WoW Desperately Needs Some Kind of a Roundtable Between Devs and Players

[Kumorii]

but everybody can name examples of cases where you get more than 1% per ilvl, or even more than 1% for reducing ilvl. not sure how that makes people bad at the game.

Hmm? Such as?

all in all: it's a statement that's so broad it becomes meaningless. it's like saying the sky is blue and if you see something else get your eyes checked out, while in reality everybody can easily find IRL situations where the sky isn't blue.

That statement wasn't broad at all... pretty sure it specifically was talking about ilvl and stat distribution.

[shise]

I'm not a fan of shop mounts, but it's not a thing that gets worse every year, it's completely opposite. Lets compare current state with 6 years ago during WoD:

- 2014-2015: lot of shop mounts in game are used by Draenor factions, instead reputations and content gives you boars and wolves, only way to get shop mount is to pay directly
- now: new mount introduced every 6 months, 3 ways to get it - pay, loyality program (6 months sub) and gold (someone pays for you and get safe gold); mount situation in game is drastically different than ever before (just visit sites like simple armory and compare), we have shit ton of new mounts and most of them has shit ton of recolors; now very often it's store mounts that are considered ugly.

But that is my point. I think that you misunderstood or I explained it wrong. All that stuff should come from drops, reps.. etc.

That is gaming quality. But then companies lose the chance at profiting from it. Sadly the can is now opened, it will not close again.
Even new games have it.. New World, well that game is over even before it started, dead.

Ashes has it too.

[sam86]

the biggest problem of wow devs imo is they don't understand players
they give players pick orange or apple, they see most ppl pick orange, so they make more orange, ignoring that maybe at last half of orange ppl like pineapple but since they didn't offer it in first place they just picked orange instead
wow devs throw something, see what works better, work on it more, but they don't even consider throw something different or even listen to some suggests, heck even that example i made does NOT explain why blizz stopped making Suramar-like experience an amazing max lvl zone, doubt anyone hated it in Legion for at least their first toon? instead we got the maw, no competition worst max zone ever in wow history (before u say silithus, silithus wasn't only max zone, and EPL is one of BEST due to its amazing atmosphere)

[ClassicPeon]

There is a reason why those streamers / youtubers are as big as they are and a big reason for that is that many people share their opinion or are interested in it.
I am not saying just listen to Asmongold ONLY, but is voice is equally valid to people like Tali/Evi, Belular (I have no idea how you can say THAT guy is toxic, compared to a lot of people I have seen he is very moderate and I'm saying that while I don't even like him very much for this attention seeking headlines and the sheer amount of Ads in his videos) and others.

Tali is toxic as fuck. No way around it. Bellular is a bit sellout, he even admits it himself, but he isnt toxic in any way shape or form.

That being said the last few interviews havent been that great imo. But i think it has more to do with the difficulties of the wow team during covid then anything else.

I really do think the team wants to put out more content then they are atm - and that is the major problem wow has right now

[Caerrona]

How to prove the doomsayers right and kill wow overnight.

Just because they don't listen to YOUR opinions on what should be in/out of the game doesn't mean they don't listen to anyone.

Just a recap of some of the shit people want

-unlimited grinds
-no grinds

-free mythic gear mailed on hitting level cap
-more restrictive gearing

-no world content
-no raids/dungeons JUST world content

-harder difficulty
-hello kitty island adventure difficulty nerf everything into oblivion

Multiply that by 1000000+ players and 1000000+ issues. Now please go get hired as a dev and have everyone call you shit cuz your not making THEIR wow.

[Yriel]

Oh look, a thread full of people that the game is catering to saying that nothing should change. What a suprise.

Saying that you, with zero game design experience, know what the fixes should be? Sorry, that ain't gonna fly.

Could you please define what "game design experience" actually means in regards to wow? And how some Blizzard employee that may or may not even play the game has more of it than some nolifer streamer that literally spends every waking hour in the game?

Why are you talking for everyone?

I agree with Ion on 99% of the things he says, the best part was literally "The math behind gear difference is 1% per item level, if you are seeing anything else its because you are bad at the game".

At least someone official came out and said it.

Whats that even supposed to say? To me it sounds like a "I think this is smart - but it isn't" kind of statements.
Does he want to say that gear is really not importent, only skill is? That everyone can do anything, regardless of gear level, you just need a little bit of skill?

When why have a gear progression in Raid and M+ in the first place? Why don't they do all their stuff in 196 gear? They just need a little bit of skill and git gud.
Didn't i hear all the time that raiders neeeeed that gear for their progression. Now suddenly gear is relatively unimportant, only skill is important? So what is it?

[MoanaLisa]

Yet another 'let the players have more say in the direction of the game" without accepting that this is precisely part of the problem. Another piece of the problem is the amount of attention that goes into dungeons and raids at the expense of other things which ironically is the sort of feedback that the devs listen to and agree with.

