Community: Less about Fantasy more about numbers and performance

[VinceVega]

1)

Numbers are 100% essential for a RPG to exist but is anyone else getting the feeling the community of WoW turned into something weird?

My question is:
"Do you feel like WoW turned more into a numbers and performance check than a fantasy game?"

Im not saying this people are enjoying the game wrong.
To some this is the best part of the game.

But does anyone else feel weirded out by it a little?

--------

2)

If you dont mind, i also have another question

"Addons"

Do you think they are the reason why the WoW community ended like this?

SOME Addons made the game to easy for skilled players whcih in turn led to the game becoming harder and harder, leaving lesser skilled players behind. Because not even addons can make up for that but make the game trivial for more skilled players. (DBM etc.) Look at the difference between Mythic Nathria compared to naxx in vanilla.... these are WORLDS of difference in difficulty and yes i actually played both. You can even take heroic Nathria. Even that is harder than anything in Classic and tbc. Except maybe SWP with the wrong comp but i am not sure about it until we see it again.

I do not think that Details/recount have a adverse effect on the game. Actually the opposite. People who think the are a gift from god can see where they actually stand and try to be better.

[kaminaris]

Then DPS is actively detrimental which is absolute dogshit design. This tier had a bunch of DPS stop fights and it's horrible. Going AFK in order to get the right push timings is miserable.
The DPS checks on progress are usually based around the strategy you're using rather than the game having explicit DPS checks. And you should not be able to kill bosses with multiple dead people that you don't have rezzes for, because that means you've had something like 3-5 deaths already. The game is already extremely mechanics-focused rather than DPS focused compared to the past.

What are you talking about? Whatever you need to stop dps or not has nothing to do with mechanics dependent on boss health. Its the mechanics overlapping issue. Often caused by mixed boss hp + timer mechanics.

DPS checks are simply lazy, uninspired and bad boss designs.

Properly done fights can have boss dependent mechanics AND timer mechanics with no overlap issues.

Also its false that it's more mechanics heavy than in the past. Its both more mechanics and much more tighter dps checks.

- - - Updated - - -

It doesn't because FF punishes you for trying to be good. Damage meters are forbidden and poking a person about their performance will lead to a ban. The only thing this leads to is good players leaving the game because they aren't allowed to improve and are forced to constantly carry weaker players.
It's a great game for those weaker players because they can do what they want without fear of big bad elitists telling them to L2P, but for people who actually have fun pushing themselves and joining a group of equally skilled people, its quite terrible.

Haha, that one is pretty good. No. FFXIV does not punish you for trying to be good. Plenty of people use fflogs to do that. Telling other how they should play the game is discouraged and rightfully so. Nobody likes advice Andy's.

If someone do not want to get better, its his decision, period. If he want's to improve he will seek advice himself.

If you do not want to "carry" "weaker players", find a guild.

[Tradu]

What are you talking about? Whatever you need to stop dps or not has nothing to do with mechanics dependent on boss health. Its the mechanics overlapping issue. Often caused by mixed boss hp + timer mechanics.

DPS checks are simply lazy, uninspired and bad boss designs.

Properly done fights can have boss dependent mechanics AND timer mechanics with no overlap issues.

Also its false that it's more mechanics heavy than in the past. Its both more mechanics and much more tighter dps checks.

- - - Updated - - -



Haha, that one is pretty good. No. FFXIV does not punish you for trying to be good. Plenty of people use fflogs to do that. Telling other how they should play the game is discouraged and rightfully so. Nobody likes advice Andy's.

If someone do not want to get better, its his decision, period. If he want's to improve he will seek advice himself.

If you do not want to "carry" "weaker players", find a guild.

You said mechanics should trigger based on boss HP so you can't skip them. That means if your DPS is too high they'll just happen in rapid succession or even at the same time, which is unplayable, meaning you need to stop DPS to avoid that happening. It's an unavoidable consequence of your "solution".
DPS checks are much more lenient now than in the past, at least relative to player skill. Enrage timers are basically never a concern anymore, even on Patchwerky bosses you just need to make it to the end with everybody alive and not completely AFK.
Requiring people to do both mechanics and play their spec well is the only way to design good bosses. Making DPS a non-issue removes the spec side of it ruins boss design. That's why phases where you just walk around avoiding stuff (Jaina 1st intermission, KJ 1st intermission, Council of Blood dance phase) are boring, awful phases and shouldn't exist.

