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  1. #121
    Elemental Lord Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I mean I kinda hope people adopt this attitude. If the entire purpose was to beat people into participating in tyrannica weeks I kinda hope it back fires on them and m+ particiation either tanks as a whole or just doesn't increase during those affixes.. Again the reward is just a reskin of the already existing mount. Who cares? Like they couldn't have picked a worse way to try and encourage participation in those affixes.
    You also need KSM to upgrade the M+ gear with valor. So suffering through Tyrannical is required even if you don't care for the mount

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    It doesn't. That's the thing. Your mindset is that "just because it makes a slight difference its better than nothing".
    While in grand scheme of things, it takes up a slot that could have been otherwise MUCH more interesting. In other words, you have accepted a bad implementation because its better than nothing.
    And the funny thing is, blizzard absolutely CAN do better as they shown in some of the anima powers in torghast. Just the players has accepted half assed solutions.
    Nope, I genuinely enjoy it. If you prefer to believe that I was somehow forced to enjoy it for lack of better alternative, be my guest, but it's just you trying to convince yourself that your opinion is the only legitimate one. It's not, no matter how hard you want it to be.

    For me, they struck a perfect balance. There's enough of "interesting" mechanical affixes in the mix that somehow alter my gameplay week to week, and the flat modifier ones work very well to provide variety to builds & resources used. I don't need them to do anything else.

    (EDIT: In fact, I believe another mechanical affix would be, overall, bad for the experience and design, because of mechanical clutter. There's enough of overlaping affix mechanics already that can sometimes work in a deadly way; adding another one to the mix would, in my opinion, create unnecessary chaos and possibility of even worse overlaps. A typical high level m+ run is already quite engaging, there's no need to add to that. A simple flat modifier, however, that forces different resource allocation and build variety, is just perfect to spice things up in a different, less intrusive way.)
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2021-06-04 at 08:45 AM.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Nope, I genuinely enjoy it. If you prefer to believe that I was somehow forced to enjoy it for lack of better alternative, be my guest, but it's just you trying to convince yourself that your opinion is the only legitimate one. It's not, no matter how hard you want it to be.

    For me, they struck a perfect balance. There's enough of "interesting" mechanical affixes in the mix that somehow alter my gameplay week to week, and the flat modifier ones work very well to provide variety to builds & resources used. I don't need them to do anything else.

    (EDIT: In fact, I believe another mechanical affix would be, overall, bad for the experience and design, because of mechanical clutter. There's enough of overlaping affix mechanics already that can sometimes work in a deadly way; adding another one to the mix would, in my opinion, create unnecessary chaos and possibility of even worse overlaps. A typical high level m+ run is already quite engaging, there's no need to add to that. A simple flat modifier, however, that forces different resource allocation and build variety, is just perfect to spice things up in a different, less intrusive way.)
    This is a pretty reasonable take. Surprisingly I haven't heard the argument adding a new mechanical affix (often mooted to replace tyr and fort) would be mechanically overkill, but it seems pretty solid. I also agree that Tyr and fort, by themselves, sufficiently change the nature of the dungeons that they have merit in keeping M+ fresh. Balance is an issue - and high tyr scaling can be a wee bit dull on mechanically simple bosses though.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Nope, I genuinely enjoy it. If you prefer to believe that I was somehow forced to enjoy it for lack of better alternative, be my guest, but it's just you trying to convince yourself that your opinion is the only legitimate one. It's not, no matter how hard you want it to be.

    For me, they struck a perfect balance. There's enough of "interesting" mechanical affixes in the mix that somehow alter my gameplay week to week, and the flat modifier ones work very well to provide variety to builds & resources used. I don't need them to do anything else.

    (EDIT: In fact, I believe another mechanical affix would be, overall, bad for the experience and design, because of mechanical clutter. There's enough of overlaping affix mechanics already that can sometimes work in a deadly way; adding another one to the mix would, in my opinion, create unnecessary chaos and possibility of even worse overlaps. A typical high level m+ run is already quite engaging, there's no need to add to that. A simple flat modifier, however, that forces different resource allocation and build variety, is just perfect to spice things up in a different, less intrusive way.)
    I haven't said you don't enjoy it. I have said you settled for bad implementation because you either don't know it can be MUCH better or you dont care enough.

    There's enough of overlaping affix mechanics already that can sometimes work in a deadly way
    Because those overlapping affix mechanics are also designed in a wrong way. Its not the amount of it, its the combination of bad ones that does it.

    First of all, affixes that happen randomly in order to make run more annoying is bad design. It's just a hamstring. Volcanic, Quaking, Explosive, Storming.

    Second, affixes that punishes you for doing something makes more sense, however they are still not best design. Overflowing, Sanguine, Necrotic, Raging, Grevious, Bursting, Bolstering.

    Third category is actual mechanic affixes - here we start with finally some good designs, Reaping, Prideful, Awakened

    And last category, absolute lack of imagination bad affixes - Tyranical, Teeming, Fortified.

