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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    "Kel'Thuzad subsequently used his position and influence over Sin'dane to begin turning the houses of Maldraxxus against each other through treachery and deceit in order to further the plans of his true master, the Jailer."

    The question that needs to be asked is when was this pact made?
    Very good. You're asking the right questions.

    When was this pact made. Answer - We don't know, and we have no reason to assume when without canonical information to support it. We don't have information to suggest any given timeline. 'True master' is not a hint at any given timeframe, since this would apply whether he was always serving Zovaal since WC1, or if later adopts him as a master after the events of Wrath of the Lich King.

    If you are asking for an opinion on your speculation, then I'd say I'd disagree with your speculation since I don't view Ner'zhul as weak, and I view Blizzard actually fucking their own lore by painting him as a weak-ass bitch when he should have remained as the 'Sauron' of the series. Even if he isn't Morgoth, they shouldn't have retconned all his accomplishments away as if he was simply a puppet. I personally think that it should have remained as *his* cunning that deceived the Legion and propped Arthas into the position as the new Lich King. Changing that credit to Zovaal doesn't change Warcraft 3, considering that story is self-contained to talking about the known characters, and not hinting at some future villain that is being retroactively fit into that specific story.

    Again, same as Old Gods not directly appearing in the story even though we know that even Yogg had his tendrils in the creation of the Lich King.

    So I will say that your speculation is possible, though I will adamantly disagree with it since I don't even agree with Blizzard's current treatment of the lore. I openly criticize it just as I have pointed out how Zovaal literally came from nowhere, and how it was a poor way to implement and introduce this character when they could have planned him YEARS in advance the way they did for N'zoth, Muehzela and many others. And I adamantly disagree with Blizzard's choice to redirect credit away from Ner'zhul and to the Jailer.

    "The nathrezim originate from Revendreth, one of the infinite realms of the Shadowlands, the afterlife. They were created by Sire Denathrius countless ages ago, just after the first venthyr and Court of Harvesters were sired, to infiltrate the other cosmic forces and spread the influence of Death."

    We know it was way before the Lich King was even created. So, granted they serve Death indirectly, do we see them answering to the likes of Ner'zhul? only if Ner'zhul's bidding is their master's bidding. I can see how the text doesn't match if we apply my theory directly. But, hear me out. What if the Dark Lord is Zovaal, yet Ner'zhul was in control of the helmet? That way, the Nathrezim still serve him, yet Ner'zhul secretly still wants his independence.
    I have to question the integrity of your speculation.

    What reason do you have to assume Dark Lord must contextually be referring to anyone other than Ner'zhul? I mean at this point we're literally verging on Headcanon because you personally view Ner'zhul to be too weak to ever be referred as a Dark Lord. I can understand the sentiment, but please understand that I have no intention of sharing your sentiment.

    I've been in discussions where I've seen people say Arthas was always good, and that it was Frostmourne/Lich King who pushed him to do every bad deed, and that Arthas was 100% innocent during all of Warcraft 3. That is a headcanon viewpoint, because Warcraft 3 shows Arthas choosing a dark path by his own will. Whether Blizzard seeks to retcon that through WoW lore or the Novels is irrelevant to Warcraft 3's own self-contained storyline. So someone headcanoning that it was the Lich King or Zovaal that caused Arthas to do the Culling and not Arthas' own choice would be headcanon, even if it's an attempt to bridge in an 'innocent' Arthas like we've been seeing lately in WoW. The fact is, we won't have an innocent Arthas unless Blizzard retcons the events of Warcraft 3. I have no interest in a Zovaal that controlled Arthas any more than I do of an Arthas that was always good and that he was supernaturally co-erced to make dark choices. Arthas is not Medivh.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-06-10 at 08:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Very good. You're asking the right questions.

    When was this pact made. Answer - We don't know, and we have no reason to assume when without canonical information to support it. We don't have information to suggest any given timeline. 'True master' is not a hint at any given timeframe, since this would apply whether he was always serving Zovaal since WC1, or if later adopts him as a master after the events of Wrath of the Lich King.

