What would be the greatest punishment and also reward for Sylvannas Windrunner?

[ravenmoon]

For her actions in life, Sylvanas should have been rewarded greatly, she gave all she could to her people. She was a very good she elf. This needs to be rewarded. Our actions in life matter

In undeath however, Sylvanas is different, warped by dark powers, she against her free will, but she does so much evil too, funnily enough her motives are sometimes noble and in her own twisted way she is trying to do a good thing. However this Sylvanas should be utterly destroyed and severely punished.

What is the one thing that simultaneously achieves both?

Imo: it would be returning Sylvanas back to her original life or some form of modified Kyrian. It destroys the undead Sylvanas and as a big hater of life, inflicts the most severe punishment that Sylvanas could have wanted. Yet on the flip side, it gives back original Sylvanas a chance to live the life or if new Kyrian ensures a future that rewards her deeds in life..

Undead Sylvanas would utterly despise becoming a Kyrian or returning to being a high elf.. but the person that is reborn or restored would greatly appreciate and love that.

[Varodoc]

Sure, if you also restore to their original life:

- Garithos and his forces.
- The Royal Apothecary Society's test subjects (civilians included).
- Nathanos' cousin.
- The people of Gilneas.
- The people of Ambermill.
- The people of Southshore.
- The people of Hillsbrad.
- The people of Stromgarde.
- The people of Teldrassil.
- The people of Kul Tiras who died in the Faction Assaults.
- The poor animals that she butchered in War Crimes.
- The Lakeshire peasant who died for his family.

Etc. etc. etc.

[Smallfruitbat]

I kind of like that ending to be honest. I would however, make sure she is aware of who she is and why she has returned to life, instead of blissfully working her way through a new incarnation.

[Le Conceptuel]

I have difficulty imagining Hitler going to Heaven on the condition that he loses his memories, so the same applies here.

[Beloren]

I kind of like that ending to be honest. I would however, make sure she is aware of who she is and why she has returned to life, instead of blissfully working her way through a new incarnation.

Me too. It would be far more interesting if she remembered everything. But would that be a curse like burden instead of a reward? The psyche pressure on original Sylvanas would be enormous.

If Sylvanas was reborn Kyrian instead but without losing her knowledge. That would be the best result I think.

[geco]

mmm if it were that Sylvana lives if there is a fragment of her she lives to continue serving as a shield of flesh for her people while the dead woman has to be conscious in her head but unable to do anything but feel.
And suddenly everyone starts attacking their people so they slowly die from various injuries.

then yes.

PS: They are still destroying the last interesting Pj of the Horde so simply killing her would be just as efficient.

[ravenmoon]

I have difficulty imagining Hitler going to Heaven on the condition that he loses his memories, so the same applies here.

There is a difference, Hitler was alive when he did those atrocities, like Arthas was, Sylvanas though, was undead... in life she was not like that at all.

So undead Sylvanas gets punished by ceasing to exist or locked up within alive Sylvanas or Kyrian Sylvanas, and watch with horror being alive - that's got to be the worse fate for undead Sylvanas right?

- - - Updated - - -

mmm if it were that Sylvana lives if there is a fragment of her she lives to continue serving as a shield of flesh for her people while the dead woman has to be conscious in her head but unable to do anything but feel.
And suddenly everyone starts attacking their people so they slowly die from various injuries.

then yes.

PS: They are still destroying the last interesting Pj of the Horde so simply killing her would be just as efficient.

I am along your line of thought on this one too.

[BrintoSFJ]

There is a difference, Hitler was alive when he did those atrocities, like Arthas was, Sylvanas though, was undead... in life she was not like that at all.

Undead sylvanas had full control of her actions as Arthas gave it to her. There was no leash around her neck. Everything she did is all on her, alive or undead.

Arthas had his sword constantly talking to him, constantly telling him to do this and that, imagine that for a single moment, no person would be able to stay normal like that. You can try to condemn him for his actions before getting the sword though.

However, I am sure you already know, blizzard is already hellbent on going your way. So there is no point in arguing.

