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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Me too. It would be far more interesting if she remembered everything. But would that be a curse like burden instead of a reward? The psyche pressure on original Sylvanas would be enormous.

    If Sylvanas was reborn Kyrian instead but without losing her knowledge. That would be the best result I think.
    She would just not act in their will then similar to what Uther did. This accomplishes nothing. Maybe have her mind there but locked away so she observes her reincarnation working as a Kyrian but be unable to control any of it?

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Hitler didn't kill Jews, until he started, either.

    Just because Sylvanas wasn't bad in life, doesn't mean her unlife separates her from her life. There are plenty of undead who used their undeath for good and not evil. Sylvanas chose not to. She does not "deserve" a reward for deciding after death that life wasn't worth it.

    It's only because you are placing this barrier between "Alive Sylvanas" and "Undead Sylvanas" that you can even make this distinction. They are the same person. Undead Sylvanas exists because of Alive Sylvanas, every action done by Undead Sylvanas is no less a direct effect of Alive Sylvanas' actions. Separating the two can't be done, unless they actually do and separate the two. (Ex.: Undead Sylvanas is actually just a shade possessing Sylvanas. But that just makes Sylvanas not guilty of anything.)
    I think that's what Blizz is going to do- try to retcon dead Sylvanas as the genocidal fuckwit and alive Sylvanas as the hero of heroes who heroically did heroism and deserves the highest of praises. That's how they'll bake their redemption cake, set her back to the personality she had for all of 3 missions in WC3 and that nobody cares about except as an abstract.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  3. #83
    Blizzard's writing is already a joke but if they redeem Sylvanas instead of putting her down like she deserves it will be unredeemable. Kill her, let her stay dead and allow death to have meaning instead of it being the meme that it is.
    "Honor, young heroes. No matter how dire the battle, never forsake it."
    Varok Saurfang

  4. #84
    What if they will make her the new Arbiter? Spending an eternity either serving the same mechanism she tried to break, or better yet, actually passing a better judgement and doing good, like she was planning to.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Dellis0991 View Post
    "I just want to make her face beat up my hand!" ~ Some random player
    Feed her a knuckle sandwich until she gains a well fed buff, then kill her to remove that well fed buff.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I think that's what Blizz is going to do- try to retcon dead Sylvanas as the genocidal fuckwit and alive Sylvanas as the hero of heroes who heroically did heroism and deserves the highest of praises. That's how they'll bake their redemption cake, set her back to the personality she had for all of 3 missions in WC3 and that nobody cares about except as an abstract.
    I really don't think so. They've made a point, particularly since Sylvanas's turn towards darkness (well, more darkness than usual), to emphasize how, while the undead lose some of their emotions in the transition, they are still, when freed from the Lich King at least, capable of choosing good and controlling their own destinies. Every action after she died is on Sylvanas's soul as much as any action before it.

    The whole point of her Warbringers short is to show that the moment where she turned to darkness was not dying and being a ghost, but in those moments afterwards where she abandoned hope.



    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    facts
    god i miss WC3 illidan, who wasnt a villain but also definitely not a real good guy.

    He was against the legion, the scourge and all the other really bad dudes, but at the same time, he craved power and tried to save his own skin constantly. Thats why he was interesting to watch, its the reason the character became so popular in the first place.

    Now compare that to legions illidan, who willingly stayed behind to act as sargeras's jailer, therefore dooming himself to yet another prison for eternity, who screamed "the legions end is ALL I SEEEEK", and whatever else.
    I still maintain after the retconning to make the ending more ambiguous there is absolutely nothing saying that Illidan didn't, as soon as we left, try to destroy the bound Sargeras and take the titan world soul's power for himself. Or maybe he's just sticking around for the sweet satisfaction of kicking Sargeras in the groin for all eternity. Leaving it ambiguous was better for him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I have difficulty imagining Hitler going to Heaven on the condition that he loses his memories, so the same applies here.
    Given that there are Venthyr who have done worse than Hitler, I could imagine it in the WoW world......

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    facts
    god i miss WC3 illidan, who wasnt a villain but also definitely not a real good guy.

    He was against the legion, the scourge and all the other really bad dudes, but at the same time, he craved power and tried to save his own skin constantly. Thats why he was interesting to watch, its the reason the character became so popular in the first place.

    Now compare that to legions illidan, who willingly stayed behind to act as sargeras's jailer, therefore dooming himself to yet another prison for eternity, who screamed "the legions end is ALL I SEEEEK", and whatever else.
    You didn't play WC3 if you thought Illidan was against the Legion or Scourge(he wasn't against the Scourge in the manner that you'd think as they were technically a part of the Legion which is why he was) for any reason other than his own personal safety or vengeance etc or to please Tyrande thinking he could still win her over. What other "really bad dudes" was he against also?

    It still stands today even with the retcons that while one could argue against him being a villain, he isn't a hero and it's a bit of a stretch to even say he's an anti hero as his cause was really only his own and it wasn't even a notable cause. He only fought the Legion to save his own butt after failing KJ so many times. They also haven't retconned the netherwing flight and his interaction with them.

