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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    just gonna point out we dont need the pantheon

    azeroth is slowly waking up

    - - - Updated - - -

    Melee dps spec

    flame scale:
    Two main mechanics
    Building draconic power
    Placing multiple DoTs onto the target and burning through them with a bigger ability

    Burning talon: deals fire damage and places a DoT on the target that lasts for X seconds. Generates draconic power. When empowered it places two stacks on the target and the damage and duration are doubled

    Scorching breath: deals fire damage in a cone leaving all targets hit with a DoT that lasts for X seconds. Generates draconic power. When empowered the targets explode upon expiration or removal of the DoT and the DoT spreads to anothe target for 50% damage and duration.

    Searing strike: an attack that deals damage to the target and removes one stack of all debuffs placed on them by the dragonsworn. Deals X% extra damage per DoT removed. Generates draconic power. When empowered damage is increased and it strikes up to 3 nearby allies

    Dragon rage: your body overflows with draconic power and for the duration your abilities are empowered. Requires 100 draconic power. Duration 20 seconds 1 min CD

    Dragon spirit: grants 100 draconic power and increases the duration of dragon rage by 50%
    No thanks.

    No more melee specs.

    Melee specs are an awful cancer on this game right now. There are far too many and far too little use for them, resulting in frustrated players.

    Next class needs to be ranged/healer/mail.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwimmerlaik View Post
    No thanks.

    No more melee specs.

    Melee specs are an awful cancer on this game right now. There are far too many and far too little use for them, resulting in frustrated players.

    Next class needs to be ranged/healer/mail.
    That’s where the blue dragon spec comes in

    Spell weaver

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Which begs the question as to how these "other" dragonflights even exist in the first place.
    As far as we know, they probably evolved naturally from other proto-drakes.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    No ALL dragons are sterile now.
    Until they decide to unsterilize them in a new expansion.

    Just like how Blood Elves were all fel-corrupted, until they cleansed the Sunwell and gave them blue eye options years later. They control the lore and story, they can do whatever they want in a future expansion.

    Dragon Isles is a magical macguffin. They could easily put some random Titan artifact there that 'reoriginates' the Aspects with their full power and lets the dragonflights breed again, for the purpose of defending Azeroth and fighting Void Lords in the future. It's setup for a united dragon army that they can slaughter wholesale without completely exterminating all dragons from the lore.

    Hell I can even see it now - Hundreds of years in the future, Wrathion, the eldest surviving Dragon of the 'Void War', tells tales of the sacrifice of the old generation of Dragons. The sterility, being prone to old god corruption and all the other bad shit goes out with the death of the old generation. All the known Dragons in the future would be a fertile new generation hatched from 'cleansed eggs' on the Dragon Isles.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-06-07 at 07:51 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by pacotaco View Post
    As far as we know, they probably evolved naturally from other proto-drakes.
    Most seem to have vague, hand-wavey origins with hidden black dragonflight caches and/or experiments. But yeah, it would have to be a pretty crazy case of convergent evolutions to get storm drakes... a case that would make the "elevation" of the core flights entirely pointless if this was what they were going to become anyway.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Until they decide to unsterilize them in a new expansion.

    Just like how Blood Elves were all fel-corrupted, until they cleansed the Sunwell and gave them blue eye options years later. They control the lore and story, they can do whatever they want in a future expansion.

    Dragon Isles is a magical macguffin. They could easily put some random Titan artifact there that 'reoriginates' the Aspects with their full power and lets the dragonflights breed again, for the purpose of defending Azeroth and fighting Void Lords in the future.
    So basically more cringe lore like in Shadowlands.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Until they decide to unsterilize them in a new expansion.
    Not to mention Wrathion's current activity. With the Legion and Old Gods done with, and as a long-term schemer himself (as long-term as a 10 year old can be), he has to be thinking about the longevity of his race. And the Dragon Isles seem like a really open concept for the writers to explore and provide a solution to that particular issue.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    So basically more cringe lore like in Shadowlands.
    Lore has been cringe since Cata. What are we debating here?

    If they didn't want to explore Dragon lore, they wouldn't have written Dragons to be sterile or the Black Dragonflight all be corrupted with Wrathion (and Ebonhorn) as the exceptions who are seeking a 'cure'. It's not even a matter of *if* they will address it in the future, but a matter of *when*.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-06-07 at 07:58 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    So basically more cringe lore like in Shadowlands.
    Eh, Shadowlands was 90% asspull, 5% token characters to connect to Azeroth, 5% fan service.

