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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    there are always people doing old content in both retail and classic. it's more about the amount of them.
    A massive misconstruction of the state of affairs.

    When people do "old content" on Retail, they're doing it for Mounts, Transmog or Achievements, when people are doing "old" content on Classic / TBC, they're doing it for gear.
    There was practically no reason to do Uldir after 8.1 came out, because the assaults / M+ provided equivalent / superior gear, same goes for BoD after 8.2 release.

    The catchup provided with each patch simply makes the previous tier unattractive to gear up, not to mention that the itemization itselfs tries to replace every item on each slots with each new tier.

    As Ele, i'll still be wearing about 5 Items from T4 in T5, so if i'm missing any of those items once T5 releases, i will still do T4 to actually progress my character until i get those items.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    people always say a thing that was great about original TBC is that you had T4, T5 and T6 guilds existing simultaneously. i would be extremely surprised if that happens this time around. all the players will arrive on day1 this time, whereas in original TBC you still had a constant stream of new players that could feed those t4 guilds.
    I doubt there will be a massive throng of people progressing through these raids when the next one releases, but that doesn't mean people aren't going to do those raids, simply because they might still need an Item or do it on Alts.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    A massive misconstruction of the state of affairs.

    When people do "old content" on Retail, they're doing it for Mounts, Transmog or Achievements, when people are doing "old" content on Classic / TBC, they're doing it for gear.
    There was practically no reason to do Uldir after 8.1 came out, because the assaults / M+ provided equivalent / superior gear, same goes for BoD after 8.2 release.

    The catchup provided with each patch simply makes the previous tier unattractive to gear up, not to mention that the itemization itselfs tries to replace every item on each slots with each new tier.

    As Ele, i'll still be wearing about 5 Items from T4 in T5, so if i'm missing any of those items once T5 releases, i will still do T4 to actually progress my character until i get those items.

    I doubt there will be a massive throng of people progressing through these raids when the next one releases, but that doesn't mean people aren't going to do those raids, simply because they might still need an Item or do it on Alts.
    i like how you accuse me of misconstruing things and then conveniently leave out the comparison to legion, where there was a peak in doing old content for gear.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by xaerus View Post
    Pretty simple straight forward question, between the two games which do you feel would take more time to keep up with progression? Let's a say a player wanted to be able to keep up with AOTC progression and equivalent in BC, which game would require more time from the player?
    I think that retail takes more time, purely due to the gribding of repeatedly running various difgiculties of raids and dungeons. TBC does provide plenty of options of wasting time in a fun way though.
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  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    i like how you accuse me of misconstruing things and then conveniently leave out the comparison to legion, where there was a peak in doing old content for gear.
    I don't exactly see AP or Legendaries as the thing, because those items / currencies could be acquired from virtually any piece of content.
    You're not getting Onslaught belt or TF by raiding AQ20, ZG or any raid for that matter, you gotta go MC.

    The difference should frankly be obvious for anyone that knows what i'm talking about, putting aside that those were merely symptons of the extremely broken Legendary / AP system at the start of Legion.

    People didn't do Nighthold / EN anymore once Antorus was out, because the system was redesigned that such actions were no longer necessary to acquire additional AP / Legendaries.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-05-30 at 06:20 PM.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Delano View Post
    Retail makes you do your daily chores and homework before the vague, ephemeral concept of "fun" even theoretically introduces itself. TBC, on the other hand, is consistently fun throughout.

    So, which do you think is a bigger time sink?
    Fun is subjective. Personally TBC was the expac I had the least fun in as it was boring. It was the only xpac I unsubbed for.

  6. #226
    I think it comes down to playstyle to be honest. If you want to clear all of tbc but only do normal/heroic on live then tbc is the bigger time sink as your going to have to do harder content or gear longer then your used to.

    If you do mythic on live tbc is far.far less of a time sink as you quickly grow out of content till your simply doing raids.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I don't exactly see AP or Legendaries as the thing, because those items / currencies could be acquired from virtually any piece of content.
    You're not getting Onslaught belt or TF by raiding AQ20, ZG or any raid for that matter, you gotta go MC.

    The difference should frankly be obvious for anyone that knows what i'm talking about, putting aside that those were merely symptons of the extremely broken Legendary / AP system at the start of Legion.

