore again, just understand that the implications of those words as they actually have any shared meaning in the English language would denote that one group is significantly more invested and committed to the game than the other.

    So yea its actually really fucking simple...
    So after 17 years as one of if not the most successful mmo of all time, a genre defining game, that has maintained the same rewards structure since 2004 - now we need to suddenly fundamentally change those systems so we dont lose "casuals"...Im sure you can understand why so many people are highly skeptical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So after 17 years as one of if not the most successful mmo of all time, a genre defining game, that has maintained the same rewards structure since 2004 - now we need to suddenly fundamentally change those systems so we dont lose "casuals"...Im sure you can understand why so many people are highly skeptical.
    They needed to fundamentally change their approach years ago. If they had done that, maybe they wouldn't have lost 95+% of the people who have ever played the game.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences." -- Robert Louis Stevenson

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Well, ppl are very entitled in general. And this because the game gas become too old and too big to be seen as just a game. Everyone will try to push their own needs on it, whether they make sense or not. If you say you're gonna play basketball and need a team for it, here's what you're gonna get:
    - ppl saying you should provide teammates for them
    - ppl refusing to practice because they just want to have fun because it's just a game
    - ppl who want to play solo either because they used to have a team and now that they are older they don't want to invest as much time or because they have some form of social anxiety and decided THIS team game should be for them
    - ppl in crutches asking that there should be rules specifically designed for them
    - ppl who are so intent on winning they curse and spit at anyone making a mistake or blame their own mistakes on others
    - ppl asking that not just tall players should be chosen first because, despite the nature of the game, it is somehow discriminatory
    - ppl who are gonna buy themselves a team to get carried to one win because they want some reward or they think they'll get invited by others if they do or they just need a win to feel better abput themselves and will use money for that
    - ppl who hate basketball but will demand some other game be created for them so they have things to do, instead of finding an existing game that does what they need
    - ppl who arent interested in basketball but like to bitch about it a lot (maybe they used to play it in highscool)
    - ppl who want to make money off it at all costs, whether it's by selling teammates, wins, making a show or a farce of it on the internet, manipulating masses to change the game rules so they can win faster instead of spending whole year round practicing to be no 1 etc
    - and yeah, sure, ppl who will gather some friends and play and have fun

    Overall, game is big, ppl are super different and they all gathered here to make demands and not try to enjoy what this type of game offers over others they might enjoy more. Oh and make money off it, which changes things in a lot of ways.
    I think it's starting to become a rule of MMO-C that threads are completely solved on the first page. This post should've been the end of it, because it's completely 100% accurate.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They needed to fundamentally change their approach years ago. If they had done that, maybe they wouldn't have lost 95+% of the people who have ever played the game.
    You think its a bad thing that 95% of the people who have played wow over the last 17 years no longer play it? I think thats an astonishing retention rate over such a long period. Its also an entirely useless stat, and you know that. What is important is each expansions player retention - the fact some kid tried wow in 2004 and said "not for me" and no longer played it is in absolutely no way relevant to Shadowlands.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-05-17 at 12:22 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.

  8. #68
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So after 17 years as one of if not the most successful mmo of all time, a genre defining game, that has maintained the same rewards structure since 2004 - now we need to suddenly fundamentally change those systems so we dont lose "casuals"...Im sure you can understand why so many people are highly skeptical.
    Yes it's much more preferable to watch it slowly sink into irrelevance and obscurity while loosing market share so mythic raiding assholes can feel special. *shrug* I wonder if somebody on the titanic said well it was unsinkable why change course?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You think its a bad thing that 5% of the people who have played wow over the last 17 years no longer play it? I think thats an astonishing retention rate over such a long period. Its also an entirely useless stat, and you know that. What is important is each expansions player retention - the fact some kid tried wow in 2004 and said "not for me" and no longer played it is in absolutely no way relevant to Shadowlands.
    Of course spin the negative! Have you considered running for office?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Of course spin the negative! Have you considered running for office?
    What negative? If anything im "spinning" a positive - I'm saying its an amazing retention rate over 17 years. Now if shadowlands retention rate was 5%, then we would be having a very different conversation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    . *shrug* I wonder if somebody on the titanic said well it was unsinkable why change course?
    Actually this is far closer to a few individuals on a cruise liner running around screaming "the ship is sinking, the ship is sinking!" all because someone tipped over a glass of water.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.