[starstationprofm]

It could be argued that Sylvanas should not be punished for her actions as an undead since she doesn't have a conscience anymore and her soul has almost no compassion or love left.

[Arrashi]

1 (one) date with Mudmug in a restaurant of her choice.

[Nerovar]

How exactly is it a punishment for ""undead Sylvanas"" if all she effectively experiences is a fulfilling afterlife?

[Arganis]

Sylvanas needs to be released from her torment Her story just keeps getting darker because there’s no way out for her. Clearly, showing Sylvanas she was meant for the maw when she tried to kill herself at ICC was about the absolute worse thing to do. It’s honestly no surprise she’s been kicking and screaming ever since, trying to unmake the nightmare world that made her into a monster.

And to think there was any debate about whether or not Arthas belongs in the Maw... Arthas is probably the single nastiest character in all of WoW. He doesn’t even have the excuse of being a demon or some sort of void creature hell-bent on total annihilation. He’s just a narcissist sociopath who thought he’d rule forever.

[geco]

Sylvanas needs to be released from her torment Her story just keeps getting darker because there’s no way out for her. Clearly, showing Sylvanas she was meant for the maw when she tried to kill herself at ICC was about the absolute worse thing to do. It’s honestly no surprise she’s been kicking and screaming ever since, trying to unmake the nightmare world that made her into a monster.

That is a bad message. Renegades are not doomed to be bad. It's just the writers who wanted to make Sylvanas just plain evil.

[Aliven]

I have difficulty imagining Hitler going to Heaven on the condition that he loses his memories, so the same applies here.

That was actually interesting topic in news. Murderer developed sever alzheimer and basically forgot everything he done which put him in prison. Should he still be sentenced or not? He is basically different person who was changed beyond repair.

[Maljinwo]

Being written off the story

[Nerovar]

Sylvanas needs to be released from her torment Her story just keeps getting darker because there’s no way out for her. Clearly, showing Sylvanas she was meant for the maw when she tried to kill herself at ICC was about the absolute worse thing to do. It’s honestly no surprise she’s been kicking and screaming ever since, trying to unmake the nightmare world that made her into a monster.

And to think there was any debate about whether or not Arthas belongs in the Maw... Arthas is probably the single nastiest character in all of WoW. He doesn’t even have the excuse of being a demon or some sort of void creature hell-bent on total annihilation. He’s just a narcissist sociopath who thought he’d rule forever.

...And yet [9.1 spoilers] Uther's 9.1 quest line reframes the events of WC3 in a way that implies that Arthas was not responsible for his actions because Uther somehow failed to stop him/convince him.

It's almost as if the writer's are trying to undermine the concept of personal responsibility by reframing these stories in a way that makes the player believe these characters never had free will and the ability to make moral choices to begin with, effectively proving Sylvanas right in the process.

If this is truly what they're going for with the story then to me it just begs the question: who wants this? Who wants a story without moral agency where the characters are reduced to puppets? What's to learn/gain from a story that tells you that none of what you do matters in the end and the only thing that truly counts is how the world (mis)treated you?

It certainly isn't a story I'm interested in.

[Arganis]

That is a bad message. Renegades are not doomed to be bad. It's just the writers who wanted to make Sylvanas just plain evil.

I actually think Sylvanas is the most complex character Blizzard ever came up with. She’s ambiguous enough to spark a debate and that in itself makes her a good character. Especially in a world as two dimensional as WoW, where you’re pretty much either a total hero or a completely psychotic villain.

Personally, I quite like Sylvanas. I think her feelings make sense. She may have started as a renegade but descended from there in a way I think is a very believable way.

Her final persona as a hopeless (loveless) life-hating antagonist full of rage and suffering makes total sense to me. So does her plan to unmake the system that planned to send her ass to the maw for eternity, just for being unlucky enough to be raised into undeath by Arthas.

In my opinion the best possible ending for her would be to find hope again before she dies and fades into eternity. Sylvanas doesn’t need further torment, she’s been in « the maw » ever since Arthas raised her.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

There is a difference, Hitler was alive when he did those atrocities, like Arthas was, Sylvanas though, was undead... in life she was not like that at all.

