KGB Hijacks Flight to Arrest Journalist.

[zealo]

Cos in the twisted Russian mind, "Democracy" = "Dictatorship" and "oppression".

They are so brainwashed, they cannot fathom that anyone would think differently than they do. They think oppression is the natural state of the world. And whatever anyone says that contradicts this is just a lie designed to deceive about the authoritarian nature of democracy and its Western, imperialist dictatorships.

You can't dumb it down enough, but it'll be somewhere in this region of thinking...

This attitude is right in line with how Russia doesn't recognise and respect how other countries have agency of their own, it's either enemies or outright vassals with Russia, the mentality on display here is very much in the line of that when democracy gets called a dog whistle for "American dominion".

[Cringefest]

"Bush/Cheney lied therefore every pro-democracy movement is astroturfed Western expansionism" is some conspiracy level bullshit, sweaty.

No, we really care about Ukrainians! *thumbsup*

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You’re making zero sense. Whatever though.

Keep up the good fight, I'm sure THIS TIME we really mean to export democracy.

[Mayhem]

No, we really care about Ukrainians! *thumbsup*

Could you just for funsies explain what you think happened in Ukraine? Like, really explain what you think happened because I have no idea what your little comments are about.

[Shalcker]

Btw, do you know where Lukashenko got an idea?

From Ukraine.

Who planned to use pretty much exact scheme to force flight from Belarus to Istanbul to land in Kiev to detain Wagner mercenaries.

http://euromaidanpress.com/2020/08/2...id-special-op/
The operation

Ukrayinska Pravda provided more details on the planning and the course of the failed special operation, citing their undisclosed sources.

The plan was to bring the group from Moscow to Minsk Airport on 24 July and, without a stay in Belarus, fly them to Istanbul on 25 July. The further intention was to land the plane in one of the Ukrainian airports due to a sudden fake disease of a passenger who would have been an SBU agent. Under the guise of paramedics, a group of special forces would have entered the plane to detain the Wagnerians.

On July 24, SBU Deputy Chief Ruslan Baranetsky and MD’s MID Chief Vasyl Burba informed the President’s Office on the final stage of the operation. The listeners at the briefing were President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, Head of the Office Andriy Yermak, First Deputy Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council, Chairman of the Intelligence Committee Ruslan Demchenko, Deputy Chairman of the Defense Committee Roman Mashovets, Secretary of the President Maria Levchenko.

...and they got praises from media for that.

[Forogil]

Btw, do you know where Lukashenko got an idea?

From Ukraine.

Who planned to use pretty much exact scheme to force flight from Belarus to Istanbul to land in Kiev to detain Wagner mercenaries.

The Ukrainian plot also involved having them confess to their war-crimes in advance on a job-interview (that part actually happened) - so those Russian really seem guilty of war-crimes in Donbass.

As for the actual flight that Ukraine planned to take over it was planned to be a chartered flight - in contrast to the flight that Belarus hijacked between two EU countries, which was a regular flight and those contained EU citizens that were endangered just for being on the wrong plane.
It's also possible that Ukraine skipped that part due to the political cost - something that the dictator Lukashenko doesn't care about.

[Shalcker]

The Ukrainian plot also involved having them confess to their war-crimes in advance on a job-interview (that part actually happened) - so those Russian really seem guilty of war-crimes in Donbass.

You're mixing "accused with war crimes" with "confessing to war crimes". All they confessed to is being in Ukraine on rebel side.

Which of course is a crime in Ukraine; just like coordinating attacks on law enforcement is a crime in Belarus.

As for the actual flight that Ukraine planned to take over it was planned to be a chartered flight - in contrast to the flight that Belarus hijacked between two EU countries, which was a regular flight and those contained EU citizens that were endangered just for being on the wrong plane.
It's also possible that Ukraine skipped that part due to the political cost - something that the dictator Lukashenko doesn't care about.

No, they skipped it because they wanted to delay it for other reasons... and then Lukashenko arrested them before their next flight.

They didn't care about cost because they literally didn't see a cost in that.

As did no other intelligence operatives mentioned in article. They even say "We run small operations like this against [the Sicilian mafia] and [Calabrian] 'ndrangheta to catch fugitives".

[Specialka]

You're mixing "accused with war crimes" with "confessing to war crimes". All they confessed to is being in Ukraine on rebel side.

Which of course is a crime in Ukraine; just like coordinating attacks on law enforcement is a crime in Belarus.

No, they skipped it because they wanted to delay it for other reasons... and then Lukashenko arrested them before their next flight.

