Page 6 of 10 FirstFirst ...
4
5
6
7
8
... LastLast
  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Thats what i hear often from mediocre players that tend to die often.

    Every mechanic that actually require reaction time = bad.
    Best solution to beat bosses? Overgear them
    Best strategy? Increase dps

    The thing is wow had skill based bosses, shame they are not designing more like that.

    For the record, I do believe that some dps requirement should be a thing so you cant actually kill bosses with 5+ tanks but it should be possible with some decent gear and 1-2 players dead mid fight. So less emphasize on numbers, more emphasize on reaction time. Maybe even introduce "Mythic+" that doesn't give higher rewards but reaction time required gets tighter and avoidable mechanics deal far more damage.
    This does not compute. You want to be allowed to kill bosses by doing mechanics only... except you also want to be allowed to have people die to said mechanics. What you're describing is just wanting easier bosses because you both want people to be allowed to die and want skill with your spec to not matter. Not to mention that reaction time mechanics just don't work well in WoW thanks to the engine/netcode/whatever.
    Play other games that actually work like you want, WoW won't and shouldn't be changed towards that. Destiny 2 is probably a good bet, it has basically no DPS checks (burn phases are just a question of holding down left mouse button) and is full of platforming/reaction/communication stuff.
    Last edited by Tradu; 2021-05-28 at 10:49 PM.
    Voidshuffle
    <Echoes>
    Laughing Skull-EU

  2. #102
    Pandaren Monk Redroniksre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Cambridge, Ontario
    Posts
    1,776
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    And I remember people going off in FF14 Shadowbringer like a week into the expansion at that fairy primal fight, which was a mandatory story fight so you always get new players who have never done it before.

    Fact is: Assholes are everywhere.
    Yes i remember that fight, it was a pain in the ass for being a mandatory one. Took like 4 or 5 tries before we finished it when i first got to it. That said, i find far more assholes on WoW than others, probably because other games do more towards banning for it, when WoW kind of just lets it happen or ignores it.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Redroniksre View Post
    Yes i remember that fight, it was a pain in the ass for being a mandatory one. Took like 4 or 5 tries before we finished it when i first got to it. That said, i find far more assholes on WoW than others, probably because other games do more towards banning for it, when WoW kind of just lets it happen or ignores it.
    I can find five times more assholes in WoW on a 'good day' than on a 'bad day' like that mentioned above in FFXIV.

    I'm not a 'bad', either. I've spent plenty of time contributing, not being carried, in raid groups in my myriad days in WoW.

  4. #104
    Scarab Lord
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    One path
    Posts
    4,377
    Games that go the distance often turn into speedrun sims, the passion is there for the fantasy and player relations, it's just harder to express and measure than cold numbers that can't be argued with/reward bragging rights. In the end the community chews itself out.

    E: To your second question: it is THE reason why stuff like dmg meter addons isn't part of the standard game already. It's a distraction from these things.
    Last edited by Tiwack; 2021-05-29 at 03:49 AM.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    This does not compute. You want to be allowed to kill bosses by doing mechanics only... except you also want to be allowed to have people die to said mechanics. What you're describing is just wanting easier bosses because you both want people to be allowed to die and want skill with your spec to not matter. Not to mention that reaction time mechanics just don't work well in WoW thanks to the engine/netcode/whatever.
    Play other games that actually work like you want, WoW won't and shouldn't be changed towards that. Destiny 2 is probably a good bet, it has basically no DPS checks (burn phases are just a question of holding down left mouse button) and is full of platforming/reaction/communication stuff.
    It does compute. Wow had bosses like that. What I am describing is nowhere near of what you think I describe. Destiny 2 is nowhere near of what I want.
    Use more of your imagination.

    My Ideal boss would be tight reaction time during entire fight. Like unless you start moving immediately after some mechanic is going, you die. Some more diverse mechanic with tight reaction time that offers bonus when done correctly, and you die if you miss more than 1 (multi sided strike, more often).

    Good example is hansgar and franzok. Thats probably one of the best bosses I progressed since MoP. Could be made even tighter (less reaction time). And quite possibly without patterns you can learn so every fight requires you to use your eyes.

    Actually now that I think of. I would love more raids like BRF (with the exception of blackhand, gruul, kagraz) but harder in forms of reaction time.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Good example is hansgar and franzok. Thats probably one of the best bosses I progressed since MoP. Could be made even tighter (less reaction time). And quite possibly without patterns you can learn so every fight requires you to use your eyes.
    That...was a meme boss. It was...intentionally a meme boss. It's the first boss of the raid, designed to be the easiest. Like, I get it... different strokes, different folks but of all the encounters in BRF... Hans and Franz? Yikes.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    That...was a meme boss. It was...intentionally a meme boss. It's the first boss of the raid, designed to be the easiest. Like, I get it... different strokes, different folks but of all the encounters in BRF... Hans and Franz? Yikes.
    Have you even played back then? Nobody went H&F as their first boss. Also guilds did struggle on it. Plenty of room to make it even harder by cutting reaction time.
    Meme boss LOL.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Have you even played back then? Nobody went H&F as their first boss. Also guilds did struggle on it. Plenty of room to make it even harder by cutting reaction time.
    Meme boss LOL.