    People didn't do Nighthold / EN anymore once Antorus was out, because the system was redesigned that such actions were no longer necessary to acquire additional AP / Legendaries.
    people did ursoc at least half the expansion to get that trinket. and that jim boss at least as long.

    but my point remains: there wont be t4 and t5 guilds doing t4 and t5 as their primary content then t6 is out. most people will get these super good items while t4 and t5 is current content, which it will be for months. only the relatively small amount that didn't get it while it was current content will do the old raids, largely outside their guilds in pugs/boost/gdkp runs.

    now there is no denying that TBC has many more of such good old content items, but between the time you have to farm when its current content and the get it and forget it nature of the items, i'd wager the eternal hunt for titanforges in legion wouldn't make the % of players doing it all that different.

    and if you count the people doing it for the artifact quests and the like (which a lot of people here seem to think "doesn't count" for playtime :S), legion probably just wins.

    i know i spend A LOT of time in late legion on getting a lot of artifact skins/mage towers done. at that point in the TBC lifecycle people will just be twiddling their thumbs waiting for WotLK/new servers.
    Last edited by Hellobolis; 2021-05-30 at 09:35 PM.

  8. #228
    They’re both a huge waste of time lol

    So many better things to spend your time on.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    people did ursoc at least half the expansion to get that trinket. and that jim boss at least as long.
    Solely due to Titanforging, remove that and those trinkets would've been useless far more quickly.

    If you want to argue that Titanforging is equalivant to the Classic / TBC itemization, i'm going to end the discussion right here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    but my point remains: there wont be t4 and t5 guilds doing t4 and t5 as their primary content then t6 is out. most people will get these super good items while t4 and t5 is current content, which it will be for months. only the relatively small amount that didn't get it while it was current content will do the old raids, largely outside their guilds in pugs/boost/gdkp runs.
    I think there will still be guilds that do SSC / TK once T6 is out, similiar to how guilds did MC / BWL after AQ release.

    They phase them out eventually, but the cutoff is far from clean as it in retail where basically everybody drops a raid after the next one launches.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    i'd wager the eternal hunt for titanforges in legion wouldn't make the % of players doing it all that different.
    Wrote the paragraph above before i read that, now i'll stick to that.

    Have a nice day.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Solely due to Titanforging, remove that and those trinkets would've been useless far more quickly.

    If you want to argue that Titanforging is equalivant to the Classic / TBC itemization, i'm going to end the discussion right here.
    i'm not arguing that, though i guess it's easy to get off track. i'm arguing people spend time on it.

    but that kind of defeats any argument TBC can ever have doesn't it? If you have to have an argument about the degree of old content being played, or the degree of cosmetic content being played, etc, it just shows you aren't the clear winner and you are just arguing about how close it is.

    meanwhile if you just go back in time a month, when both classic and retail were in content draughts, many guilds in retail are still hard at work getting their cutting edge, half my guild is still regularly doing boost runs, people still pushing their M+ scores. all the core game activities are still going steady and it easily takes 10+ hours a week to do. while in classic people who still raid spend like what? an evening tops? and that won't be different for TBC.

    i am kinda curious how long the vacation players will stick around in TBC compared to classic and retail though.

  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    i'm not arguing that, though i guess it's easy to get off track. i'm arguing people spend time on it.

    but that kind of defeats any argument TBC can ever have doesn't it? If you have to have an argument about the degree of old content being played, or the degree of cosmetic content being played, etc, it just shows you aren't the clear winner and you are just arguing about how close it is.

    meanwhile if you just go back in time a month, when both classic and retail were in content draughts, many guilds in retail are still hard at work getting their cutting edge, half my guild is still regularly doing boost runs, people still pushing their M+ scores. all the core game activities are still going steady and it easily takes 10+ hours a week to do. while in classic people who still raid spend like what? an evening tops? and that won't be different for TBC.

    i am kinda curious how long the vacation players will stick around in TBC compared to classic and retail though.
    You're making the assumption everyone who raids in classic has completed all content and just raid log. Like retail there's various levels of ability and some guilds go through progression until the very end. The difference is classic has a definitive end set now and progression has become pointless.