[Redroniksre]

It's a double edged sword though. Sure it's nice for the bad player who can just be ignorant and bad and get into a group, do that dungeon, beat it in half an hour and feel like they did something without having someone pester them about their performance. But it's also super annoying for the rest of the group who want to do a quick dungeon and then have some dps player join and do like 40% of their max performance because they can't properly press 1-2-3 in a row.

That's the whole thing about FF14. It's super easy, except for the one difficulty that isn't super easy. 99% of the game is so easy that half the group carries the other half of the group and everyone beats content. That's great for the ones getting carried but it's annoying for those who do the carrying.



The problem with "toxicity" is that people use a very narrow definition for it and will disagree with you because they think "toxicity" is being mean in chat. But toxicity is so much more than that. Being toxic means you are poison to your team. It's any intentional behavior to sabotage the team and make it weaker. It's any intentional behavior that ruins the fun of the rest of the group. If I go into a dungeon group as Shadow Priest but am not using shadow form because I want to RP as a shadow priest who is scared of shadows, then I'm toxic to the rest of the group (unless it's a specific RP group).

Afaik, this "toxicity" problem in FF14 is mostly prevalent in the west, not in Japan. Because in Japan people have the mentality of doing their best for the team, while in the west people have a "I do what I want, fuck the team" mentality. This protection of bad players isn't really a big problem when people inherently try to be the best they can be. But it leads to some really toxic cesspool when people who just press random buttons and freestyle their rotation hold the rest of the group back. Especially when you get multiple players like that into one group.

I mean i see far more toxicity in WoW than any of the other MMOs i have played. Keep in mind this is the perspective of someone who tends not to venture into group finder stuff in WoW, so this is all from queue pug experience. While i agree that the toxicity is present in basically every game, the shadow priest example is far more of a "friendly" toxicity to new players and the more common player than being an asshole style is. I don't play much anymore, since Shadowlands lacks any real content for me, but i still remember having a healer druid go off in Plaguefall normals two days after launch because the group didn't know the mechanics.

[Wuusah]

but i still remember having a healer druid go off in Plaguefall normals two days after launch because the group didn't know the mechanics.

And I remember people going off in FF14 Shadowbringer like a week into the expansion at that fairy primal fight, which was a mandatory story fight so you always get new players who have never done it before.

Fact is: Assholes are everywhere.

[kaminaris]

You said mechanics should trigger based on boss HP so you can't skip them. That means if your DPS is too high they'll just happen in rapid succession or even at the same time, which is unplayable, meaning you need to stop DPS to avoid that happening. It's an unavoidable consequence of your "solution".
DPS checks are much more lenient now than in the past, at least relative to player skill. Enrage timers are basically never a concern anymore, even on Patchwerky bosses you just need to make it to the end with everybody alive and not completely AFK.
Requiring people to do both mechanics and play their spec well is the only way to design good bosses. Making DPS a non-issue removes the spec side of it ruins boss design. That's why phases where you just walk around avoiding stuff (Jaina 1st intermission, KJ 1st intermission, Council of Blood dance phase) are boring, awful phases and shouldn't exist.

I literally provided examples of what i call good skill check mechanics - multi sided strike. So apart from usuall dodge shit do damage, at 2-3-4 boss hp breakpoints you have actual mechanics.

Requiring people to do both mechanics and play their spec well is the only way to design good bosses.

No. Its lazy and uninspired design. Proper boss fights should not be about meeting "gear checks". They should be about meeting reaction time checks.

[Relapses]

1)

Numbers are 100% essential for a RPG to exist but is anyone else getting the feeling the community of WoW turned into something weird?

My question is:
"Do you feel like WoW turned more into a numbers and performance check than a fantasy game?"

...always has been.

Im not saying this people are enjoying the game wrong.
To some this is the best part of the game.