    Revisiting the dragonflights in earnest would be an actual continuation of existing plot threads. Continuing this narrative would not be a retcon - it's only a retcon when they actively disregard something that was already established. If dragons solve the issue of sterility, that's just a continuing story. If the writers say they were never sterile in the first place, that's a retcon.

  10. #50
    To me, the Dragonsworn class could be framed as an extension of the Guardians of Tirisfal with a dragon twist.

    Any class that has the abilities of all dragonflights would be a twist on a single Guardian having the magical power of multiple different Magi. The only issues that have been with Guardians is the potential of corruption. Blizzard has started addressing that with Wrathion seeking Medivh's aid and having created that potion that saved Ebonhorn in BFA. Medivh himself tells Wrathion you can't fix the past but you can forge a new future. And Wrathion, being as ardent a defender of Azeroth as he is, will probably take extreme measures like pulling off a 'Guardians of Tirisfal' style power transfer using Titan tech and Dragon powers to create a new fighting force against the Void Lords. I mean he already tried making Garrosh his champion and failed, tried again by aiding the Champions in Legion and succeeded, so I figure he's got an idea of what he needs to do to take the next step in creating an army of 'Champions', which could usher in the Dragonsworn as a class.

    Whether these are mortal heroes (like Thrall being able to represent the "Aspect of the Earth") or as a new generation of 'Chromatic' Dragons powered up with Dragon Isles Titan tech, Dragon Isles is mysterious and magical enough to make it all possible. Power transfer is the reason why the Dragon Aspects are what they are today.

    And to make things more interesting, I see Wrathion doing this all behind the backs of the other Aspects, without their consent, making them more like unofficial vigilantes than some group that has been given the full blessing of all the Aspects. It could play into reasons why Nozdormu may eventually want to create the Infinite Dragonflight himself.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-06-07 at 08:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    To me, the Dragonsworn class could be framed as an extension of the Guardians of Tirisfal with a dragon twist.

    Any class that has the abilities of all dragonflights would be a twist on a single Guardian having the magical power of multiple different Magi. The only issues that have been with Guardians is the potential of corruption. Blizzard has started addressing that with Wrathion seeking Medivh's aid and having created that potion that saved Ebonhorn in BFA. Medivh himself tells Wrathion you can't fix the past but you can forge a new future. And Wrathion, being as ardent a defender of Azeroth as he is, will probably take extreme measures like pulling off a 'Guardians of Tirisfal' style power transfer using Titan tech and Dragon powers to create a new fighting force against the Void Lords. I mean he already tried making Garrosh his champion and failed, tried again by aiding the Champions in Legion and succeeded, so I figure he's got an idea of what he needs to do to take the next step in creating an army of 'Champions', which could usher in the Dragonsworn as a class.

    Whether these are mortal heroes (like Thrall being able to represent the "Aspect of the Earth") or as a new generation of 'Chromatic' Dragons powered up with Dragon Isles Titan tech, Dragon Isles is mysterious and magical enough to make it all possible. Power transfer is the reason why the Dragon Aspects are what they are today.

    And to make things more interesting, I see Wrathion doing this all behind the backs of the other Aspects, without their consent, making them more like unofficial vigilantes than some group that has been given the full blessing of all the Aspects. It could play into reasons why Nozdormu may eventually want to create the Infinite Dragonflight himself.
    There's a multitude of manners in which Dragonsworn could be implemented, both mechanically and narratively.

    I'll never understand those who think any change in the status quo is "cringe" or "retcon" or "recycling" or just generally terrible. If that held true, we'd still all be Humans and Orcs fighting in Azeroth on DOS. The only "legitimate" entry into the lore would be the initial one. And, ultimately, we wouldn't have had any subsequent stories since expanding on the narrative would be a "betrayal" or "mockery" of the source material. I just can't comprehend people that vehemently promote that mindset.

    Alas, however we get Dragonsworn, I'll be open to it. I want WarCraft to be more self-referential. The current team is certainly original, but I feel they need to ground their originality in deep-rooted themes and concepts from the franchise. They're a bit too off the rails right now. It might be quality content, but it simply isn't WarCraft.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    To me, the Dragonsworn class could be framed as an extension of the Guardians of Tirisfal with a dragon twist.

