WoW Desperately Needs Some Kind of a Roundtable Between Devs and Players

[Dracullus]

OP is what happens when circlejerk spiral out of proportion. You call Asmon/Bellurar toxic but looks like you are influenced by them. This game has almost 17 years and last year broke record for PC sales, no world is not ending cause you are bored after playing same game for years.

What we need is new content, not some big conference about fundamentals of WoW. It's not hard to break something that has flaws, but is working. So I rather see devs focus on polishing 9.1 right now.

[Queen of Hamsters]

MOP development was when ghostcrawler was around and the devs were the most active interacting and communicating with the community they've ever been.

Literally the opposite of what you're saying.

Lol, the playerbase did NOT shape that expansion.

If they had, the idea would've been abandoned with the reaction to the first trailer. Like it or not, but expansions are not shit that happens from week-to-week, they plan for them years ahead. Interacting and communicating =/= players design the game with every social media post.

Legion, BfA and SL were results of player engagement and feedback following WoD. Legion was still managable and I could enjoy it, BfA and SL? Not so much. Feedback from Challenge Modes lead into M+, that alone to me invalidates the value of players having a say.

[Kralljin]

I dont think thats fair. I think they're actually quite competent just grossly misguided and given far too much freedom.

It is fair, no one told those people to come up with something like Conduit energy and make a huge dance around it.

Also, "grossly misguided" and "too much freedom" are opposed to each other.

The only area i'd consider them competent is the raid & dungeon design, and going by your signature, you have a serious issue with focusing on that aspect.

[munkeyinorbit]

...
Ion scheduled an interview with Preach a couple weeks ago and the perception was that he came away feeling incredibly out-of-touch with the community. People coming away with an even more negative view of the game after an interview is a rarity. I don't mind Ion he's a good dude but there needs to be a connection established again and faith and good will restored for 10.0.
...

This here. This is the biggest problem with the game. There is a disconnect between players and reality. There is proof that the difference in gear per ilvl is approx 1% per ilvl. It hasn't changed since WotLK. But the narrative from players seems to be "nah man. That's not true. I get Uber stomped all the time. There has never been as big a gap in gear as there is now." The sad truth is that the wow population is aging. You are simply not as good at the game anymore. The reason why you get stomped all the time is skill. This reaction to this interview is players not wanting to accept the fact that after playing the game for a decade or more, they simply are not good at it. I do well for what I play. Class doesn't matter, in most situations I will be competitive and be top three dps in raids or top my M+ run. But you put me in a Mythic raid or with people that are just 5 ilvls above me? They will fucking destroy me. They should only beat me by 5% or so of we went class v class. It's because I'm older, I'm not as good as I use to be, and my attention span is shot. As long as players won't accept simple truths, why should Ion even address their concerns at all.

[Mojo03]

Lol, the playerbase did NOT shape that expansion.

If they had, the idea would've been abandoned with the reaction to the first trailer. Like it or not, but expansions are not shit that happens from week-to-week, they plan for them years ahead. Interacting and communicating =/= players design the game with every social media post.

Legion, BfA and SL were results of player engagement and feedback following WoD. Legion was still managable and I could enjoy it, BfA and SL? Not so much. Feedback from Challenge Modes lead into M+, that alone to me invalidates the value of players having a say.

And from the data they gathered they believed Pandaren were way more popular and wanted by the community then they ended up being. There are numerous interviews and articles where they admit this.

They weren't just doing their "own thing", they were doing what they thought people wanted.

Furthermore, besides the theme having mixed reactions, the game is widely regarded as one of the best expansions. During the development of that game and its life cycle is when GC was around and the devs were interacting with the community more than they've ever been.

You're really naive enough that you don't think that had an impact?

Why wouldn't players have a voice in the development of the game? It's a massive community driven game that were actively funding and is being made for us. It's not a personal project were funding and letting a bunch of people make behind closed doors and hoping for the best.

The rest of your argument just sounds like crap you made up in your head.

[Queen of Hamsters]

*snip of nonsense*

The rest of your argument just sounds like crap you made up in your head.

Projection. We're done here, I've been on top of news and community interactions enough to know what I know. Have a nice day.

[Glorious Leader]

It is fair, no one told those people to come up with something like Conduit energy and make a huge dance around it.

Also, "grossly misguided" and "too much freedom" are opposed to each other.

The only area i'd consider them competent is the raid & dungeon design, and going by your signature, you have a serious issue with focusing on that aspect.

It is not fair at all to be honest. The fact that you have a problem with that particular aspect of design doesn't actually define them as being incompotent.

Those are not opposing concepts either, they can both be true as in the case of blizzard they are. The designers seem to think that it's okay to throw the casual player base under the bus (the misguided part) and have evidently not suffered any repercussions for doing so (the too much freedom part)

Raid and dungeon design is indeed fairly competent (although you can make a case that some bosses are just poorly designed) but not just that. Art, sound, music, world design, network architecture and engineering. Theirs ALOT that goes into the back end of this game that people don't see that functions fairly smoothly.

