KSM S2 Requires both Tyrannical and Fortified.

[Tiwack]

Still of the opinion the whole thing is a joke with the timers... Should've left that to the speedrun communities and let players have their fun slogging through +40 all day with a team of tanks and healers if they wanted to.

[Mardux]

there is no difference...

You don't sincerely believe that, right? You don't think things can be better on paper or that plans sometimes have to change?

I'm really trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're able to use common sense and that you're just doing that thing that starts with a T.

[Mardux]

It is more telling how you can't see the problem between the two... covenants for example were designed because blizzard after 15 years still hasn't the faintest idea on what its community wants even when said community is screaming at them. So design wise it was to give each player a more personalized feeling...

In execution it was 95% of the class making the right choice or being benched.

Why aren't you willing to provide a reliable source for you claim?

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if i'm going to make a chair with 4 legs it doesn't suddenly end up with 3 legs when i start making it... if it ends up with 3 legs then that's because i changed my mind about the design on it... not execution... they are both tied together...

Wait... so you actually think that because something didn't happen once that nothing else can happen either?

Ok, so chair didnt magically end up with missing legs (nice hyperbolic comparison there btw). Guess that means your saw blade will never break. Guess that means your wood supplier can never be delayed. Guess that means no one can possibly hit a pole near your shop and cause a power outage. Guess that means there cant be a road closure on your way home forcing you to take a different route.

Do you see how fucking idiot your argument is?

[erifwodahs]

covenants for example were designed because blizzard after 15 years still hasn't the faintest idea on what its community wants even when said community is screaming at them.

No, they listened exactly for what we asked for - meaningful choice. What they did not do - they didn't give us WHAT WE NEED, they gave us what we want.

[erifwodahs]

meaningful choice... lol... there is no choice at all unless you are throwing...

I mean there is no meaningful choice or there are many depending on what perspective are you looking from.
Old talent system? Not a meaningful choice for me, but maybe it is for something. Your class - meaningful choice for some, but just a roadblock for some too - I wish I could just roll a new "Job" like you can in FF so you don't loose your character progression. People asked for something that matters, blizzard gave us that. Thing being that that's not what we need - we needed interesting choices to play around with, but now we are stuck with something what "matters". But again, there are people who don't want Dual Spec in TBC because god forbid you want to play PvE and PvP optimally.

[Crimson Spears]

Why aren't you willing to provide a reliable source for you claim?

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Wait... so you actually think that because something didn't happen once that nothing else can happen either?

Ok, so chair didnt magically end up with missing legs (nice hyperbolic comparison there btw). Guess that means your saw blade will never break. Guess that means your wood supplier can never be delayed. Guess that means no one can possibly hit a pole near your shop and cause a power outage. Guess that means there cant be a road closure on your way home forcing you to take a different route.

Do you see how fucking idiot your argument is?

I can show you the armory details for months showing what players have done but your gonna handwave it away even though its hard data... Why play the show me a source game when you know you won't accept any source?

Your trying to turn this argument into one about terms...

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I mean there is no meaningful choice or there are many depending on what perspective are you looking from.
Old talent system? Not a meaningful choice for me, but maybe it is for something. Your class - meaningful choice for some, but just a roadblock for some too - I wish I could just roll a new "Job" like you can in FF so you don't loose your character progression. People asked for something that matters, blizzard gave us that. Thing being that that's not what we need - we needed interesting choices to play around with, but now we are stuck with something what "matters". But again, there are people who don't want Dual Spec in TBC because god forbid you want to play PvE and PvP optimally.

They gave us a power choice...to a community that back when talent trees were a thing refused to use anything beyond one build per class...

If blizzard made covenants nothing more then a cosmetic choice I would argue they would of been seen as a success by the community. Players don't really want power customization if anything most players want balance at the cost of being unique.

[erifwodahs]

If blizzard made covenants nothing more then a cosmetic choice I would argue they would of been seen as a success by the community. Players don't really want power customization if anything most players want balance at the cost of being unique.

So exactly what players want =/= what players need.
If it carried no power people would still scream - give us meaningful choice.

True meaningful choice has to come from the story, but not gimp you in power. FF community is story driven, I have seen people reacting to some real bad voice acting scenes with tears - maybe for the show tho, because I don't believe that some old in-game cutschene could make someone cry especially with that VO/rigid character animations. None the less, people are heavily invested in the story.
And here is WoWs problem - we just leave our allies to sit and do nothing for few expansions so there is no bond beyond one patch or in best case on expansion. Whole story is "connected" but feels very disconnected because in best case a follow up to a story comes 3 expansions later if not longer. So yeah, we beat the shit out of Naga and Old Gods, but what will happen now to their followers - lets see in 6 years.

[kaminaris]

if i'm going to make a chair with 4 legs it doesn't suddenly end up with 3 legs when i start making it... if it ends up with 3 legs then that's because i changed my mind about the design on it... not execution... they are both tied together... execution follows design...

you can't detach execution from design as if it's separate....

Is this some farcical joke?

Ok lets destroy your example.

Design: Chair with 4 legs

Execution 1: all legs are same length and from same material
Execution 2: 3 legs have equal length and 1 leg is half the length
Execution 3: 1 leg is made of aluminum, 2nd leg is made of wood, 3rd leg is made of glass, 4th leg is made of paper
Execution 4: all legs have same length but they are made of clay

ALL of them fits the design. Yet execution 2,3,4 is garbage.

Now example of wow affixes.

Design: While in combat, enemies periodically cause gouts of flame to erupt beneath the feet of distant players.

Execution 1: Volcanics are spawned at 5s intervals, deals ~20% of your hp in radius of 5 yards.
Execution 1: Volcanics are spawned at 0.5s intervals, deals ~99% of your hp in radius of 50 yards.