    If you are asking for an opinion on your speculation, then I'd say I'd disagree with your speculation since I don't view Ner'zhul as weak, and I view Blizzard actually fucking their own lore by painting him as a weak-ass bitch when he should have remained as the 'Sauron' of the series. Even if he isn't Morgoth, they shouldn't have retconned all his accomplishments away as if he was simply a puppet. I personally think that it should have remained as *his* cunning that deceived the Legion and propped Arthas into the position as the new Lich King. Changing that credit to Zovaal doesn't change Warcraft 3, considering that story is self-contained to talking about the known characters, and not hinting at some future villain that is being retroactively fit into that specific story.

    Again, same as Old Gods not directly appearing in the story even though we know that even Yogg had his tendrils in the creation of the Lich King.

    So I will say that your speculation is possible, though I will adamantly disagree with it since I don't even agree with Blizzard's current treatment of the lore. I openly criticize it just as I have pointed out how Zovaal literally came from nowhere, and how it was a poor way to implement and introduce this character when they could have planned him YEARS in advance the way they did for N'zoth, Muehzela and many others. And I adamantly disagree with Blizzard's choice to redirect credit away from Ner'zhul and to the Jailer.



    I have to question the integrity of your speculation.

    What reason do you have to assume Dark Lord must contextually be referring to anyone other than Ner'zhul? I mean at this point we're literally verging on Headcanon because you personally view Ner'zhul to be too weak to ever be referred as a Dark Lord. I can understand the sentiment, but please understand that I have no intention of sharing your sentiment.

    I've been in discussions where I've seen people say Arthas was always good, and that it was Frostmourne/Lich King who pushed him to do every bad deed, and that Arthas was 100% innocent during all of Warcraft 3. That is a headcanon viewpoint, because Warcraft 3 shows Arthas choosing a dark path by his own will. Whether Blizzard seeks to retcon that through WoW lore or the Novels is irrelevant to Warcraft 3's own self-contained storyline. So someone headcanoning that it was the Lich King or Zovaal that caused Arthas to do the Culling and not Arthas' own choice would be headcanon, even if it's an attempt to bridge in an 'innocent' Arthas like we've been seeing lately in WoW. The fact is, we won't have an innocent Arthas unless Blizzard retcons the events of Warcraft 3. I have no interest in a Zovaal that controlled Arthas any more than I do of an Arthas that was always good and that he was supernaturally co-erced to make dark choices. Arthas is not Medivh.
    I see Ner'zhul as no stronger than Gul'dan. Everything powerful about him as the Lich King can be attributed to the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne.

    As for Arthas, this is the direction they seem to be going for...so yea, "not everything in WC3 stays in WC3"
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  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I see Ner'zhul as no stronger than Gul'dan. Everything powerful about him as the Lich King can be attributed to the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne.

    As for Arthas, this is the direction they seem to be going for...so yea, "not everything in WC3 stays in WC3"
    If you source WC3, then the context is that the WC3 campaign (not to be confused with the greater lore) has not been retconned to fit latest lore. So yes, everything WC3 stays in WC3.

    If you want to talk about Zovaal being referred to as a Dark Lord, then we need to regard there being new lore or retcons that imply this, not just a speculation of how WC3 could be interpretted another way. WC3 is a self contained story, meaning you will never see connections between Eredar and Draenei or mentions of Old God shenanigans in the story. Implying the connections were always there would be headcanon, since they never formally existed.

    An example of this is Chen's quote 'For Pandaria!' being inconsistent to his origins, since in MOP he is clearly from the Wandering Isles, and never been to Pandaria until the Mists lifted. In context of Warcraft 3, despite what we know of his origins now, Chen would have been assumed to be from Pandaria.

    Same with inconsistencies with Vashj having referred to 'Lord Illidan' despite later depictions of the War of the Ancients having never shown her ever working directly with Illidan at all; they were actually on opposing sides. Warcraft 3 remains self-contained, and the retcons exist outside of this game, not directly applied within it.