But does anyone else feel weirded out by it a little?

There is no "right" way to play WoW. Some people care about numbers. Some people collect mounts. Some people install jMorph and spend 24 hours a day in the Goldshire Inn on Moon Guard. The game's appeal and scope is broad for a reason. This broad appeal is what has kept the game relevant almost two decades. You might personally find the RP elements to be more important than the performance aspects but that doesn't invalidate the way anybody else chooses to play the game.

2)

If you dont mind, i also have another question

"Addons"

Do you think they are the reason why the WoW community ended like this?

Add-ons are fine and always have been fine. The video game purists who think add-ons are detrimental to the game would be better served playing another fucking game than trying to advocate against something which has been intrinsic to WoW's DNA since the beginning.

[Echo of Soul]

No. Its lazy and uninspired design. Proper boss fights should not be about meeting "gear checks". They should be about meeting reaction time checks.

Maybe RPGs aren't for you then? Skill has always only been a part of the equation, not the whole thing.

[Tradu]

I literally provided examples of what i call good skill check mechanics - multi sided strike. So apart from usuall dodge shit do damage, at 2-3-4 boss hp breakpoints you have actual mechanics.


No. Its lazy and uninspired design. Proper boss fights should not be about meeting "gear checks". They should be about meeting reaction time checks.

WoW is not the game for you, clearly. Try playing Destiny 2 or something instead, it'll suit you much better. Multi sided strike was a dogshit mechanic, assuming you mean the one on Jadefire Masters. WoW doesn't update your facing frequently or correctly enough for that kind of mechanic to work well. Not to mention that it's one of the garbage mechanics where all you do is some dumb minigame without having to play your spec.
Playing your WoW spec is one of the skill checks that every boss needs to have, and the degree to which the game tests that has gone down over time in favor of more gimmicky dancing mechanics (just like what you want more of). Claiming they're just gear checks is hilariously disingenuous.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

Maybe RPGs aren't for you then? Skill has always only been a part of the equation, not the whole thing.

There are RPGs where it can be overcome with skill. The Soulsborne games are a perfect example of that. WoW is certainly not one of those, though, since receiving damage is unavoidable.

[Cosmic Janitor]

There is no "right" way to play WoW. Some people care about numbers. Some people collect mounts. Some people install jMorph and spend 24 hours a day in the Goldshire Inn on Moon Guard. The game's appeal and scope is broad for a reason. This broad appeal is what has kept the game relevant almost two decades. You might personally find the RP elements to be more important than the performance aspects but that doesn't invalidate the way anybody else chooses to play the game.

Well, at least Blizzard thinks that this is not the proper way to play the game .

[deenman]

The last one made objective sense (Fewer people complete the hardest achievements, bit obvious, but at least it's true), the rest was just a lot of name-calling, "Being bad", "Dumbing down", "Casual carebears", the exact kind of phrases that make people think hardcore players are all toxic people.

not being handed free loot for zero effort is hardcore?LUL stay bad

[kaminaris]

Maybe RPGs aren't for you then? Skill has always only been a part of the equation, not the whole thing.

Thats what i hear often from mediocre players that tend to die often.

Every mechanic that actually require reaction time = bad.
Best solution to beat bosses? Overgear them
Best strategy? Increase dps

The thing is wow had skill based bosses, shame they are not designing more like that.

For the record, I do believe that some dps requirement should be a thing so you cant actually kill bosses with 5+ tanks but it should be possible with some decent gear and 1-2 players dead mid fight. So less emphasize on numbers, more emphasize on reaction time. Maybe even introduce "Mythic+" that doesn't give higher rewards but reaction time required gets tighter and avoidable mechanics deal far more damage.

[MoanaLisa]

It doesn't because FF punishes you for trying to be good. Damage meters are forbidden and poking a person about their performance will lead to a ban. The only thing this leads to is good players leaving the game because they aren't allowed to improve and are forced to constantly carry weaker players.

Nonsense. Anyone can improve while keeping quiet. There isn't an MMO on the planet including WoW where there isn't a vast amount of better players carrying weaker players. The only complaint here is that "good players" can't get hostile with those they deem unworthy.