They didn't care about cost because they literally didn't see a cost in that.

As did no other intelligence operatives mentioned in article. They even say "We run small operations like this against [the Sicilian mafia] and [Calabrian] 'ndrangheta to catch fugitives".

Still defending the actions of a dictatorship and a rogue state ? Keep up the good work.

[Shalcker]

Still defending the actions of a dictatorship and a rogue state ? Keep up the good work.

"Rogue state" for EU seem to be equivalent to "state that doesn't care about your opinions in doing what it considers necessary to be done".

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Remind me again what happened when Ukraine enacted this plan.

They got praised for it, duh; that's what article is about.

[Shalcker]

Big swing and a miss. They never hijacked a plane according to the article. Nice try though.

They planned it and noone in intelligence community mentioned in the article batted an eye at that.

[Specialka]

"Rogue state" for EU seem to be equivalent to "state that doesn't care about your opinions in doing what it considers necessary to be done".

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They got praised for it, duh; that's what article is about.

So you mean you are ok with hijacking planes ?

[Shalcker]

So you mean you are ok with hijacking planes ?

Clearly wherever you consider it "hijacking" depends on wherever it is "act of rogue state"; if you do not consider state to be rogue then it's just usual intelligence operation, as we see from intelligence community responses in article.

Clearly problem isn't in the act but in the actor.

And as we do not designate it as such we don't have to agree that it was hijacking.

Plane was stopped for a check, one criminal (and his girlfriend) was apprehended, then plane continued to destination.

[Slant]

Could you just for funsies explain what you think happened in Ukraine? Like, really explain what you think happened because I have no idea what your little comments are about.

Fun fact, neither does he.

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"Rogue state" for EU seem to be equivalent to "state that doesn't care about your opinions in doing what it considers necessary to be done".

Rogue state is a state that left the international order and ignores international law. But keep pretending you can just redefine reality as you wish.

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Clearly wherever you consider it "hijacking" depends on wherever it is "act of rogue state"; if you do not consider state to be rogue then it's just usual intelligence operation, as we see from intelligence community responses in article.

Clearly problem isn't in the act but in the actor.

And as we do not designate it as such we don't have to agree that it was hijacking.

Plane was stopped for a check, one criminal (and his girlfriend) was apprehended, then plane continued to destination.

Deny where you can, admit as little as you have to... typical Russian strategy.

That last bit? Let's be more precise.

Belarus broke ICAO rules about international flight. They fabricated a fantasy bomb threat, threatened an EU plane with 80something EU citizens with lethal military force, they suspended freedom of movement of EU citizens moving between EU origin and destination, held then at an airport, AT GUNPOINT for 8 hours outside of the airplane, forcibly removed two non-EU citizens from what is internationally regarded as EU soil... THEN plane continued to destination.

Let's not be hasty and gloss over the dozens of fuckups that happened.

[Shalcker]

Rogue state is a state that left the international order and ignores international law. But keep pretending you can just redefine reality as you wish.

There is no international law prohibiting detention of criminals by their own state.

Nor is there any international law prohibiting forced plane landings - as there are plenty of situations where such landings can be justified.

Belarus broke ICAO rules about international flight.

ICAO rules aren't international law, and ICAO fact-finding mission isn't even finished yet.

Who needs investigations when you can get straight to punishment? /s

They fabricated a fantasy bomb threat,

Ranges from a few years in prison to fine.

threatened an EU plane with 80something EU citizens with lethal military force

This threat literally never happened.

they suspended freedom of movement of EU citizens moving between EU origin and destination

Is Belarus any kind of signatory to EU "freedom of movement"?

held then at an airport, AT GUNPOINT for 8 hours outside of the airplane, forcibly removed two non-EU citizens from what is internationally regarded as EU soil...

Yeah, your descriptions get more and more bizarre. Gunpoint? Where do you get this from?

[Specialka]

Clearly wherever you consider it "hijacking" depends on wherever it is "act of rogue state"; if you do not consider state to be rogue then it's just usual intelligence operation, as we see from intelligence community responses in article.

Clearly problem isn't in the act but in the actor.

And as we do not designate it as such we don't have to agree that it was hijacking.

Plane was stopped for a check, one criminal (and his girlfriend) was apprehended, then plane continued to destination.

Planed was hijacked under false pretense ? Don't you see the difference ? And so you are ok with dictators arresting their opponents ?

[Forogil]

You're mixing "accused with war crimes" with "confessing to war crimes".

