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  1. #21
    Even assuming you are completely correct in your assesment there is still a wide variety of different players?

    Is the game developed by whims of players that don't want flying? What about the players that don't care about raiding? Is is developed by those that want a return to old talent trees or the ones that want a combat system more akin to a Action RPG?

    If the game is actually developed by players then those players are simply amazing at going for compromise solutions everywhere? They could have removed flying completely and reverted back to Classic world exploration entirely by ground, or conversely they could have designed the game entirely for flying and made the game more akin to a lobby for raids.
    The simple fact that they have not shows that there is no single monolithic group of players that the developers exclusively cater to.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  2. #22
    Current WoW is what you get when no one in charge has any idea what the game is supposed to be and desperately attempts to cater to every audience.

    Also, when they're trying to reinbrace the RPG in WoW but only can do so via a convoluted system, they wanted so badly put back some elements with the covenant system but due to its nature feel too artificial.
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Completly ignoring, that THAT old guard is directly responsible for everything wie complain about today. The merger with Activision, streamlining of content, MTX ingame.
    1.Blizzard had little say in the Activision merger as they were owned by Vivendi.
    Matter of fact, one of the major factors why Bobby became interested in Vivendi / Blizzard was WoW with its subscription model and none of the Activision owned studios had any experience in MMO's.

    2.Blizzard was against MTX, but after the merger (which happened in 2008 / 2009) Activision most likely forced them to add one.

    https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...nsaction-model
    This is an article where high ranking Blizzard employees speak out against MTX in 2007, yet two years later the cashshop was added.
    I somehow do not believe that they completely changed their mind within two years on their own.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-05-18 at 08:07 AM.

  3. #23
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Many seem to forget that WoW got here on the backs of big names, and the big names were part of what slowly brought the game downwards as well.

    Leaving a game to developer intuition only or to players in charge are both bad. There needs to be, sorry to sound cheesy, a balance between the two.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  4. #24
    Brewmaster Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Seriously.

    There's no real old guard left.

    Pretty much everyone on the Dev team now started out as a player.

    From Ion to Christie Golden, all of them were and probably still are players of the game.

    So every time you say "well the players need to be in charge." They are.

    Doesn't mean that I'm super thrilled with the direction of the game (narratively I feel it's far too focused on characters rather than making the world more amazing and letting us discover it.) Just that current Blizz is farmed from the community itself.

    As it stands every game studio with someone age 25 to 50 in it has WoW players whether current or former in every single level of development and management.
    Ironic that I read a thread yesterday that stated current WoW was what happens when you don't have a roundtable with the fans to decide the game and let the devs run it solo.

  5. #25
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    2.Blizzard was against MTX, but after the merger (which happened in 2008 / 2009) Activision most likely forced them to add one.

    https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...nsaction-model
    This is an article where high ranking Blizzard employees speak out against MTX in 2007, yet two years later the cashshop was added.
    I somehow do not believe that they completely changed their mind within two years on their own.
    The article you linked is about the game being pay 2 win and even plays with the idea of RMT Seaver’s it has nothing to do with cosmetic MTX and given that they already had some with the trading card game in 2006-7 there’s no reason to think they would be against more and that they were forced to have a cash shop after the merger.

  6. #26
    No, current WoW and mmorpg design is what happens when the wrong, unimaginative people are put in charge.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    "Current WoW is what you get when you put the players in charge"... It really depends on what type of players you put in charge. Current WoW is what you get when you put a hardcore raider with a hardon for systems and theorycrafting in charge.
    This post already wins the thread.


    I mean, there's an argument to be had about Blizzard listening too much to the players in all the wrong places giving us too many "convenience" changes that slowly erode away core aspects of the original game but I think this is generally more an issue with Blizzard's complete lack of vision rather than being too player focused in their development.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    This post already wins the thread.


    I mean, there's an argument to be had about Blizzard listening too much to the players in all the wrong places giving us too many "convenience" changes that slowly erode away core aspects of the original game but I think this is generally more an issue with Blizzard's complete lack of vision rather than being too player focused in their development.
    It seems kind of a weird take doesn't it? If a hardcore raider wants to raid why would they create choreghast,conduits,and covenants all obstacles to raiding...

    For that matter why would they nerf gearing in dungeons? It makes you think it really does...

  9. #29
    The Lightbringer Arganis's Avatar
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    Let’s get real. “Money” is in charge of WoW, not devs or players. And that’s what keeps it stale. Because the “profits” gotta keep coming in and the best way to do that is to avoid rocking the boat with drastic changes. Instead, forget creativity, focus on addiction mechanisms and keep the shareholders happy, while the players keep playing without even understanding why they still play this stupid game.