If you still dont understand why execution is vastly different from design itself then there is no hope.

[tomten]

And what would be the better alternative? More impactful stuff, like, more seasonal affixes?
.

I'm not a game dev so really don't have all the answers (or any really) but personally?
I would rather prefer more affixes present instead than tyr/fortified.
Give us 3 random affixes(maybe even go crazy and have 4 random) + 1 seasonal.
Will it probably make some weeks stupid hard? Sure, but it would also be fun and add actual variety where no week is the same.

[kaminaris]

all the things you mention are design and the execution of that design... what the covenants are, is by design...

Nope they are not. Design does not force you specify every possible thing that human can only imagine. And even with that, issues can still happen ex due to faulty parts or even machine errors. Like the VW engines that kept breaking the cylinder head due to bad metal alloy proportions.

So you are wrong. Design and execution is completely separate thing.
Affixes are actually perfect example of this. Their description is vague and sometimes blizzard changes how they work because EXECUTION is bad (like making certain mobs not trigger certain affixes)

[kaminaris]

yes they are...

No they are not. Examples above and this is really not up for discussion.

I don't even know how is it possible to think design and execution is the same thing, blows my mind.

Volcanic Plume will erupt, dealing damage equal to 20% of the player's health to any player standing within 2 yards of the Plume. Both boss and trash mobs will cause Volcanic Plumes to form.

Execution 1: knocks you 10 yards in the air
Execution 2: knocks you up to 200 yards away

Design still the same.

[Tziva]

Please get things back on topic. We don't need the entire thread derailed by a semantics debate between just a few people.

[ifrah]

With prideful gone I'd say tyrannical weeks aren't going to be as loathed as before. Obviously fortifieds are going to remain as the push weeks, but whatever the gear progress and key tuning will be, wouldn't see this as the end of the world for the semi-serious mount-hungry champions.

[Tziva]

With prideful gone I'd say tyrannical weeks aren't going to be as loathed as before.

In what way, do you think? Most people have the opposite concern; prideful seems to makes Tyrannical bosses a bit less painful, not moreso.

Bosses that already are extremely challenging at high key levels could become even worse without Prideful to push people through the fights, unless there's some tuning done or the S2 affixes end up stronger, which remains to be seen. But even if they end up fairly powerful, it will still depend on whether you can pick up enough of them before the harder bosses, as well.

I'm curious the thoughts behind your statement; is there something not being considered?

[Keashaa]

Players are used to pride for specific bosses (like Hakkar) in tyrannical weeks. So there are some options:

- Anima powers must be as strong as the prideful buff for those bosses
- Those bosses need nerfs to offset the missing prideful buff
- Do another change to the way tyrannical works

Of course not all bosses can be the same difficulty (and should not be) and there will always be groups that can time a +x dungeon without ease and being unable to time another dungeon because of one boss being a wall. But currently the difficulty range of bosses in a +x tyrannical dungeon is too big (some feel just like a bullet sponge without any thread while others are so deadly that one fault will wipe your group).

[Depakote]

I'm glad I quit retail, the crap devs are pulling now just to get them to interact with their crappy game is honestly never ending. I honestly question why people still play retail.

[ifrah]

In what way, do you think? Most people have the opposite concern; prideful seems to makes Tyrannical bosses a bit less painful, not moreso.

Bosses that already are extremely challenging at high key levels could become even worse without Prideful to push people through the fights, unless there's some tuning done or the S2 affixes end up stronger, which remains to be seen. But even if they end up fairly powerful, it will still depend on whether you can pick up enough of them before the harder bosses, as well.

I'm curious the thoughts behind your statement; is there something not being considered?

Prideful gives tremendous boost for bosses, true. What is disliked by many people (me to certain degree included) is that runs become extremely reliant on both routing and not fucking up the boss.
When pushing the highest keys within your reference level, obviously full wipes can be expected to scuff the key. My statement however is that prideful is far too dominant as an affix and makes the whole run quite prideful-centered.

Remove pridefuls from the equation altogether, and yes - if everything else remains static, tyrannical weeks will become far worse. The bold assumption I have made here, however, is that Blizzard will do enough tinkering to patch this void once 9.1 hits.

[Keashaa]

I honestly question why people still play retail.

And I honesty question why people post in a forum about a game they hate. Such a waste of time.

[Depakote]

And I honesty question why people post in a forum about a game they hate. Such a waste of time.

That's easy to answer. Because I have put so much of my life into this game that it's hard to just walk away. I still have a tiny bit of hope that they can right this ship before it goes under but that hope is fading quickly.

[Tziva]

Prideful gives tremendous boost for bosses, true. What is disliked by many people (me to certain degree included) is that runs become extremely reliant on both routing and not fucking up the boss.
When pushing the highest keys within your reference level, obviously full wipes can be expected to scuff the key. My statement however is that prideful is far too dominant as an affix and makes the whole run quite prideful-centered.

Just to clarify, I was asking how you thought Prideful going away will make people like Tyrannical more, not necessarily why Prideful can be problematic. That part I definitely am aware of!

(I personally don't dislike Prideful, certainly not more than some past season affixes, but it definitely can be a frustrating affix for those reasons!)

Remove pridefuls from the equation altogether, and yes - if everything else remains static, tyrannical weeks will become far worse. The bold assumption I have made here, however, is that Blizzard will do enough tinkering to patch this void once 9.1 hits.

For my own part, I am pretty cynical that they will do anything dramatic enough to make people dislike Tyrannical less. Maybe if we're lucky, it will be equally awful rather than worse.

I do expect a few rounds of nerfs to certain bosses early into the 9.1 patch as people start pushing again, but who knows how significant they will be.