[Echo of Soul]

Nonsense. Anyone can improve while keeping quiet. There isn't an MMO on the planet including WoW where there isn't a vast amount of better players carrying weaker players. The only complaint here is that "good players" can't get hostile with those they deem unworthy.

But if you can't get hostile how are you supposed to let people know that you're better than them?? /s

[Tradu]

Thats what i hear often from mediocre players that tend to die often.

Every mechanic that actually require reaction time = bad.
Best solution to beat bosses? Overgear them
Best strategy? Increase dps

The thing is wow had skill based bosses, shame they are not designing more like that.

For the record, I do believe that some dps requirement should be a thing so you cant actually kill bosses with 5+ tanks but it should be possible with some decent gear and 1-2 players dead mid fight. So less emphasize on numbers, more emphasize on reaction time. Maybe even introduce "Mythic+" that doesn't give higher rewards but reaction time required gets tighter and avoidable mechanics deal far more damage.

This does not compute. You want to be allowed to kill bosses by doing mechanics only... except you also want to be allowed to have people die to said mechanics. What you're describing is just wanting easier bosses because you both want people to be allowed to die and want skill with your spec to not matter. Not to mention that reaction time mechanics just don't work well in WoW thanks to the engine/netcode/whatever.
Play other games that actually work like you want, WoW won't and shouldn't be changed towards that. Destiny 2 is probably a good bet, it has basically no DPS checks (burn phases are just a question of holding down left mouse button) and is full of platforming/reaction/communication stuff.

[Redroniksre]

And I remember people going off in FF14 Shadowbringer like a week into the expansion at that fairy primal fight, which was a mandatory story fight so you always get new players who have never done it before.

Fact is: Assholes are everywhere.

Yes i remember that fight, it was a pain in the ass for being a mandatory one. Took like 4 or 5 tries before we finished it when i first got to it. That said, i find far more assholes on WoW than others, probably because other games do more towards banning for it, when WoW kind of just lets it happen or ignores it.

[Tiwack]

Games that go the distance often turn into speedrun sims, the passion is there for the fantasy and player relations, it's just harder to express and measure than cold numbers that can't be argued with/reward bragging rights. In the end the community chews itself out.

E: To your second question: it is THE reason why stuff like dmg meter addons isn't part of the standard game already. It's a distraction from these things.

[kaminaris]

This does not compute. You want to be allowed to kill bosses by doing mechanics only... except you also want to be allowed to have people die to said mechanics. What you're describing is just wanting easier bosses because you both want people to be allowed to die and want skill with your spec to not matter. Not to mention that reaction time mechanics just don't work well in WoW thanks to the engine/netcode/whatever.
Play other games that actually work like you want, WoW won't and shouldn't be changed towards that. Destiny 2 is probably a good bet, it has basically no DPS checks (burn phases are just a question of holding down left mouse button) and is full of platforming/reaction/communication stuff.

It does compute. Wow had bosses like that. What I am describing is nowhere near of what you think I describe. Destiny 2 is nowhere near of what I want.
Use more of your imagination.

My Ideal boss would be tight reaction time during entire fight. Like unless you start moving immediately after some mechanic is going, you die. Some more diverse mechanic with tight reaction time that offers bonus when done correctly, and you die if you miss more than 1 (multi sided strike, more often).

Good example is hansgar and franzok. Thats probably one of the best bosses I progressed since MoP. Could be made even tighter (less reaction time). And quite possibly without patterns you can learn so every fight requires you to use your eyes.

Actually now that I think of. I would love more raids like BRF (with the exception of blackhand, gruul, kagraz) but harder in forms of reaction time.

[Relapses]

Good example is hansgar and franzok. Thats probably one of the best bosses I progressed since MoP. Could be made even tighter (less reaction time). And quite possibly without patterns you can learn so every fight requires you to use your eyes.

That...was a meme boss. It was...intentionally a meme boss. It's the first boss of the raid, designed to be the easiest. Like, I get it... different strokes, different folks but of all the encounters in BRF... Hans and Franz? Yikes.