[Mojo03]

Projection. We're done here, I've been on top of news and community interactions enough to know what I know. Have a nice day.

Lol ya okay dude. Or you're making excuses because you got crapped on and have nothing to counter any of it with.

[Kralljin]

It is not fair at all to be honest. The fact that you have a problem with that particular aspect of design doesn't actually define them as being incompotent.

It fucking is.

When they couldn't see the issue with Legion legendaries during Alpha / Beta, despite that both the community and even former WoW staff within Blizzard told them "This isn't going to work" and they still carried through their plans, there is no other explanation than incompetence.
When you add to this how long they dragged their feet to implement actual fixes, expansion was pretty much nearly wrapped up, sorry but when you need this long to implement obvious solution, you're stupid or just incompetent.

Should i also mention Azerite & Corruption while we're at it?
What's the excuse there?

Those are not opposing concepts either, they can both be true as in the case of blizzard they are. The designers seem to think that it's okay to throw the casual player base under the bus (the misguided part) and have evidently not suffered any repercussions for doing so (the too much freedom part)

Misguided implies that someone leads them (And if you now say that Ion tells them to, then i'm going to end this discussion right here) and calling the lack of repercussions "too much freedom" is stretching the term.

Art, sound, music, world design, network architecture and engineering. Theirs ALOT that goes into the back end of this game that people don't see that functions fairly smoothly.

You mean, that sort of stuff most people aren't talking about when they say "the devs don't listen to feedback".

Please, use some common sense, because it's painfully obvious to anyone interested in an honest discussion that those aren't the subjects this thread is about.

[RCA]

Not a horrible idea but what chooses the representatives on our side? That’s the real question.

[arkanon]

Actually I think the best thing the devs can do is completely close off from the community - make the game they want to make. The players just need to go "hey, I like this!" and keep playing / start playing, or, "hey, this isn't my kind of game" and play something else. I understand some people are horribly addicted to wow, and to those people I would say its not YOUR game, take a breather - go play something else for a short while - drop your sub for 2-3 months, try some other games.

Im not saying "if you dont like it, quit" - thats to final, but I do believe there is a select group of the community who would benefit greatly from just logging off, letting their sub run out, and playing something else / nothing else for a while.

- - - Updated - - -

Not a horrible idea but what chooses the representatives on our side? That’s the real question.

This is the actual problem with the idea - at one point, Lore was considered the peoples champion and representative of the players - pretty sure that is not the case now, and for many, it wasn't then. This would be fine if it was a binary issue - yes/no. You pick one person for the YES team, and one for the NO team, and off we go. That is NOT the case though, far from it, so there really isnt any one person who could represent even a small sector of the community, let alone one entire "side", or the entire playerbase.

[Chuckadoodle]

This here. This is the biggest problem with the game. There is a disconnect between players and reality. There is proof that the difference in gear per ilvl is approx 1% per ilvl. It hasn't changed since WotLK. But the narrative from players seems to be "nah man. That's not true. I get Uber stomped all the time. There has never been as big a gap in gear as there is now." The sad truth is that the wow population is aging. You are simply not as good at the game anymore. The reason why you get stomped all the time is skill. This reaction to this interview is players not wanting to accept the fact that after playing the game for a decade or more, they simply are not good at it. I do well for what I play. Class doesn't matter, in most situations I will be competitive and be top three dps in raids or top my M+ run. But you put me in a Mythic raid or with people that are just 5 ilvls above me? They will fucking destroy me. They should only beat me by 5% or so of we went class v class. It's because I'm older, I'm not as good as I use to be, and my attention span is shot. As long as players won't accept simple truths, why should Ion even address their concerns at all.

You bring up an excellent point. Upfront I left the game at the start of 8.1. I was a Bear tank for a mythic raiding guild and we consistently finished each tier (never Hall of Fame or even server top 20 but we did finish). I had the realization that at 47 years old and non stop play since TBC, my reflexes, attention span, and ability to track what was going on during the encounter were all diminishing. It was at that point I stepped down and a few weeks later just stopped playing.

[Ringthane]

There is a reason why those streamers / youtubers are as big as they are and a big reason for that is that many people share their opinion or are interested in it.
I am not saying just listen to Asmongold ONLY, but is voice is equally valid to people like Tali/Evi, Belular (I have no idea how you can say THAT guy is toxic, compared to a lot of people I have seen he is very moderate and I'm saying that while I don't even like him very much for this attention seeking headlines and the sheer amount of Ads in his videos) and others.

Again, McDonald's sells millions of burgers. Does that make them prime rib? Nope.