  10. #70
    When OT said that he's "probably on the mark" I chuckled
    This is one of the worst diagnoses/ideas/opinions/whatever that I have seen for the last few years and it surely misses the mark heavily

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You think its a bad thing that 5% of the people who have played wow over the last 17 years no longer play it?
    That's the complete opposite of what I wrote.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences." -- Robert Louis Stevenson

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That's the complete opposite of what I wrote.
    Correct - fat finger moment - 95%, as you said. This is extremely clear if you read my post. Considering that number could be 200,000,000, 300,000,000 or even more, i think retaining 5% of the players over almost 2 decades is astonishing, dont you agree?

    When discussing the current state of the game, its important to look at statistics and data that represent exactly that - the current state of the game. That someone played vanilla and said "not for me" is in no way relevant to SL. The retention data for SHADOWLANDS is what is important.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-05-17 at 12:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Correct - fat finger moment - 95%, as you said. This is extremely clear if you read my post. Considering that number could be 200,000,000, 300,000,000 or even more, i think retaining 5% of the players over almost 2 decades is astonishing, dont you agree?
    No, I don't think it's all that great. I think they could have done much better had they not been so stubborn. I think the franchise could be in much healthier condition if they had made different decisions. Consider how, say, Call of Duty has done over the same time period.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences." -- Robert Louis Stevenson

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    No, I don't think it's all that great. I think they could have done much better had they not been so stubborn. I think the franchise could be in much healthier condition if they had made different decisions. Consider how, say, Call of Duty has done over the same time period.
    You think there are more than 5% of the players who played CoD back in 2003, or any of the subsequent releases, still play? Where are you getting this data from? Also, I certainly hope you are not using just warzone to form that conclusion, its entirely F2P, and is spread across multiple platforms.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    WoW is NOT a lobby MMO, it is treated like such, doesn't make it such.
    You've got that backward. That you treat it as something else, doesn't change that it is a lobby mmo.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    No, I don't think it's all that great. I think they could have done much better had they not been so stubborn. I think the franchise could be in much healthier condition if they had made different decisions. Consider how, say, Call of Duty has done over the same time period.
    I find it hilarious that a lot of people hate Activision and its influence on Blizzard since 2008 while you are arguing, to some degree, that Blizzard should have been more like Activision and took a path similar to Call of Duty. You don't typically see people wanting to have a treadmill of similar content released year after year.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalam the Venom View Post
    Don't use year 2005-2008 MMORPG mindset towards 2021 WoW.

    The way people made or played games back in 2006-2008 is long dead.

    Time to move on
    That may be part of the issue tbh. This demand for games to become lobby-oriented so people could get in and out quickly removed a lot of the social / worldbuilding aspects. People are no busier today than they were in the late 90's early 2000's. You personally may be, but the average adult is no busier than they were.

    So really caving to the rapid appeasement model to satisfy the masses is really just pandering to the lowest common denominators, aka wow players.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    You've got that backward. That you treat it as something else, doesn't change that it is a lobby mmo.
    Lol. You do realize you just describe the rational for why you and others think WoW is a lobby MMO. Because you treat it that way doesn't mean it is the case and WoW is still far from a lobby MMO. Which zone is the lobby? Dalaran? IF? Stormwind? Revendreth? Oribos?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You think there are more than 5% of the players who played CoD back in 2003, or any of the subsequent releases, still play?
    Given that sales of CoD games have increased since then, but WoW's subs have declined substantially from the peak, the retention is probably better than WoW's.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences." -- Robert Louis Stevenson

  20. #80
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    That may be part of the issue tbh. This demand for games to become lobby-oriented so people could get in and out quickly removed a lot of the social / worldbuilding aspects. People are no busier today than they were in the late 90's early 2000's. You personally may be, but the average adult is no busier than they were.

    So really caving to the rapid appeasement model to satisfy the masses is really just pandering to the lowest common denominators, aka wow players.
    Adapting your product to the actual playerbase, instead of the one you wish you had, is just common sense. Even if you call it "lowest common denominator" or other fancy names that make you feel superior somehow.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy.

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