    Yes, did you?

    Looking at wowprogress data, it looks like a lot of guilds went Oregorger/Gruul first but H&F was very clearly entry level raid encounter difficulty. The only thing remotely difficult about H&F was rando raid members getting stomped but the ability was pretty well telegraphed and could be mostly negated by proper raid movement.

  9. #109
    Funny people saying ffxiv punishes you for being good. Because no it does not. It punishes you for being a shit head or trying to shove your epeen down the throat of others who simply put don't want it.

    For offering advice, not only is it allowed, it is even encouraged in many channels. It's how you go about it that counts. Nobody being polite and/or courteous when offering advice will get banned, ever for the reason of giving advice. Being an assholes when pushing advice is a first class ticket out of the game and fir good reason.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Have you even played back then? Nobody went H&F as their first boss. Also guilds did struggle on it. Plenty of room to make it even harder by cutting reaction time.
    Meme boss LOL.
    On mythic it was the easiest by a country mile. Guilds who were only capable of killing 1-3 bosses on mythic went there first, I know because I was in one of those guilds and yeah, the fight was a joke.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Funny people saying ffxiv punishes you for being good. Because no it does not. It punishes you for being a shit head or trying to shove your epeen down the throat of others who simply put don't want it.

    For offering advice, not only is it allowed, it is even encouraged in many channels. It's how you go about it that counts. Nobody being polite and/or courteous when offering advice will get banned, ever for the reason of giving advice. Being an assholes when pushing advice is a first class ticket out of the game and fir good reason.
    That's the real issue those people have with the game. It has nothing to do with being good, they want to be able to go postal on their party members and kick them the fuck out of their group for having the audacity not meeting their standards. When the game don't allow you do behave like a complete asshole they claim that they're "punished for being good". I believe that's textbook narcissism.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post

    Yes, did you?

    Looking at wowprogress data, it looks like a lot of guilds went Oregorger/Gruul first but H&F was very clearly entry level raid encounter difficulty. The only thing remotely difficult about H&F was rando raid members getting stomped but the ability was pretty well telegraphed and could be mostly negated by proper raid movement.
    Oh the quick backpedaling or bad memory. Usually H&F was at ~50-100 wipes depending on guild, and still, is irrelevant as it was one of the best boss designs. The one I want. Reaction time based, not arbitrary number artificial "difficulty" that gets hilariously easier as your gear goes up. Can't skip phases, still have to do mechanics. Now remove the patterns, make it tighter and would be perfect. Operator was good example too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    On mythic it was the easiest by a country mile. Guilds who were only capable of killing 1-3 bosses on mythic went there first, I know because I was in one of those guilds and yeah, the fight was a joke.
    It wasnt tho. Oregorger, darmac and gruul was a lot easier. Those were jokes. H&F was first that gave us any trouble. Think we had like ~50 wipes on it or so.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Oh the quick backpedaling or bad memory. Usually H&F was at ~50-100 wipes depending on guild, and still, is irrelevant as it was one of the best boss designs. The one I want. Reaction time based, not arbitrary number artificial "difficulty" that gets hilariously easier as your gear goes up. Can't skip phases, still have to do mechanics. Now remove the patterns, make it tighter and would be perfect. Operator was good example too.
    Jesus fuck dude, excuse the shit out of me for not having crystal clear memory of raid patterns from 6 years ago. The point I had remains: It wasn't a particularly interesting encounter, imo. I'm glad you liked it but I doubt (outside of you) there are tons of people in the "H&F BEST RAID ENCOUNTER EVR" fanclub.

  13. #113
    Nope. Addons bring convenience and tools to increase performance. There has always been a reliance on performance in WoW and its likely just the natural progression of the games at the time and mechanics that relied more on numbers then other stuff. Design evolved where numbers (resists, stats, etc) are less important and countering the mechanics are more important.

    The focus is also there because of the skill gap and how optimized versus not optimized can change how large that skill gap is. This isn't a bad thing as everyone should be playing to the best they can and should be willing to learn how to play better. Addons and third-party tools like guides, sims, etc can help with this. The modern game though is less about numbers because the checks are not very strict unless you are in higher content.

    Look at how you casually get gear that is Mythic +5/6 and just below normal. Normal is tuned to be cleared with gear less then that. There are players though that put to high of an emphasis on those numbers when they really are not that important over all. They are just important to gauge the performance of the player and areas to improve.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  14. #114
    The value of anything you obtain in WoW is determined by relational value. This means that it’s value depends on how many others have obtained the same thing.