[Zeek Daniels]

There is absolutely no reason for a roundtable. Why? Because blizz already has all the feedback they need from constant whining on forums such as this. The fact is they are not going to shift unless they start seeing significant revenue loss. Players have been complaining about shit for years and blizz doesnt seem to listen. A round table does nothing but get views and clicks. Its not going to change a thing.

[Fantazma]

True: 99% of the people on the WoW forums are not 100% satisfied with the game, and therefore thread their concerns with the hope that the Devs will hear their pleas.
Also True: 99% of the people on the WoW forums are 100% against players being able to give their opinion on the game and the Devs are the only sensible ones in this thread and everything they decide on the game we have to accept and if you disagree "this game is not For you".

Yes. We have a paradox.

[Soon-TM]

The problem with this, is that not every customer for blizzard wants the same thing. Theres people who want titanforging and then there is people who dont. So where do you draw the line on with what your customers like and don't like. If you don't like what blizzard is doing, move on to another game. They're not changing and show no signs of changing.

Exactly. That's why good devs have a vision of what they want their game to be like, implement it in a proper manner and communicate their views to players, whether they agree or not.

None of which is applicable to WoW, sadly. If Ion came on record saying, for example, "we want a hardcore-oriented, instance-based game, one where you will be unable to progress without a solid social network", guess what - it would suck for people like me, but at least they'd be being honest about their intent (which they'd certainly be entitled to btw).

[Osmeric]

Exactly. That's why good devs have a vision of what they want their game to be like, implement it in a proper manner and communicate their views to players, whether they agree or not.

And if the players reject the vision, the devs either change course, or become ex-devs.

[Soon-TM]

And if the players reject the vision, the devs either change course, or become ex-devs.

Ideally yes, but for some odd reason the big wigs in Blizzard seem to be immune to backlash. For example, Chilton presided over the longest drought the game has ever seen (5.4) only to be followed by what basically was half an expansion, one that saw an unprecedented loss of players - only for him to become lead dev in another project.

[haiyken]

Actually I think the best thing the devs can do is completely close off from the community - make the game they want to make. The players just need to go "hey, I like this!" and keep playing / start playing, or, "hey, this isn't my kind of game" and play something else. I understand some people are horribly addicted to wow, and to those people I would say its not YOUR game, take a breather - go play something else for a short while - drop your sub for 2-3 months, try some other games.

I agree with you. Blizzard should take back ownership of the development of the game, the community is too involved in every aspect of it.

Just look at a company like Nintendo and their IPs. There is no public beta testing, almost no demo (or so late in the dev cycle it's just promo), no communication between devs and players, and they can produce really great games loved by tons of players. They make games with a clear vision, and some decisions may cause friction with weird choices, but they keep producing best sellers. Most studios work like that, really.

With WoW and Blizzard IPs overall, there is no longer any distance between the players and the devs. I think, while it's cool, devs shouldn't make so many interviews with youtubers, explain lore during Q&As, etc. I understand it's their way to create a large community like with Blizzcon and community events, but I don't think it's either productive or healthy. Devs, now, are making the game in a way that it can be tweaked depending on player feedback but at the same time doesn't really want to change much of what they intended. It's a weird in-between that just doesn't work. Devs spend more time justifying their choices and it's just impossible to make everybody happy.

[arkanon]

I agree with you. Blizzard should take back ownership of the development of the game, the community is too involved in every aspect of it.

Just look at a company like Nintendo and their IPs. There is no public beta testing, almost no demo (or so late in the dev cycle it's just promo), no communication between devs and players, and they can produce really great games loved by tons of players. They make games with a clear vision, and some decisions may cause friction with weird choices, but they keep producing best sellers. Most studios work like that, really.

With WoW and Blizzard IPs overall, there is no longer any distance between the players and the devs. I think, while it's cool, devs shouldn't make so many interviews with youtubers, explain lore during Q&As, etc. I understand it's their way to create a large community like with Blizzcon and community events, but I don't think it's either productive or healthy. Devs, now, are making the game in a way that it can be tweaked depending on player feedback but at the same time doesn't really want to change much of what they intended. It's a weird in-between that just doesn't work. Devs spend more time justifying their choices and it's just impossible to make everybody happy.

Another point of interest with Nintendo, is they have taken HUGE risks with many of their main IP's and franchises. When Breath of the Wild was first announced, it was extremely negatively received, due to the graphics and "childish" look. That turned out kind of ok for them......Same goes with the earlier one which name i cannot remember, but they have taken some pretty huge risks with massive changes in gameplay style, graphics, and gameplay - have they all worked out? no, not at all. But some of those "risks" have given us some of the greatest games of all time.

Another non-nintendo related example is Resident Evil - if you had told me 10 years ago there would be a revival of the series, and a return to form, but that new game was going to be a First Person game, i would have laughed my ass off. That was a huge risk to take, especially with a series that had really taken a hit in popularity with their most recent main title release - RE6.