So undead Sylvanas gets punished by ceasing to exist or locked up within alive Sylvanas or Kyrian Sylvanas, and watch with horror being alive - that's got to be the worse fate for undead Sylvanas right?

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I am along your line of thought on this one too.

Being undead isn’t an excuse there are plenty of good undead even those who went through worse things then sylvanas she is just as capable as Hitler.

[geco]

I actually think Sylvanas is the most complex character Blizzard ever came up with. She’s ambiguous enough to spark a debate and that in itself makes her a good character. Especially in a world as two dimensional as WoW, where you’re pretty much either a total hero or a completely psychotic villain.

Personally, I quite like Sylvanas. I think her feelings make sense. She may have started as a renegade but descended from there in a way I think is a very believable way.

Her final persona as a hopeless (loveless) life-hating antagonist full of rage and suffering makes total sense to me. So does her plan to unmake the system that planned to send her ass to the maw for eternity, just for being unlucky enough to be raised into undeath by Arthas.

In my opinion the best possible ending for her would be to find hope again before she dies and fades into eternity. Sylvanas doesn’t need further torment, she’s been in « the maw » ever since Arthas raised her.

Sylvanas Pre BFA. For me it did nothing wrong. Every time she did something "bad" it was a huge payoff for her people or because she was being coerced. Beautiful character

That is, if by killing a tree you save your family from winter, you are not evil.

Sylvanas at BFA and SW. It is an empty pj.

...And yet [9.1 spoilers] Uther's 9.1 quest line reframes the events of WC3 in a way that implies that Arthas was not responsible for his actions because Uther somehow failed to stop him/convince him.

It's almost as if the writer's are trying to undermine the concept of personal responsibility by reframing these stories in a way that makes the player believe these characters never had free will and the ability to make moral choices to begin with, effectively proving Sylvanas right in the process.

If this is truly what they're going for with the story then to me it just begs the question: who wants this? Who wants a story without moral agency where the characters are reduced to puppets? What's to learn/gain from a story that tells you that none of what you do matters in the end and the only thing that truly counts is how the world (mis)treated you?

It certainly isn't a story I'm interested in.

A blizzard mistake with his morals. It is that if someone convinces me to kill another person, we are both guilty.

But if someone tells me that if I don't kill her they will kill my family. There we can discuss if I am guilty or not.

For the case of Arthas. Arthas, Jaina, and Uther are all to blame for the end result. Mainly Arthas. But Jaina and Uther too. They let him do a purge or they didn't help with the Purge. The option to run was not morally valid.

It's like you see that a friend is taking drugs and destroying his life and you do nothing. You are morally guilty. (Not legally ... well Uther was also legally guilty)

[Arganis]

...And yet [9.1 spoilers] Uther's 9.1 quest line reframes the events of WC3 in a way that implies that Arthas was not responsible for his actions because Uther somehow failed to stop him/convince him.

It's almost as if the writer's are trying to undermine the concept of personal responsibility by reframing these stories in a way that makes the player believe these characters never had free will and the ability to make moral choices to begin with, effectively proving Sylvanas right in the process.

If this is truly what they're going for with the story then to me it just begs the question: who wants this? Who wants a story without moral agency where the characters are reduced to puppets? What's to learn/gain from a story that tells you that none of what you do matters in the end and the only thing that truly counts is how the world (mis)treated you?

It certainly isn't a story I'm interested in.

I totally agree. I tend to ignore all the ret-cons and dumbing down Blizzard engages in these days because they’re just ruining their own lore.

It’s just a reflection of the world we live in today, where nobody seems to be able to tell up from down anymore. Everything has become subjective and nobody knows what makes a good story anymore.

The lore was at it’s best in WC III and it’s all downhill from there. The way Illidan runs around like Zoro in Legion is the best example of that. We can’t have « heroes » who do bad things because that’s too complicated. Instead we have to live in a two dimensional world where « evil » only applies when you’re being completely psychotic and « good » when you’re a totally selfless schmuck who’s never had a bad thought in his life. It’s pretty fuckin’ lame.