    This means that you’re constantly looking to get an edge over your competition. High dps, effective healing, efficient routes and tasklists are all ways to obtain said edge. The game becomes more about focus on that edge, than about being a hero.

    This was the case in vanilla too, but people over time have gotten better at quantifying their edge.

  15. #115
    1. I stopped caring about fantasy in WoW when they kind of killed the world part. Layering, broken day-night cycles, teleports everywhere. There's only so much gaminess that you can introduce into the core loop, before you kill the suspense of disbelief.

    2. Addons is one of the WoWs best features. I wouldn't play it if the game was limited to the default UI. There's no way. And I don't believe you can even build a default UI that would cater to such a large audience with so many different kinds of players. I'm not even talking about DBM or damage meter.
    Just the fact that some specs have so many buffs, procs and rotation quirks to keep track of makes the default UI very frustrating to play with. I'm sure there are people who can do it, but information clarity is a big deal to me.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    DPS meters led to DPS rankings led to Min-Maxing being substantially easier. Eventually this snowballed from the world first chasers down to basically the entire playerbase. Now players are more concerned about a .1% DPS gain than they are about anything.
    This. People will chase the tiniest of performance increases to the point it makes them hate the game. Legion and the "forced to run MoS till my eyes rot for AP." BFA and the "forced to run islands till my eyes rot for AP then grind for perfect corruptions." Even today I have people who have swapped covenants four or five times whenever the meta shifted. They complain about the difficulty of doing so constantly in guild chat but miss the underlying problem. You're either optimal or trash with nothing in between. Come to think of it this goes even further back to WoD when we had the trifecta thing. Instead of seeing the gems and bonus stats as gravy in addition to the meal they saw them as without them the meal wasn't even complete.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by agm114r View Post
    Or do what FFXIV does. You can read the combatlog as much as you want, but hassling/pointing out/etc of other players using same can get you banned. i.e. dick-measure all you want, but don't talk about any measuring of dicks not your own.
    Nobody really does that in WoW anymore. You just get kicked from groups, if you're one of the reasons you fail the group activity.
    Does FF14 even have comparable hard dungeon/raid content?

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    It does compute. Wow had bosses like that. What I am describing is nowhere near of what you think I describe. Destiny 2 is nowhere near of what I want.
    Use more of your imagination.

    My Ideal boss would be tight reaction time during entire fight. Like unless you start moving immediately after some mechanic is going, you die. Some more diverse mechanic with tight reaction time that offers bonus when done correctly, and you die if you miss more than 1 (multi sided strike, more often).

    Good example is hansgar and franzok. Thats probably one of the best bosses I progressed since MoP. Could be made even tighter (less reaction time). And quite possibly without patterns you can learn so every fight requires you to use your eyes.

    Actually now that I think of. I would love more raids like BRF (with the exception of blackhand, gruul, kagraz) but harder in forms of reaction time.
    That doesn't work in WoW, mechanics that require very quick reaction times fall apart once you realize that some classes are infinitely better at dealing with them and that the game just isn't built to update player positions etc as quickly as would be required. And the entire point of WoW raids is that you eventually learn the patterns. Even Hans & Franz in BRF wasn't a quick reaction time boss, it was learning the "dance" and doing it correctly. The mythic mechanic was literally the opposite of a reaction time mechanic, it was a planned, methodical dance.

    And again, you claimed you want to be able to kill those bosses with people dead. So not only do you want DPS checks gone, you want people to be allowed to fuck up the one thing that remains (mechanics) and still kill the boss. It's absurd.
    Last edited by Tradu; 2021-05-29 at 10:58 AM.
    Voidshuffle
    <Echoes>
    Laughing Skull-EU

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Nobody really does that in WoW anymore. You just get kicked from groups, if you're one of the reasons you fail the group activity.
    Does FF14 even have comparable hard dungeon/raid content?
    The dungeon content is a lot more relaxed, think WoW before m+. The raids on the other hand are very hard at the highest difficulty. People say that it's on the same level as mythic raids but I haven't done them myself so I can't confirm.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Roanda View Post
    1)

    Numbers are 100% essential for a RPG to exist but is anyone else getting the feeling the community of WoW turned into something weird?

    My question is:
    "Do you feel like WoW turned more into a numbers and performance check than a fantasy game?"

    Im not saying this people are enjoying the game wrong.
    To some this is the best part of the game.

    But does anyone else feel weirded out by it a little?

    --------

    2)

    If you dont mind, i also have another question

    "Addons"

    Do you think they are the reason why the WoW community ended like this?
    wow is atm glorified excell spreadsheet thats what it is .

    anything not meta not bis ? complete garbage you cannot get anywhere because of how crazy overtuned game is in every single aspec

    no wonder people give up on retail and swap to much easier versions - classic and tbc

    people enjoy easy games that anyone can play - retail does not provide this atm sadly

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •