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  1. #901
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    How exactly is "actively making things worse" - with quite predictable backlash making things worse in another way in turn - better then doing nothing?

    Not true. Your actions aren't the only driving force in the universe.

    I have a lot of hope for other approaches that involve engagement rather then isolation.

    Obviously they aren't all-powerful like many people thought before 2014; still, they produce better outcomes then alternatives.
    You do realize that for instance, when the French Revolution happened, there was Terror and dictatorship for quite a while then we moved to an Empire before moving to a Republic, etc...

    Sometimes, before making things better, you have to make them worse.

  2. #902
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    You do realize that for instance, when the French Revolution happened, there was Terror and dictatorship for quite a while then we moved to an Empire before moving to a Republic, etc...

    Sometimes, before making things better, you have to make them worse.
    Are you for accelerationism too then? Got to make capitalism worse to force things to be better later?

    Back to Belarus as per topic, there doesn't seem to be enough inner powers interested in change to do it in revolutionary way. EU does not inflict pressure that could cause actual collapse, and it isn't obvious if you actually could build up enough of it unless you got Russian cooperation.

    And his non-fall will embolden other dictators to copy from his example.

  3. #903
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Are you for accelerationism too then? Got to make capitalism worse to force things to be better later?

    Back to Belarus as per topic, there doesn't seem to be enough inner powers interested in change to do it in revolutionary way. EU does not inflict pressure that could cause actual collapse, and it isn't obvious if you actually could build up enough of it unless you got Russian cooperation.

    And his non-fall will embolden other dictators to copy from his example.
    Yeah, Putin will back other dictators too, good guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  4. #904
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Yeah, Putin will back other dictators too, good guess.
    Either Russia or China. If you don't take that market because of ideological differences others will.

    Fall of dictator like Lukashenko - even to nominally pro-democratic protesters decrying electoral fraud - doesn't automatically create democracy either.

  5. #905
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Either Russia or China. If you don't take that market because of ideological differences others will.

    Fall of dictator like Lukashenko - even to nominally pro-democratic protesters decrying electoral fraud - doesn't automatically create democracy either.
    Nope, but it does end a dictatorship.

  6. #906
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    So we're mixing sports analogies today? To stay consistent, this would be "stay in the clubhouse" or "stay in the dugout." Baseball doesn't have sidelines, they have foul lines. Doesn't really sound like you played baseball.

    Also, no one humiliated him. Gaaz didn't link a single source, posted a picture from an unknown place, claimed there were videos of cash being delivered to dissidents from the US gov't, claimed that the reason he can't find a source is because there's a giant conspiracy, tried to equivocate speeches with literally having a puppet as president, then tried to blame it all on the US being mad about memes, when it all happened years before we'd have given a shit about russian troll farms, while simultaneously underplaying those troll farms. It reeks of a trash conspiracy theory only shalcker would pretend to believe.
    You realize that I did not link sources because they are entirely in Ukrainian or Russian language? And stop putting words into my mouth - I never claimed I could not find sources. It is just english speaking western press exists in a separate dimension and does not notice things that are inconvenient for their narrative. Also, FYI, you can just right click on an image and google search it. I tried finding an english language source, but had no luck with it. But, if you have the urge to learn another language (google translate works awfully with them, especially ukrainian, sometimes twisting the intended meaning due to complex syntax), here are a couple of them:
    https://pikabu.ru/story/parubiyu_zad...yperov_6247758
    This one includes a video of snipers exiting a building (about 20 people in total) and that a Ukrainian MP escorts them. There are discussions as to whether they were Georgian mercenaries or the Right Sector (That is what their political party is literally called) militants, because none were ever identified. But the fact is - a paramilitary group armed to wage a small war walks among, I quote John McCain - "peaceful opposition". And a parliament member stands on a side overseeing their exit.
    Here is another member of Ukrainian Parliament, Pashinski (in a hat and glasses), exiting a building with what seems like an AR-15 platform fitted with a suppressor after a mass shooting. The video was taken down by youtube, but photos remain. The other person is a personal bodyguard of Avakov, a Right Sector leader, who later became minister of internal affairs.
    http://gorozhanin.dp.ua/novosti/2101...ite-video.html
    Funny thing - these images were accidental. He was detained by protesters because they did not recognize him and he had to show them what he was carrying before he was able to present his documents as a Parliament member and a (peaceful) opposition leader.
    Video of a Lufthansa plane delivering US diplomatic mail (collecting vehicle registration plates are clearly visible) and getting huge secure bags loaded into armored cars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXtodU6Z8xU
    I hope that is enough. Also, I am not Ukrainian. But some of my relatives are. I also work a lot in Ukraine, as well as in a number of other countries. And I spend a large portion of my time there, Kiev in particular. So I do know how the country suffered due to this color revolution. For someone who visits from time to time, a change and contrast is clearly visible. It is not for the better. And in my opinion, an opinion of someone who sees what is happening first hand and talks to many locals starting from office clerks and cleaners and all the way to heads of international corporations, this was a coup. A coup that was actively supported and practically forced from the outside. By money, by mercenaries, by threats to destroy people's businesses and livelihoods. Even oligarchs like Ahmetov caved in when they were hit with sanctions and "peaceful protesters" started storming offices of his bank and his holding company.
    PS. Also, I know that English is not my first language, or even my second. But really, be more coherent in your statements, because your causes and effects seem confused. I never blamed it on US being mad about memes. That was your weird conclusion. I merely stated that even a miniscule thing like memes got you triggered, while directly financing a coup in another country is seen as business as usual. Also, these videos do get deleted by youtube on the regular. Especially ones that show "peaceful opposition" using firearms. Graphic violence and all that. Interested in that - search darkweb, they are not hidden very deep. And compared to what was happening in Ukraine, these troll farms are a shit on the curb of a road - I would not look twice in that direction even if I noticed it in the first place. So yeah, I downplay them. Like any sane person should. Because if you really think that your election was stolen by a $3000 of memes, tinfoil hats are way overdue. This trash conspiracy theory made one of the countries that I love into a dump, partially (at the very least) ruled by Nazis and paramilitary groups and partially by incompetent baboons and parrots sponsored by the US (remind me how much does US give them this year? $540 millions was it?). And when I say Nazis, I really mean the real ones, as in Third Reich Nazis.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKBN1GV2TY