    What I would want is to completely delete last category, its pointless. Instead create kiss-curse category with 5+ affixes that directly affects your gameplay. Some examples are:

    Jumping gives you some ?haste? buff
    Movement speed increased 100% but can no longer sidestep/backpedal
    You gain some additional skill that displaces you [leap slam/blink etc like] and deals massive damage in the path on 1m cd
    Class specific skill changes - like in thorgast, ex auto fire pyroblast after each 4 consecutive fireballs
    (those are just examples I came up within 1min, can be done 1000x better while having a team of brains)

    So in the end structure of M+ affixes would be like

    1x Kiss/curse
    1x Hamstring - redesigned
    1x Punishment
    1x Seasonal/mechanical affix
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  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    You also need KSM to upgrade the M+ gear with valor. So suffering through Tyrannical is required even if you don't care for the mount
    I don't really care about that...a 15 is still easy no matter how you slice it but running each mythic twice or running them all on +24 seems a bit much.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post

    First of all, affixes that happen randomly in order to make run more annoying is bad design. It's just a hamstring. Volcanic, Quaking, Explosive, Storming.
    Volcanic and quaking are non-affixes. You don't even have to really change anything when playing with them active.
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Second, affixes that punishes you for doing something makes more sense, however they are still not best design. Overflowing, Sanguine, Necrotic, Raging, Grevious, Bursting, Bolstering.
    Overflowing doesn't make sense at all. I killed the tank more times than I can count in Legion because my serenity crit healed with guardian spirit up. Even more fun if they just healed themselves up to full and I crit healed.
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Third category is actual mechanic affixes - here we start with finally some good designs, Reaping, Prideful, Awakened
    All of them are awful.

  7. #127
    Pandaren Monk Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I don't really care about that...a 15 is still easy no matter how you slice it but running each mythic twice or running them all on +24 seems a bit much.
    However, the goal of the system is that you don't need to run it that way. You could opt to run Fortified keys at +16 then do a lower than +15 run on the tyrannical weeks.

    Or alternatively, let's say you just absolutely hate X dungeon. You could in theory do a much lower key on that (hated) dungeon and gain the difference from doing keys that you do enjoy at the higher level.
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  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Not even remotely true.
    But tyrannical is just a shitty affix that's still way harder than fortified.
    Oh, it’s indeed true to an extent, since dungeons have always the same layout and the same pack compositions and positions.

    Instead of making them fun by varying the layout and the packs compositions and positions Diablo style, we are forced to run the same 8 maps forever. The seasonal affix may be fun… if it would not last 6 months minimum, that makes it boring after one month.

    I almost reached KSM by only pugging, but I completely stopped dungeoning since 20 days or so because I got totally bored and exhausted. 5 months of the same dungeons with difficulty being only given by more hps and more damage from mobs have been enough.

  9. #129
    Pandaren Monk Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Third category is actual mechanic affixes - here we start with finally some good designs, Reaping, Prideful, Awakened
    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    All of them are awful.
    I dunno reaping was heavily weighted to class which could AoE burst. Awakened removed shroud/pots usage by allowing more freedom to skip around as necessary.

    Prideful is the first seasonal affix that provides a buff to the point where the community adopted the strategies to pull trash in such a way to get Pride buff for bosses (especially Tyrannical weeks).

    Better than infested or the beguiling seasonal affix.
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  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    I dunno reaping was heavily weighted to class which could AoE burst.
    I stopped playing a healer in season 2, I only started healing again in season 3 because every fucking reaping I got killed because tanks or dps never reacted fast enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Awakened removed shroud/pots usage by allowing more freedom to skip around as necessary.
    Awakened made me have to start tanking if I wanted to do dungeons or there would be trash who put the portal so we'd pull 3-4 packs when going out. Absolute trash affix. I wanted to heal but if I healed, the tank was completely trash most of the time.
    Last edited by Freighter; 2021-06-04 at 09:15 PM.

  11. #131
    Pandaren Monk Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    I stopped playing a healer in season 2, I only started healing again in season 3 because every fucking reaping I got killed because tanks or dps never reacted fast enough.

    Awakened made me have to start tanking if I wanted to do dungeons or there would be trash who put the portal so we'd pull 3-4 packs when going out. Absolute trash affix. I wanted to heal but if I healed, the tank was completely trash most of the time.
    So then it's not the affix that's the issue but rather your luck (or bad luck as it were) with playing with less skillful players. That doesn't mean that the affixes are bad.
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  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    So then it's not the affix that's the issue but rather your luck (or bad luck as it were) with playing with less skillful players. That doesn't mean that the affixes are bad.
    Has nothing to do with luck. The majority of the player-base are completely trash at playing the game.

    It works out fine when playing with a premade but as soon as you don't play with a premade, you can't play the game unless you occupy the tank role with affixes like pride or awakened.