    Any class that has the abilities of all dragonflights would be a twist on a single Guardian having the magical power of multiple different Magi. The only issues that have been with Guardians is the potential of corruption. Blizzard has started addressing that with Wrathion seeking Medivh's aid and having created that potion that saved Ebonhorn in BFA. Medivh himself tells Wrathion you can't fix the past but you can forge a new future. And Wrathion, being as ardent a defender of Azeroth as he is, will probably take extreme measures like pulling off a 'Guardians of Tirisfal' style power transfer using Titan tech and Dragon powers to create a new fighting force against the Void Lords. I mean he already tried making Garrosh his champion and failed, tried again by aiding the Champions in Legion and succeeded, so I figure he's got an idea of what he needs to do to take the next step in creating an army of 'Champions', which could usher in the Dragonsworn as a class.

    Whether these are mortal heroes (like Thrall being able to represent the "Aspect of the Earth") or as a new generation of 'Chromatic' Dragons powered up with Dragon Isles Titan tech, Dragon Isles is mysterious and magical enough to make it all possible. Power transfer is the reason why the Dragon Aspects are what they are today.

    And to make things more interesting, I see Wrathion doing this all behind the backs of the other Aspects, without their consent, making them more like unofficial vigilantes than some group that has been given the full blessing of all the Aspects. It could play into reasons why Nozdormu may eventually want to create the Infinite Dragonflight himself.
    This is why I brought up the agents Wrathion uses. Him powering up his loyal followers over time is in character for him and he is seeking redemption for his past so using his new connections to the leaders of the other flights he has from 8.3.

    Him seeing the horde and alliance will never truly be united making him seek out a personal army

  13. #53
    How about being a little bit more realistic?

    During the Battle for Azeroth demo at BlizzCon 2017, Wrathion could be found at the Stormwind Embassy. By the time the patch 7.3.5 PTR started, adding the embassy to the city, he had been removed.
    Occupation: Self-proclaimed leader of the black dragonflight.

    A dragonman is a type of dragonkin.
    Several of them appear as enemies in Island Expeditions, accompanying the black dragonflight.

    Blizzard, clearly, was trying to add a draconic allied race, but reverted their plans. They could have saved it for an opportune moment, like the Dragon Isles.
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Most seem to have vague, hand-wavey origins with hidden black dragonflight caches and/or experiments. But yeah, it would have to be a pretty crazy case of convergent evolutions to get storm drakes... a case that would make the "elevation" of the core flights entirely pointless if this was what they were going to become anyway.
    Maybe the titan empowering just accelerated that evolution, who knows? They evolved from elementals in the first place. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    There's a multitude of manners in which Dragonsworn could be implemented, both mechanically and narratively.

    I'll never understand those who think any change in the status quo is "cringe" or "retcon" or "recycling" or just generally terrible. If that held true, we'd still all be Humans and Orcs fighting in Azeroth on DOS. The only "legitimate" entry into the lore would be the initial one. And, ultimately, we wouldn't have had any subsequent stories since expanding on the narrative would be a "betrayal" or "mockery" of the source material. I just can't comprehend people that vehemently promote that mindset.

    Alas, however we get Dragonsworn, I'll be open to it. I want WarCraft to be more self-referential. The current team is certainly original, but I feel they need to ground their originality in deep-rooted themes and concepts from the franchise. They're a bit too off the rails right now. It might be quality content, but it simply isn't WarCraft.
    While I agree with you on this expansion feeling too disconected with original source, at some point they need to add completely new lore. I think the problem they burned the old lore too fast, and they didn't spend enough time to progressively introduce the new one.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Two big issues. I don't see Blizzard making another 4 spec class. It's just way too much work.
    Funny thing to say about a billion dollar company. Can't expect those to do any work now.
    - The One and Only, the Legendary, the Mighty - You might recognize me from the forum signatures of lesser mortals obsessed with me. -
    Vexing little man-babies and normies on the internet since before you were born.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by pacotaco View Post
    Maybe the titan empowering just accelerated that evolution, who knows? They evolved from elementals in the first place. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    - - - Updated - - -



    While I agree with you on this expansion feeling too disconected with original source, at some point they need to add completely new lore. I think the problem they burned the old lore too fast, and they didn't spend enough time to progressively introduce the new one.
    You can introduce new content through following existing characters, even beyond the natural conclusion of their story. That is, essentially, what sequels are. Let's say your character becomes the spiritual leader of their people after defeating the big bad in the original material. WarCraft makes the mistake of following that up by introducing a bigger bad, instead of further exploring that character with a challenge specific to him. Cater the threat to that spirituality - make them someone with a diametrically opposed philosophy, or even the same philosophy carried to an extreme. You don't make the stakes larger - you take advantage of the personality you've developed by making the stakes personal. Sometimes, you can even do both! But you never just add more power and encapsulate it with something entirely generic.