[Hellobolis]

Hmm? Such as?

dunno try some random things like replace a 226 epic vs a low ilvl legendary. good vs bad azerite traits. every tier that had "that" trinket. the people in mythic raid gear with a blue WQ trinket. heck even basic stuff like good vs bad secondaries, especially if your spec still has breakpoints. our holy pala nerfs his ilvl to wear leech gear all the time. and then ofc there is all that hilarious stuff rextroy did in the outdoor world.

honestly it's probably only tanks for who it's a generally true statement instead of exceptions galore, but even for tanks it's only been recently the case several years after blizz first started making that claim.

That statement wasn't broad at all... pretty sure it specifically was talking about ilvl and stat distribution.

like i said, it's probably true if you look at all players across all ilvls across an entire expansion on warcraftlogs as an average . but look at individual players and you will find regular exceptions.

[MoanaLisa]

Feedback isn't the secret ingredient to create a good game, devs with a clear vision and the skills to execute it are.

This right here. There is nothing really that feels like a vision for the game. Every expansion is more or less a standalone with a few narrative threads connecting them together. What it does feel like is a never-ending series of pictorial spreadsheets and theory-crafting because fiction writers are great engineers and vice versa. Right?

[ClassicPeon]

Oh look, a thread full of people that the game is catering to saying that nothing should change. What a suprise.



Could you please define what "game design experience" actually means in regards to wow? And how some Blizzard employee that may or may not even play the game has more of it than some nolifer streamer that literally spends every waking hour in the game?



Whats that even supposed to say? To me it sounds like a "I think this is smart - but it isn't" kind of statements.
Does he want to say that gear is really not importent, only skill is? That everyone can do anything, regardless of gear level, you just need a little bit of skill?

When why have a gear progression in Raid and M+ in the first place? Why don't they do all their stuff in 196 gear? They just need a little bit of skill and git gud.
Didn't i hear all the time that raiders neeeeed that gear for their progression. Now suddenly gear is relatively unimportant, only skill is important? So what is it?

No thats not what he is trying to say at all. Instead of telling you why dont you just watch the video though? I'm guessing that would probably considerably cut down on any future post needing to explain to you what this is about

- - - Updated - - -

This right here. There is nothing really that feels like a vision for the game. Every expansion is more or less a standalone with a few narrative threads connecting them together. What it does feel like is a never-ending series of pictorial spreadsheets and theory-crafting because fiction writers are great engineers and vice versa. Right?

Thats what 15 years of feedback has gotten us.

"we want new abilities"
"i have too many abilities"

ok... ehh. fuck. Non permanent new abilities each expansion then i guess?

[Kumorii]

dunno try some random things like replace a 226 epic vs a low ilvl legendary. good vs bad azerite traits. every tier that had "that" trinket. the people in mythic raid gear with a blue WQ trinket. heck even basic stuff like good vs bad secondaries, especially if your spec still has breakpoints. our holy pala nerfs his ilvl to wear leech gear all the time. and then ofc there is all that hilarious stuff rextroy did in the outdoor world.

honestly it's probably only tanks for who it's a generally true statement instead of exceptions galore, but even for tanks it's only been recently the case several years after blizz first started making that claim.

Yeah, so you take a statement about ilvl and stat distribution and apply it to gear that have other effects...
Same azerite piece bumped up 1 ilvl would be 1% increase. But up a regular item 1ilvl it would be a 1% increase. Bump up a legendary 1ilvl it would be a 1% increase.
The statement were strict about it being about ilvls... not one piece vs another piece or one effect vs a non-effect.

Sounds like you are willfully misinterpreting what was being said. You are taking in factors that doesn't have anything to do with ilvl in a discussion about ilvl and it's stat distribution.

[Caerrona]

Yeah, so you take a statement about ilvl and stat distribution and apply it to gear that have other effects...
Same azerite piece bumped up 1 ilvl would be 1% increase. But up a regular item 1ilvl it would be a 1% increase. Bump up a legendary 1ilvl it would be a 1% increase.
The statement were strict about it being about ilvls... not one piece vs another piece or one effect vs a non-effect.

Sounds like you are willfully misinterpreting what was being said. You are taking in factors that doesn't have anything to do with ilvl in a discussion about ilvl and it's stat distribution.

At least you were willing to try and explain it. I was half way through basically what you typed and felt the sudden urge to slam my face agaisnt a wall at how idiotic their statement was.

"1 ilvl is not 1% CUZ TRINKETS HAVE DIFFERENT PROCS"

[Lolites]

same principle as with every survey ever

1. even on this forum its not 99% against more like 55-60% at worst... wont speak about other forums as i dont go there, but i cant imagine any forum actualy is 90%+ people hating on game...

2. sure same principleas with every survey, and same limitation of results -meaning HIGHLY inaccurate...
couple years back before general election in my country there was HUGE survey, over 50k people (from under 3mil voters) and it showed one party getting enormous results, almost 60%, which would be first time in our history a party could rule on their own if it happened, and then in election they had under 6% and barely made it into parliament... yes, such difference is highly unlikely, yet saying "minority of people go to forums, and from them barely over half hate the game, so EVERYONE HATES THE GAME" is crazy...

yes, people hating the game on forum can suggest issues with game, or how people like it, HOWEVER, if you check the history, there were droves of people hating on wow in each and every expansion, WOTLK (which is considered peak of wow) included...