    It’s also why Blizzard has not come up with anything original in years and keeps repackaging its glory days over and over, despite having more money on hand now than it ever dreamed of when WoW came out.
    Last edited by Arganis; 2021-05-18 at 01:20 PM.
    Facilis Descensus Averno

  10. #30
    I believe the only well-known old guard left at this point is concept artist Samwise Didier.

  11. #31
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    It seems kind of a weird take doesn't it? If a hardcore raider wants to raid why would they create choreghast,conduits,and covenants all obstacles to raiding...
    That was supposed to be "casual content" (see guyz? This totally isn't another WoD! - Signed, Ion), but in true Blizzard fashion, they couldn't help to ram it down everyone's throat, casual and hardcore alike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    For that matter why would they nerf gearing in dungeons? It makes you think it really does...
    Because during BfA, hardcore raiders complained to no end about M+ loot "devaluing" their precious raids.
    Last edited by Soon-TM; 2021-05-18 at 01:31 PM.
    Current state of WoW lore:
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Who'd have known that the Domination guy whose aesthetics are 80% chains wasn't into freedom. Nobody could have seen this coming.

  12. #32
    Yeah and that's why almost every in-game decission is heavily tied with making more money. Big gamer brain right there.

    /s

  13. #33
    Dreadlord
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    Yeah nice try to blame the community after the shit show of sl released. How can community (now) be in charge of bad decisions from devs?
    Well, have a nice day xoxo

  14. #34
    ooh another thread you can trash Blizzard in and think you are contributing to the conversation.

    Blizzard r poop and they onli wont muney and they dont car abot me bcuz trhey dont do what i sey.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Current WoW is what you get when no one in charge has any idea what the game is supposed to be and desperately attempts to cater to every audience.
    It's almost as if WoWs millions of players are made up of many different groups who like other things. If you want to keep them all you gotta provide content for every audience.

    This is something more people should recognize: not everything in WoW is made/intended for you. Just pick the part you like. I for one like raids and mythic+ the most. I don't care at all about pvp, pet battles, cosmetics, world quests, lore etc. Still I am happy for every new battle ground/arena in the game, pvp guys get so few new stuff and still pay a sub. Give something to everyone so more people play the game, even if I don't use/like everything put into the game.

  16. #36
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatPandaZ View Post
    ooh another thread you can trash Blizzard in and think you are contributing to the conversation.

    Blizzard r poop and they onli wont muney and they dont car abot me bcuz trhey dont do what i sey.
    Stellar contribution, my dude/dudette. You love to preach with your example, don't you?
    Current state of WoW lore:
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Who'd have known that the Domination guy whose aesthetics are 80% chains wasn't into freedom. Nobody could have seen this coming.

  17. #37
    Please tell me when wow was good when the developers did it. I mean their are certain expansions when it was good. For me those was Wrath of the Lich King, MoP, & Legion. But the game is a damn disaster now. dull ass class designs. same o same gameplay with the same class abilities = BORING. I have found more excitement in FF XIV and to see wow take a nose dive and ass up concept is just sad.
    People on this thread only get pissed at you when you don't agree with them...FACT

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    "Current WoW is what you get when you put the players in charge"... It really depends on what type of players you put in charge. Current WoW is what you get when you put a hardcore raider with a hardon for systems and theorycrafting in charge.
    I think if they were actually good theorycrafters they would have never signed off on corruptions and covenants - well unless they are similar to the kind of firefighters that start their own fires.
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
    WoW:Shadowlands - Danuser's Divina Commedia?

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  19. #39
    Now that is a load of nonsense.

    I recall FFXIV vanilla was developed by devs that don't play mmo's. Maybe something like that is more up your alley?

    Honestly, you are hatin for the sake of it. There are many behind the scenes issues creating the current situation.
    What we do know is that the game has become primarely an instanced e-sports game and players are becoming aware of it.

    Nothing would make me happier atm than if they just cut off all e-sports nonsense and just tried to make a fun game for players.
    But, we know this comes from the higher ups and the devs might not have the freedom to make that game.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Current WoW is what you get when you put a hardcore raider with a hardon for systems and theorycrafting in charge.
    Hardcore raider with a hard-on for systems and theorycrafting here: Current WoW fucking sucks. This definitely isn't the direction I would have taken the game.

    Just because Ion has a hard-on for systems doesn't mean he and his team have any idea how to make a good set of systems for the game. They're pretty awful at it.

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