    Or, you get a villain like the Jailer, who I am about as interested in as Charlga Razorflank.
    Last edited by draugril; 2021-06-08 at 11:37 AM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Funny thing to say about a billion dollar company. Can't expect those to do any work now.
    Blizzard doesn't even want to balance the classes we already have. You really think they'll create another spec for EVERY class?

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    You can introduce new content through following existing characters, even beyond the natural conclusion of their story. That is, essentially, what sequels are. Let's say your character becomes the spiritual leader of their people after defeating the big bad in the original material. WarCraft makes the mistake of following that up by introducing a bigger bad, instead of further exploring that character with a challenge specific to him. Cater the threat to that spirituality - make them someone with a diametrically opposed philosophy, or even the same philosophy carried to an extreme. You don't make the stakes larger - you take advantage of the personality you've developed by making the stakes personal. Sometimes, you can even do both! But you never just add more power and encapsulate it with something entirely generic.

    Or, you get a villain like the Jailer, who I am about as interested in as Charlga Razorflank.
    I have to agree.

    They don't spend enough time building up proper villains, so they have to go out of their way to reach into the bag of old lore or corrupting some existing character to push forward, and the new ones they've been creatingaren't really well established. The only real seed is the Void Lords at this point, and even the Jailer pretty much came from nowhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    and even the Jailer pretty much came from nowhere.
    Not necessarily:





    The 'Dark Lord' is an entity that Mal'ganis mentions several times. We used to think it was Sargeras. Now we know it was probably Zovaal.
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Not necessarily:

    The 'Dark Lord' is an entity that Mal'ganis mentions several times. We used to think it was Sargeras. Now we know it was probably Zovaal.
    Er, contextually The Dark Lord of the Dead who tells Arthas to kill Mal'ganis is obviously Ner'zhul the Lich King. There would be no reason for Zovaal to tell Arthas to kill his own Nathrezim agent.

    You have to realize that the Warcraft 3 story was written at a time when Shadowlands was never even invented or conceptually planned, and that the story of Warcraft 3 was meant to be self contained to the characters within it. Zovaal was never created back then, he is an invention of today, a complete shoehorning and retcon of past events. Contextually, the Dark Lord mentioned in the Warcraft 3 campaign only makes sense to be Ner'zhul, who was actively defying his Legion masters and wished to use Arthas to free himself from his Nathrezim jailors.


    I wouldn't put much effort in trying to fit Zovaal into Warcraft 3 dialogue. It wasn't written with him in mind, and there's really no point in trying to string it into the Warcraft 3 plot circa 2001. We have to be mindful that Zovaal is literally a creation of now, that hasn't actually been seeded but rather shoehorned where best fit. It's like implying Draenei were always Blue Space Goats was hinted at in Warcraft 3, when it's the opposite and the old lore was retconned to connect two completely unrelated races to each other. The Warcraft 3 Outland Draenei had nothing to do with the Eredar, and all the lore that exists today is a retcon of past events with no actual connection in the Warcraft 3 game or storyline. Reforged was originally planned to add in a bunch of WoW lore in where it didn't exist before, but even that never happened since they scrapped the Remade campaign and just kept the original one, voices and all.

    We have to be clear of terminology here. Zovaal is a new character in the context of Blizzard writers progressing the lore. He is not a character that had ever been seeded into the story before Shadowlands. Even Sylvanas' short story involving her dying had absolutely no hint or mention of the Shadowlands, and everything in the lore about Zovaal is newly built to support the current storyline, retcons and ancient backstory included. Of course he is 100% canonized as a lore figure who has existed for eras and is responsible for many of the events in Warcraft history, but that doesn't make him any less regarded as a completely new creation that has been inserted into the backstory. The Dark Lord that Arthas hears in the Warcraft 3 game is not Zovaal, even with the retcons in mind. It was still Ner'zhul.

    -edit-

    https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/w...(Warcraft_III)

    'Dark Lord of the Dead' is even directly linked to Lich King Ner'zhul in the WoWpedia entry. It was never Sargeras, and definitely not Zovaal.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-06-09 at 07:57 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

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