    This is one of the reasons why they were attempting to abridge the campaign with new WoW lore in Reforged, but ultimately dropped the idea when they lacked time and resources while blaming the fans for cock-blocking their attempts.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-06-10 at 09:22 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If you source WC3, then the context is that the WC3 campaign (not to be confused with the greater lore) has not been retconned to fit latest lore. So yes, everything WC3 stays in WC3.

    If you want to talk about Zovaal being referred to as a Dark Lord, then we need to regard there being new lore or retcons that imply this, not just a speculation of how WC3 could be interpretted another way. WC3 is a self contained story, meaning you will never see connections between Eredar and Draenei or mentions of Old God shenanigans in the story. Implying the connections were always there would be headcanon, since they never formally existed.
    Yet, they are trying to make Arthas redeemable.
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  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Yet, they are trying to make Arthas redeemable.
    Making him redeemable doesn't actually change Warcraft 3 as it exists.

    So if you pull quotes from Warcraft 3, it doesn't actually support whatever they're doing now to redeem him. The retcons are outside of WC3

    This is whythere's no point to using WC3 as an indication of hints to retcons when it hasn't been retconned itself. The Dark Lord you're referring to is self-contained to Ner'zhul. What you want to regard as a veiled hint at Zovaal is headcanon. No different than wildly assuming that Vashj's inconsistent connection to Illidan is somehow N'zoth's doing. If you're pulling quotes and screenshots directly out of Warcraft 3, then they're going to be about Warcraft 3 and not hinting at future retcons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Making him redeemable doesn't actually change Warcraft 3 as it exists.

    So if you pull quotes from Warcraft 3, it doesn't actually support whatever they're doing now to redeem him. The retcons are outside of WC3

    This is whythere's no point to using WC3 as an indication of hints to retcons when it hasn't been retconned itself. The Dark Lord you're referring to is self-contained to Ner'zhul. What you want to regard as a veiled hint at Zovaal is headcanon. No different than wildly assuming that Vashj's inconsistent connection to Illidan is somehow N'zoth's doing. If you're pulling quotes and screenshots directly out of Warcraft 3, then they're going to be about Warcraft 3 and not hinting at future retcons.
    So, you're basically saying WC3 is untouchable?
    Read First! (Very Important)
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  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    So, you're basically saying WC3 is untouchable?
    I'm saying if you're going to pull quotes, you have to consider the context of the source.

    You weren't referring to the greater lore of Warcraft 3, you were literally pulling quotes from Warcraft 3 and trying to break the context of the cutscenes, dialog and cinematics to imply that the Dreadlords were talking about Zovaal. That is simply wrong.

    If characters in Warcraft 3 are talking about the Lich King or the Dark Lord of Death, they're not talking about Arthas or Bolvar or Zovaal. The context is Ner'zhul, and always will be Ner'zhul. Even by the end of the Frozen Throne it was implied that Ner'zhul and Arthas became one being. The idea of Arthas dominating the personality was a WoW retcon that does not exist in the context of Warcraft 3's campaign. The Arthas novel can change the events of Warcraft 3 and spin the lore so that Arthas would be the dominant personality. Within the context of WC3 (game), regarding the dialog and cutscenes, the Lich King will always be referring to Ner'zhul. We can't imply that Warcraft 3 was hinting that the Lich King or Dark Lord of Death was referring to anyone but Ner'zhul, the context is SPECIFICALLY written to be about him.

    I said this in the very beginning - the context is important, and a reason why you can't suggest that Zovaal was being hinted at in that game when he never existed yet.

    I'm not contending that Zovaal is now responsible for manipulating events of Warcraft 3. I said his character came from nowhere, and that the sources you used were completely out of context and was being manipulated to fit a retcon that did not exist and is not supported by the source material.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-06-10 at 09:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'm saying if you're going to pull quotes, you have to consider the context of the source.