  7. #87
    Over 9000! Kyphael's Avatar
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    Being tormented by Venthyr Arthas for all eternity would be greatest punishment.

    Greatest reward? Restored to life but given immortality along with Nathanos so they can enjoy each other's company and make half-elf babies like her sisters?

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post

    You didn't play WC3 if you thought Illidan was against the Legion or Scourge(he wasn't against the Scourge in the manner that you'd think as they were technically a part of the Legion which is why he was) for any reason other than his own personal safety or vengeance etc or to please Tyrande thinking he could still win her over. What other "really bad dudes" was he against also?

    It still stands today even with the retcons that while one could argue against him being a villain, he isn't a hero and it's a bit of a stretch to even say he's an anti hero as his cause was really only his own and it wasn't even a notable cause. He only fought the Legion to save his own butt after failing KJ so many times. They also haven't retconned the netherwing flight and his interaction with them.
    aaaand where exactly does any of that contradict what i wrote lol?

    he fought the legion (for power and proving himself to tyrande, like i wrote in my post), until kil'jaeden came along and told him hes now working for him (thus saving his own skin, as i wrote in my post)
    then he fought against the scourge (as i wrote in my post), again to save his own skin (again, as i wrote in my post)

    and no. legion retconned him into having a vision of the legions countless forces and ability to be reborn, so he chose right then and there to do everything in his power to destroy them, no matter what anyone thinks of him.
    thats 100% not how he was in WC3.

    sounds like you either need to reread my post or replay WC3
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

    From the space that is everywhere and nowhere, the crooked shitposter feasts on memes.

    He has no eyes to see, but he dreams of infinite memeing and trolling.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I think that's what Blizz is going to do- try to retcon dead Sylvanas as the genocidal fuckwit and alive Sylvanas as the hero of heroes who heroically did heroism and deserves the highest of praises. That's how they'll bake their redemption cake, set her back to the personality she had for all of 3 missions in WC3 and that nobody cares about except as an abstract.
    But then it's not a "redemption." As Good Sylvanas, who has been in the Maw the entire time, literally did not do any of the things that would make her bad. That would be "Evil Sylvanas" - Whoever is possessing her corpse, and an entirely different being.

    At that point, she can't be "redeemed" because she is not the one who needs to be redeemed. Evil Sylvanas, who exists to do evil and has no interest in redemption, would be. We'd be SAVING Good Sylvanas from the big bad who has kept her captive the entire time, making her basically a princess in a tower needing to be saved - Which is HILARIOUS, because it'd literally ruin her position as a "feminine badass" too.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2021-05-23 at 07:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    aaaand where exactly does any of that contradict what i wrote lol?

    he fought the legion (for power and proving himself to tyrande, like i wrote in my post), until kil'jaeden came along and told him hes now working for him (thus saving his own skin, as i wrote in my post)
    then he fought against the scourge (as i wrote in my post), again to save his own skin (again, as i wrote in my post)

    and no. legion retconned him into having a vision of the legions countless forces and ability to be reborn, so he chose right then and there to do everything in his power to destroy them, no matter what anyone thinks of him.
    thats 100% not how he was in WC3.

    sounds like you either need to reread my post or replay WC3
    Sounds like YOU need to reread a post before calling my post into question......

    Hint: Where did I imply "you" as a specific. I'm not changing speech to be "one should" instead of "you" because you seem to be unable to understand

  11. #91
    The Lightbringer Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    she needs her ass slapped, for being so naughty

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Hitler didn't kill Jews, until he started, either.

    Just because Sylvanas wasn't bad in life, doesn't mean her unlife separates her from her life. There are plenty of undead who used their undeath for good and not evil. Sylvanas chose not to. She does not "deserve" a reward for deciding after death that life wasn't worth it.

    It's only because you are placing this barrier between "Alive Sylvanas" and "Undead Sylvanas" that you can even make this distinction. They are the same person. Undead Sylvanas exists because of Alive Sylvanas, every action done by Undead Sylvanas is no less a direct effect of Alive Sylvanas' actions. Separating the two can't be done, unless they actually do and separate the two. (Ex.: Undead Sylvanas is actually just a shade possessing Sylvanas. But that just makes Sylvanas not guilty of anything.)
    Is that the lore? The reason I place the distinction is because all this lore seems to actually make that distinction.. Did you read the BFA prequel book?

    I could be wrong, but while they are the same person, they are not the same person. We all know events can drastically change a person, not ot mention people can choose to change, in the world of Warcraft, magic is involved and can also change a person, now all of these combined? what do the writers say? They seem to describe undead forsaken has having lost something that has been replaced with something else.

    This doesn't mean they aren't capable of functioning with empathy or some characteristics of their former life, but they love to make the point that they are changed, and how much darker they are by natural disposition.