[Jazzhands]

I'm not. I visit multiple communities both from websites like MMO-C, r/wow, discords, dozens of streamers, the official forums, and sometimes other alternative cesspits like 4chan and the overall sentiment is just negative.

These players, even combine, represent a tiny portion of WoW's player base. The vocal minority, as they call it. It's a terrible way to gauge the over all happiness of the community because people are more likely to speak out when they're angry than when they're happy with the game.

[Lei]

You shouldn't take MMO-C for word. People on here are pretty negative about the game. And it's not like there weren't a channel for communication, we have the official forums where blizz is pretty active.

Lol. A couple of years ago maybe there was some "nEgAtIvItY" on mmochamp, but nowadays basically only the white knights are present here - wonder why. Speaks volumes about the state of the game.

- - - Updated - - -

Yet another 'let the players have more say in the direction of the game" without accepting that this is precisely part of the problem. Another piece of the problem is the amount of attention that goes into dungeons and raids at the expense of other things which ironically is the sort of feedback that the devs listen to and agree with.

Who wanted torghast (islands, warfronts, visions)? Who wanted AP farm? Who wanted shitty wqs as main focus of the outdoor world? Who wanted anima farm? Who wanted all of what has been problematic (bulletpoints) with the game for years? This "amg, players did this!" is the most ignorant thing someone could say.

[Hellobolis]

Yeah, so you take a statement about ilvl and stat distribution and apply it to gear that have other effects...
Same azerite piece bumped up 1 ilvl would be 1% increase. But up a regular item 1ilvl it would be a 1% increase. Bump up a legendary 1ilvl it would be a 1% increase.
The statement were strict about it being about ilvls... not one piece vs another piece or one effect vs a non-effect.

Sounds like you are willfully misinterpreting what was being said. You are taking in factors that doesn't have anything to do with ilvl in a discussion about ilvl and it's stat distribution.

willfully misinterpreting? i thought it was about your characters overall ilvl, the thing blizz made a lot more prominent in your character sheet a while back, very straightfoward. bigger number bigger damage.

you say it's about only some parts of individual items not the whole package and only about comparing same item vs same item. that's already 2 extra exceptions/complications you have to add.

regardless of which one of us "interpreted" it correctly, it sure seems it's not a very useful statement either way.

[Mysterymask]

Who wanted torghast (islands, warfronts, visions)? Who wanted AP farm? Who wanted shitty wqs as main focus of the outdoor world? Who wanted anima farm? Who wanted all of what has been problematic (bulletpoints) with the game for years? This "amg, players did this!" is the most ignorant thing someone could say.

I want somewhat difficult solo content that means something

I want something to upgrade my character outside of dungeons and raids

That's some of the general feedback they got..they made something out of that and the forum population does the "not like that have no idea what we actually want but not like that"

[Beuargh]

which players for this roundtable tho? "a myriad of different types of player type community leaders" is already bond to cacophony

it's not like every player agree on what need to change in this game.... so start with a roundtable with players and watch how it goes lol

if this roundtable should happen today, devs would sit there with smurk on their faces while watching players disagreing with each other.....

[Kumorii]

willfully misinterpreting? i thought it was about your characters overall ilvl, the thing blizz made a lot more prominent in your character sheet a while back, very straightfoward. bigger number bigger damage.

you say it's about only some parts of individual items not the whole package and only about comparing same item vs same item. that's already 2 extra exceptions/complications you have to add.

regardless of which one of us "interpreted" it correctly, it sure seems it's not a very useful statement either way.

It's to give insight on how ilvl and stat distribution works... ofc not everyone will find it interesting, but it's transparency for players. Some will value it, some will not.
players even ask for more communication and transparency so it's an answer to what players want. Maybe not you, but others. I personally find it interesting to know, not that I would apply it in a practical sense, but lots of information I have is mostly to cure my own curiosity and understanding of systems rather than practical applications.

What you do with the information is up to you.

[Doffen]

Lol. A couple of years ago maybe there was some "nEgAtIvItY" on mmochamp, but nowadays basically only the white knights are present here - wonder why. Speaks volumes about the state of the game.

- - - Updated - - -



Who wanted torghast (islands, warfronts, visions)? Who wanted AP farm? Who wanted shitty wqs as main focus of the outdoor world? Who wanted anima farm? Who wanted all of what has been problematic (bulletpoints) with the game for years? This "amg, players did this!" is the most ignorant thing someone could say.

Who wanted character progression like Path of the Titans aka Artifact Weapon(for a loooong time) ?

Players

Who then wanted AP to be tuned down and more optional, aka anima power?

Players

No, ignoring that players have influed their game, now thats ignorant.