No, I'm using the link you provided that stated they tricked the persons accused of war crimes to confess. I haven't seen the actual confessions so I don't know exactly what they said.

However, this is what-about-ism is getting pathetic - it's now that Ukraine had planned to do something similar but DIDN'T, so therefore it was perfectly normal for the terrorist state Belarus to hijack a plane between two EU-countries.

[Slant]

There is no international law prohibiting detention of criminals by their own state.

Nor is there any international law prohibiting forced plane landings - as there are plenty of situations where such landings can be justified.

ICAO rules aren't international law, and ICAO fact-finding mission isn't even finished yet.

Who needs investigations when you can get straight to punishment? /s

Ranges from a few years in prison to fine.

This threat literally never happened.

Is Belarus any kind of signatory to EU "freedom of movement"?

Yeah, your descriptions get more and more bizarre. Gunpoint? Where do you get this from?

International law basically says that contracting states of the Chicago convention are allowed to fly over each other's territory. Only in cases of emergency can a contracting state force an airplane to land. And that wasn't the case here, thus they broke international law.

https://www.icao.int/publications/Do.../7300_cons.pdf

It's all in there, not that you would read it, because why would you dig through actual law before talking out of your ass.

ICAO rules are an international legal framework. Unfortunately for you, Belarus signed the Chicago convention on June 4th 1993. Sucks to be uninformed, I guess. So yes, this makes it international law and Belarus is a contract party to that. The fuck you think you're impressing here with your bullshit?

The EU response isn't PUNISHMENT, it's a preventive measure to limit Belarus ability to abduct more EU citizens and/or protect EU airspace from airlines from a country that openly disregards international law and airspace regulations. The INVESTIGATION is going to decide how many sanctions are going to be piled on later. This? This isn't punishment.

Flying a military jet next to an airliner absolutely is an inherent threat of military force. Who are you trying to fool here?

Belarus is not a signatory to any of the EU treaties. But that is irrelevant. It happened, the EU is going to respond within its rights. And the closure of EU airspace is absolutely in the EU's right. Again, just to remind you, flying through EU airspace is a PRIVILEGE that any third country receives WITH PERMISSION of the EU member states. It's not a right, it's not an entitlement. And you should stop whining about it. Unless you want to admit that a hostile nation taking civilian passengers hostage is something of a dick move? No? Ok then.

[Cringefest]

Fun fact, neither does he.

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Rogue state is a state that left the international order and ignores international law. But keep pretending you can just redefine reality as you wish.

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Deny where you can, admit as little as you have to... typical Russian strategy.

That last bit? Let's be more precise.

Belarus broke ICAO rules about international flight. They fabricated a fantasy bomb threat, threatened an EU plane with 80something EU citizens with lethal military force, they suspended freedom of movement of EU citizens moving between EU origin and destination, held then at an airport, AT GUNPOINT for 8 hours outside of the airplane, forcibly removed two non-EU citizens from what is internationally regarded as EU soil... THEN plane continued to destination.

Let's not be hasty and gloss over the dozens of fuckups that happened.

I'm perfectly aware of what happened. That's why I condemn it. If you're happy with 21st century colonialism, that's on you. I don't blame you though, this usually comes down to lack of education.

[Shalcker]

Planed was hijacked under false pretense ? Don't you see the difference ?

It's intelligence operation to get someone marked as terrorist by their home country. Sometimes those involve false pretenses - perhaps even most often.

They don't happen with planes that often because they are quite hard to coordinate this way.

And so you are ok with dictators arresting their opponents ?

The reverse of that is "dictators that don't actually have any power", which is silly.

They have the power, they have the motive, of course they'll do it. Any real opposition has to deal with that.

Putting EU hand on the scale doesn't mean that threat goes away. You don't get to remove dictator by telling him "you don't actually have a right!"; you need credible opposition in place and every EU action marginalizes them instead - thus promoting rather then curbing dictatorial tendencies.

[Slant]

I'm perfectly aware of what happened. That's why I condemn it. If you're happy with 21st century colonialism, that's on you. I don't blame you though, this usually comes down to lack of education.

No idea what you're on about. Try to make a coherent post next time.

[Shalcker]

However, this is what-about-ism is getting pathetic - it's now that Ukraine had planned to do something similar but DIDN'T, so therefore it was perfectly normal for the terrorist state Belarus to hijack a plane between two EU-countries.

Cheerful international response to plot - which Lukashenko had likely seen as this operation had to be on his radar, given that he was the one supposedly duped by Ukrainians - is what likely prompted him to actually do it.