  12. #232
    some of you guys were right, TBC wasn't a big time sink. Getting revered for dungeons didn't take that long due to getting ~2k per dungeon run and those runs were really fast. Karazhan attunement took under 3 hours to complete.
    I'm already a raidlog ready.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    They’re both a huge waste of time lol

    So many better things to spend your time on.
    Such insight. Who knew that most forms of entertainment, be it books, movies, tvshows, videogames or knitting would be wastes of time. Thanks!

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    They’re both a huge waste of time lol

    So many better things to spend your time on.
    Like posting on MMO-Champion, clearly the peak of time well spent. All entertainment is made for time wasting.

    OT: Retail has no grind, so clearly TBC. We will see what comes next patch, but 9.0 had nothing to grind if you were doing Heroic only, and no, you don't need to grind renown, you just get it, you will be 2 points behind, or the maw, sockets/conduits are very weak, in heroic, noone will care.

    If you want to raid Mythic they are probably pretty equal.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Such insight. Who knew that most forms of entertainment, be it books, movies, tvshows, videogames or knitting would be wastes of time. Thanks!
    Put your time and energy into quality entertainment made from people who care about artistry and need the support.

    I wouldn't even consider that a waste of time. I'd consider it time well spent.

    Don't spend your time and energy on a predatory shithole company that values retention above quality and doesn't appreciate their community or supporters.

    That's the context of what I meant.
    Last edited by Mojo03; 2021-06-14 at 07:33 AM.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    Like posting on MMO-Champion, clearly the peak of time well spent. All entertainment is made for time wasting.

    OT: Retail has no grind, so clearly TBC. We will see what comes next patch, but 9.0 had nothing to grind if you were doing Heroic only, and no, you don't need to grind renown, you just get it, you will be 2 points behind, or the maw, sockets/conduits are very weak, in heroic, noone will care.
    I didn't really need to grind in TBC p1 either. I grinded reputations to revered for fun, I could have skipped that since in phase 1 you don't need heroics if someone else can summon the Nightbane. Kara and first 25mans were so easy my guildies cleared those with t3/dungeon blues. No need to grind and no one cared if we didn't have full crafted epic sets.

    Care to say what grind is required in TBC? You said you don't need to grind renown, you just get it. Same applies to reputation if you just play some dungeons weekly, you'll get heroic keys way before they are needed in SSC/TK.

    I don't get the logic no grind is needed in retail HC but suddenly you need to grind in TBC for as easy if not even easier content.
    Last edited by strixer; 2021-06-14 at 02:15 PM.

  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by xaerus View Post
    Pretty simple straight forward question, between the two games which do you feel would take more time to keep up with progression? Let's a say a player wanted to be able to keep up with AOTC progression and equivalent in BC, which game would require more time from the player?
    This is the equivalent of asking which car is harder to maintain, a 65 Mustang or 2021 Corvette. Both are easy to maintain but they are very different in almost every way.
    Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
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  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Solely due to Titanforging, remove that and those trinkets would've been useless far more quickly.

    If you want to argue that Titanforging is equalivant to the Classic / TBC itemization, i'm going to end the discussion right here.

    I think there will still be guilds that do SSC / TK once T6 is out, similiar to how guilds did MC / BWL after AQ release.

    They phase them out eventually, but the cutoff is far from clean as it in retail where basically everybody drops a raid after the next one launches.

    Wrote the paragraph above before i read that, now i'll stick to that.

    Have a nice day.
    base itemlevel unstable arcanocrystal was viable till maybe ToS if not antorus because secondary stats >>> primary during legion, so it was always worth it to kill withered j'im every week.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    base itemlevel unstable arcanocrystal was viable till maybe ToS if not antorus because secondary stats >>> primary during legion, so it was always worth it to kill withered j'im every week.
    I think it was every 11 weeks, given the bosses were on rotation.
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  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    base itemlevel unstable arcanocrystal was viable till maybe ToS if not antorus because secondary stats >>> primary during legion
    The crux is that scaling of secondary stats was completely out of whack, especially early on and thus a trinket that had its entire budget in secondary stats was far more powerful than it should have been.

    The entire Arcanocrystal was more or less an exception and cannot be compared to items such as Onslaught Belt in Classic that were powerful in their own right.

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