    You weren't referring to the greater lore of Warcraft 3, you were literally pulling quotes from Warcraft 3 and trying to break the context of the cutscenes, dialog and cinematics to imply that the Dreadlords were talking about Zovaal. That is simply wrong.

    If characters in Warcraft 3 are talking about the Lich King or the Dark Lord of Death, they're not talking about Arthas or Bolvar or Zovaal. The context is Ner'zhul, and always will be Ner'zhul. Even by the end of the Frozen Throne it was implied that Ner'zhul and Arthas became one being. The idea of Arthas dominating the personality was a WoW retcon that does not exist in the context of Warcraft 3's campaign. The Arthas novel can change the events of Warcraft 3 and spin the lore so that Arthas would be the dominant personality. Within the context of WC3 (game), regarding the dialog and cutscenes, the Lich King will always be referring to Ner'zhul. We can't imply that Warcraft 3 was hinting that the Lich King or Dark Lord of Death was referring to anyone but Ner'zhul, the context is SPECIFICALLY written to be about him.

    I said this in the very beginning - the context is important, and a reason why you can't suggest that Zovaal was being hinted at in that game when he never existed yet.

    I'm not contending that Zovaal is now responsible for manipulating events of Warcraft 3. I said his character came from nowhere, and that the sources you used were completely out of context and was being manipulated to fit a retcon that did not exist in Warcraft 3 itself.
    You really are a buzz killer, you know that?

    I think everything is open to retcon and change. Nothing is sacred. If they can pull off a Zovaal spin-off without changing the the course of Warcraft 3, then i'm all for it.
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  9. #89
    It’s a cool concept bringing back the flights. I’ve wanted that for a while. What I don’t like however is that it’s been “10 years and Azeroth is till recovering” and that “forces were unleashed and old enemies are all coming for Azeroth all at once”…..it’s been 10 years though they would not have waited to them suddenly just all decide to go for it.

    Remove the time jump and just have it that the people of Azeroth have been repairing by the damage that was caused to the world after the wars and enemies of Azeroth inflicted upon it. Have each expansion patch repair a little bit more until everything is fixed at the final patch release. If that’s the angle you’re taking in the time jump to revamp certain areas. You can also do a world revamp of sorts in expansion release to fix some areas as well.

    Just don’t make it such a big jump and act like the planet was fine for such a long time and now it’s under attack again from the forces we just fought as they wouldn’t have just sat idle and done nothing for 10 years

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    You really are a buzz killer, you know that?

    I think everything is open to retcon and change. Nothing is sacred. If they can pull off a Zovaal spin-off without changing the the course of Warcraft 3, then i'm all for it.
    I didn't say it wasn't open to retcon and change.

    You didn't point at any new Zovaal spinoff. You pulled WC3 dialogue. I don't want you to mistake this not being open to change, because I'm clearly illustrating a difference between regarding new material and pointing at old material that hasn't been changed to reflect new lore.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-06-10 at 11:11 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbidaggy View Post
    It’s a cool concept bringing back the flights. I’ve wanted that for a while. What I don’t like however is that it’s been “10 years and Azeroth is till recovering” and that “forces were unleashed and old enemies are all coming for Azeroth all at once”…..it’s been 10 years though they would not have waited to them suddenly just all decide to go for it.

    Remove the time jump and just have it that the people of Azeroth have been repairing by the damage that was caused to the world after the wars and enemies of Azeroth inflicted upon it. Have each expansion patch repair a little bit more until everything is fixed at the final patch release. If that’s the angle you’re taking in the time jump to revamp certain areas. You can also do a world revamp of sorts in expansion release to fix some areas as well.

    Just don’t make it such a big jump and act like the planet was fine for such a long time and now it’s under attack again from the forces we just fought as they wouldn’t have just sat idle and done nothing for 10 years
    I just did the time skip to justify the dragonsworn and give us a bit of development to things like the horde and the alliance. You can get away with anything really.

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