    PPS. Hizb ut-Tahrir is now officially a political party in Ukraine. You know, this one:

    https://hizb.org.ua/uk/
    It does a fair bit of recruiting there as I am told. So I guess the mission was a "success", another hotspot near Russia and European Union was created.
    Last edited by Gaaz; 2021-06-05 at 08:54 PM.

  7. #907
    You remember that Belarus and others liberally accuse people of being "fascists" and wonder if it actually means anything?

    Well, now they are following in Stalin's footsteps and calling people who fought against Nazis for fascists:
    https://www.dw.com/en/belarus-issues...ers/a-57764143

  8. #908
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    You remember that Belarus and others liberally accuse people of being "fascists" and wonder if it actually means anything?

    Well, now they are following in Stalin's footsteps and calling people who fought against Nazis for fascists:
    https://www.dw.com/en/belarus-issues...ers/a-57764143
    Actually, USSR time had less accusations flying around, as funny as that might sound. Maybe because it was fresher memory, maybe to keep the populations placated, not sure. This is pure politics and populism, as always.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  9. #909
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post

    Fall of dictator like Lukashenko - even to nominally pro-democratic protesters decrying electoral fraud - doesn't automatically create democracy either.
    That's the dumbest argument yet.

    "Don't try to improve things, success is not guaranteed, so keep wallowing in misery."

  10. #910
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    That's the dumbest argument yet.

    "Don't try to improve things, success is not guaranteed, so keep wallowing in misery."
    At this point it is possible to say not "success is not guaranteed", but "failure is guaranteed". You're simply unwilling to commit at the level where it worked in the past and your actions are purely reactive.

  11. #911
    So that threat about "we are gonna stop blocking migrants" seems to be happening. Belarus is now doing the sneaky and lets people pass into Lithuania, then clears up the evidence. Saw in news today a couple of surveilance videos from Lithuanian border guards showing uniformed dudes on the border erasing footprints. This corresponds with recent reports of highly increased illegal border crossing count from Belarus into Lithuania.

    I guess this is the best Lukashenko's regime can do ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  12. #912
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    So that threat about "we are gonna stop blocking migrants" seems to be happening. Belarus is now doing the sneaky and lets people pass into Lithuania, then clears up the evidence. Saw in news today a couple of surveilance videos from Lithuanian border guards showing uniformed dudes on the border erasing footprints. This corresponds with recent reports of highly increased illegal border crossing count from Belarus into Lithuania.

    I guess this is the best Lukashenko's regime can do ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Time to close the border I guess.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  13. #913
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    At this point it is possible to say not "success is not guaranteed", but "failure is guaranteed". You're simply unwilling to commit at the level where it worked in the past and your actions are purely reactive.
    In no way is failure guaranteed.

  14. #914
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    In no way is failure guaranteed.
    What do you think was last success, and what it would take to repeat it today?

  15. #915
    More stupid stuff from Lukashenko - Belarus now has a National Unity day, celebrated on... 17th September, the day when USSR attacked Poland in 1939. Poland's Foreign Ministry is pissed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  16. #916
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    More stupid stuff from Lukashenko - Belarus now has a National Unity day, celebrated on... 17th September, the day when USSR attacked Poland in 1939. Poland's Foreign Ministry is pissed.
    He also snubbed new US ambassador (agreed upon during Trump era) and barred her from entering Belarus.

  17. #917
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    He also snubbed new US ambassador (agreed upon during Trump era) and barred her from entering Belarus.
    Potato Fuhrer is a moron, what else is to be said... How long until the next bowing to Russia in an attempt to clinch more cash?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  18. #918
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    That's the dumbest argument yet.
    It's not really a dumb argument.

    Iraq and Libya had their dictators removed by the west, and many Syrians are trying to get rid of theirs. All three countries are worse off today for it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Potato Fuhrer is a moron, what else is to be said... How long until the next bowing to Russia in an attempt to clinch more cash?
    At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the jerk just flat out held a (totally not rigged) referendum on reunifying with Russia >.>

  19. #919
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the jerk just flat out held a (totally not rigged) referendum on reunifying with Russia >.>
    Never. He looses power, this is the last thing he will do if everything else fails.
    Do note - you might not need to rig the referendum in Belarus (debatable, but still). I am also not sure Russians are gonna be very happy about that, it would make yet another money pit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  20. #920
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    It's not really a dumb argument.

    Iraq and Libya had their dictators removed by the west, and many Syrians are trying to get rid of theirs. All three countries are worse off today for it.
    Today is obviously not the metric to measure this by. To get to the French Republic from Loius XIV. France had to go through Napoleon, too.

    The problem is obviously "by the West". We should stop paying them any aid or interacting with these regimes and let their countries blow up in civil war to cleanse themselves. That's the only known method to work as we have seen in almost every country in Europe at some point in history. They have to have the opportunity to fuck themselves up big time before they realise how to do it right. As long as we keep "saving" them from the worst outcomes, they'll never change to anything that could be called a decent contributor to the global community.
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