    But it's Warcraft Fleugen, the lore is anything but clear and defined on things like that and the creative team don't interact with communities to clarify or discuss things. As far as I know, it's legit to think of them differently - it's how they undead race is presented.. afterall this is why they are a race and not just part of the human group, right?
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  13. #93
    Death.


    .......minimumcount......

  14. #94
    With the new lore titbits on soul shattering of Uther, this is what I expect to happen:

    Sylvannas Windrunner's soul will be split in two. Her "living" side, and her "undead side". Her living side gets redeemed, her undead sides becomes the new jailor

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Sounds like YOU need to reread a post before calling my post into question......

    Hint: Where did I imply "you" as a specific. I'm not changing speech to be "one should" instead of "you" because you seem to be unable to understand
    and now you are not even making sense anymore. you replied to me, so who else woudl you mean specifically
    obvious troll is obvious
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

    From the space that is everywhere and nowhere, the crooked shitposter feasts on memes.

    He has no eyes to see, but he dreams of infinite memeing and trolling.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Is that the lore? The reason I place the distinction is because all this lore seems to actually make that distinction.. Did you read the BFA prequel book?
    I did. All it says is that undeath changes you.

    Which has not been shown to be true in any way, shape, or form.

    I could be wrong, but while they are the same person, they are not the same person. We all know events can drastically change a person, not ot mention people can choose to change, in the world of Warcraft, magic is involved and can also change a person, now all of these combined? what do the writers say? They seem to describe undead forsaken has having lost something that has been replaced with something else.
    But they have not said "That person is an entirely different person." Arthas "lost something" when the plague first struck, but it wasn't until he actually picked up Frostmourne that he was ACTUALLY under the sway of another person.

    We have not been given any indication that the Forsaken are under the sway of some greater power, or some influence other than their own personality. That makes Undead Sylvanas the exact same person as Alive Sylvanas - Just more jaded and cynical because she fucking died at one point. Dying would in fact make someone jaded and cynical.

    But it's Warcraft Fleugen, the lore is anything but clear and defined on things like that and the creative team don't interact with communities to clarify or discuss things. As far as I know, it's legit to think of them differently - it's how they undead race is presented.. afterall this is why they are a race and not just part of the human group, right?
    Differently how, exactly? As if they have no connection to their past self at all?

    Because if so, then no, that's not how undeath works. They also make it very much a point that Undead Sylvanas is Sylvanas. She has empathy for her sisters. She is in love with Nathanos. These are traits from her life which carried over into her undeath, to show she is NOT someone different entirely.

    You are ignoring the context clues which disagree with your point in order to satisfy the requirements of your headcanon.

    That is in fact unacceptable. Even if it is a common problem you have.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    There is a difference, Hitler was alive when he did those atrocities, like Arthas was, Sylvanas though, was undead... in life she was not like that at all.

    So undead Sylvanas gets punished by ceasing to exist or locked up within alive Sylvanas or Kyrian Sylvanas, and watch with horror being alive - that's got to be the worse fate for undead Sylvanas right?
    I don't think you get an automatic pass for comitting acts if evil just for being undead.

    It's a pretty big FU for all the dead night elves and citizens of southshore while Sylvie gets her second chance free of consequence. Her torment is due to not being alive, so having her locked up in a living body is not really a consequence at all.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-05-24 at 04:46 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Vampyrr View Post
    She would just not act in their will then similar to what Uther did. This accomplishes nothing. Maybe have her mind there but locked away so she observes her reincarnation working as a Kyrian but be unable to control any of it?
    But then they would either probably change, or she would be a "special" type of Kyrian agent.. i don't put that past blizzard. Another possibility is what someone else mentioned, her soul is split into, capturing the live part as in Sylvanas in life, and the dark part, undead Sylvanas, one gets her bliss or even a return to life, the other becomes the new jailer or something like that.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I don't think you get an automatic pass for comitting acts if evil just for being undead.

    It's a pretty big FU for all the dead night elves and citizens of southshore while Sylvie gets her second chance free of consequence. Her torment is due to not being alive, so having her locked up in a living body is not really a consequence at all.
    Wouldn't that depend on what the rules are?

    In this scenario, the Sylvie that caused the damage is being destroyed and punished, it's not exactly a free pass because the part of her that deserves a reward gets one.

    Given you can fragment it like that.. there is basis for you to do that in this whacky lore, aren't all undead victims?

    Weren't they all ripped from life and raised forcibly in what cannot be a while way against their will? Surely they and all the acts they commit lies at the hands of those who made them that way primarily.. because an undead is stripped of somethings they had in life, , not just physically, but emotions too.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Wouldn't that depend on what the rules are?

    In this scenario, the Sylvie that caused the damage is being destroyed and punished, it's not exactly a free pass because the part of her that deserves a reward gets one.
    And thus isn't the one who did any of the atrocious things that we currently blame "her" for. She doesn't need a redemption if she did nothing wrong. If you fragment her like this, there is no "redemption," there is just pushing the blame onto a new character who previously was not known.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

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