    Even then, if you tank, people can screw your route up because they don't know how to walk without pulling extra mobs with pride or with awakened, they kill the mob before you're where it's supposed to be.
    Last edited by Freighter; 2021-06-04 at 09:33 PM.

  13. #133
    Blademaster dfsdfvh's Avatar
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    The concept is nice. At least more people will be active during tyran week. I dont really care about the rewards though.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    Volcanic and quaking are non-affixes. You don't even have to really change anything when playing with them active.
    And where did I say anything about changing playstyle here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    Overflowing doesn't make sense at all. I killed the tank more times than I can count in Legion because my serenity crit healed with guardian spirit up. Even more fun if they just healed themselves up to full and I crit healed.
    Cool, again: makes more sense. Your personal anecdotes have nothing to do what category overflowing falls in. Its a punishment affix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    All of them are awful.
    Your opinion is also irrelevant here. All 3 of those affixes shares the same category, affixes that fundamentally changes the way you play dungeons. And that is a good design. Execution is completely different story, people you play with is yet another story.
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  15. #135
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfsdfvh View Post
    The concept is nice. At least more people will be active during tyran week. I dont really care about the rewards though.
    I'm not convinced you will see more people participate to be honest. I think its more ikely you'll get a collective shrug on the part of the player base and mytbic + participation will tank. The reward isn't good enough and the shit to do it just got shittier. I'm sure the people who would already run high keys or run tyrannical will still do so. I'm not sure this will serve to entice more people though.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I'm not convinced you will see more people participate to be honest. I think its more ikely you'll get a collective shrug on the part of the player base and mytbic + participation will tank. The reward isn't good enough and the shit to do it just got shittier. I'm sure the people who would already run high keys or run tyrannical will still do so. I'm not sure this will serve to entice more people though.
    I think it will be a even smaller effect... most people do 1 15 a week for loot and then stop. This really just drags out completion time for ksm. I think the 20 portal reward will have larger net effects.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    And where did I say anything about changing playstyle here?
    They're not annoying, the only thing you have to do is avoid stuff. That's not hard. Most of the time the volcanic even spawns so you can just stand still and not even move even an inch.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Cool, again: makes more sense. Your personal anecdotes have nothing to do what category overflowing falls in. Its a punishment affix.
    Punishment affix? More like You play the wrong class/spec and your heal to bring people back up will kill them if it crits. It was a non-issue as a resto druid, because you couldn't even get overflowing to a high absorb, it was just impossible. One holy word: serenity crit, especially with guardian spirit and the tank had 300% of that crit heal as healing absorb on himself. You could barely play holy priests during that affix. There is a reason why it was removed.

    Even removing all my crit gear, there was still a low chance that I would kill the tank every time I used serenity.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Your opinion is also irrelevant here.
    As is yours then. Because that's all it was, your opinion.
    Last edited by Freighter; 2021-06-05 at 06:55 AM.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    They're not annoying, the only thing you have to do is avoid stuff. That's not hard. Most of the time the volcanic even spawns so you can just stand still and not even move even an inch. .
    Nobody said anything about affixes being hard, what are you even talking about? Dude you completely missed the point.



    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    Punishment affix? More like You play the wrong class/spec and your heal to bring people back up will kill them if it crits. It was a non-issue as a resto druid, because you couldn't even get overflowing to a high absorb, it was just impossible. One holy word: serenity crit, especially with guardian spirit and the tank had 300% of that crit heal as healing absorb on himself. You could barely play holy priests during that affix. There is a reason why it was removed.

    Even removing all my crit gear, there was still a low chance that I would kill the tank every time I used serenity.
    Yes it is a punishment affix. The fact you managed to kill people has nothing to do with it. And the fact you can't discern between design and execution is your fault. Because nobody here is talking about execution.


    In short: your posts has absolutely nothing to do with my post.
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  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Nobody said anything about affixes being hard, what are you even talking about? Dude you completely missed the point.




    Yes it is a punishment affix. The fact you managed to kill people has nothing to do with it. And the fact you can't discern between design and execution is your fault. Because nobody here is talking about execution.


    In short: your posts has absolutely nothing to do with my post.
    It is more telling how you can't see the problem between the two... covenants for example were designed because blizzard after 15 years still hasn't the faintest idea on what its community wants even when said community is screaming at them. So design wise it was to give each player a more personalized feeling...

    In execution it was 95% of the class making the right choice or being benched.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    It is more telling how you can't see the problem between the two... covenants for example were designed because blizzard after 15 years still hasn't the faintest idea on what its community wants even when said community is screaming at them. So design wise it was to give each player a more personalized feeling...

    In execution it was 95% of the class making the right choice or being benched.
    Because there is no problem with covenants. If you want power, you chose power. Covenants are not assigned at random.
    And dont even bring covenants into this discussion as its not related in any way.

    If you do not understand the difference between design and execution then we have nothing to talk about.
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