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  1. #21
    There's a very simple answer to that question - asset reusing. I've noticed those banners the day they released the HD revamps of Arathi and Warsong. Blizzard graphics' team created these beautiful high-res models and textures for the Night elves in Legion, and while revamping the Warsong Gulch someone just decided to reuse them, without probably giving it a lot of thought. Otherwise, a graphic designer would have to do the additional work and create a high-res texture of the Daranssian banner with the Moon and Tree, which would basically be used in the background of just a few locations. Since that wouldn't be a profitable move, probably Activision just didn't care and went with that design.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Encaitar29 View Post
    There's a very simple answer to that question - asset reusing. I've noticed those banners the day they released the HD revamps of Arathi and Warsong. Blizzard graphics' team created these beautiful high-res models and textures for the Night elves in Legion, and while revamping the Warsong Gulch someone just decided to reuse them, without probably giving it a lot of thought. Otherwise, a graphic designer would have to do the additional work and create a high-res texture of the Daranssian banner with the Moon and Tree, which would basically be used in the background of just a few locations. Since that wouldn't be a profitable move, probably Activision just didn't care and went with that design.
    Partial its asset reuse, yes, which is a good thing! On the other hand, they did not put it in the camp of the Nightborne in Zuldazar, they only used it for Night Elfs in BFA.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    Partial its asset reuse, yes, which is a good thing! On the other hand, they did not put it in the camp of the Nightborne in Zuldazar, they only used it for Night Elfs in BFA.
    Indeed. Yes it was a remake, but it also was pointing to a lot more. It wasn’t accidentally used. They are showing what it means and that these different groups are surely connected.


    I guess something needs to be said at how selective the information wow shows is that can sometimes paint an impression that over reaches or misses the fuller picture intended. I am inclining to believe the problem is more information is spread through too many media so those who focus only on one are bound to get the wrong impression for only part of the inforntio. Is there.

    If you play and only go by what you see graphically without the context of the quest info, the texts and the extra material outside the game I. Booms and announcements or panels, you aren’t going to always see or connect groups that you should be.

    Sometimes some features are so bright they draw attention from important detail that would properly give context. But then the responsibility is to the player to be observant especially if he is going to have discussions about said thing. Can’t entirely blame the devs if the info is actually out there. Some of it you have to read so if you don’t read text or quest me you miss it. Some of it is audible so if you don’t have sound on you miss it. Some of it is visual in cut scenes and mini scenes so if you skip or afk you miss it. And it’s on you if you can’t see connections.

    It’s quite possible to play the game without reading text, listening to audio or following cutscenes and you certainly don’t need info in novels or Dev interviews to do it.

    It’s impossible to watch a movie without following the story sounds or even text they highlight. Same with a books. You have to read everything there is no other way to “play” the book.

    But if you want to understand what’s going on in the game or have an accurate grasp players have to observe everything. They will find the information is there to properly give context to and interpret what you see accurately.
    Last edited by Beloren; 2021-06-01 at 12:38 PM.

  4. #24
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    A modern NE wearing the Kaldorei Empire banner would be like a 21st century Russian or Ukrainian carrying the flag of the USSR, i.e. completely out of place, especially due to the HUGE political and ideological rift between the old school Kaldorei and the Long Vigil ones.
    Last edited by Soon-TM; 2021-06-01 at 11:19 PM.
    Current state of WoW lore:
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Who'd have known that the Domination guy whose aesthetics are 80% chains wasn't into freedom. Nobody could have seen this coming.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    A modern NE wearing the Kaldorei Empire banner would be like a 21st century Russian or Ukrainian carrying the flag of the USSR, i.e. completely out of place, especially due to the HUGE political and ideological rift between the old school Kaldorei and the Long Vigil ones.
    U don’t think that’s a valid comparison, the way the Kaldorei work, the meanings of their banners and usage, we know none of these things. You can’t make that comparison accurately.

    Who said it was a political banner? Do these ancient people even do nations like we have done?

    Do you know the lore behind the banner and what it is supposed to be symbolising exactly?

    All we know is that all these groups use it and proudly too. So it must mean something. We can try and figure that out till we get an outright explanation or more clues. Or we can get arrogant and assume we know Warcraft better than blizz.

    If we have exhausted all feasible possibilities and a thing still makes no sense, then I think it’s valid to start calling it bs.

    But night elves aren’t modern era earth humans. We’ve never been immortal, been a unified global civilisation with unified belief system ethos and ruler. We’ve never had magic nor quite anything like their set up not to mention splinter groups separated the way they were. Can you imagine living fir 10k years in a bubble and being so good at what you do. You actually maintain your culture unchanged for 10 millennia.

    This isn’t human. I just don’t feel we can accurately make that comparison with so little known about them and their banners. Save what we see and where we see

    Better to assume it is intentional and means something.

    Personally. I think it is a racial cultural identifier. So Nightborne and Darnassians alike will use it as representing the identity of their people, not necessary their nation state.

    Yes you had Priesthood, Highborne, druids in the present sundering era all identify as elves u der that symbol despite very different viewpoints, lifestyles and even cultural habits and norms
    Last edited by Beloren; 2021-06-02 at 02:17 AM.

  6. #26
    If an elf banner has a moon on it, I think it's safe to say that's a Night Elf banner. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

  7. #27
    Something I feel about all of this is that the other elves have to accept that their brothers turned their backs on them.
    For something there are like 4 races of highborns and only 1 race of Kaldorei.

    It is as if Spain had divided into 3 different nations and all Latinomarica is a single Country.

    And if there is a huge difference between Kaldorei and Nightborne. The same that exists between Argentina and Spain.
    Only apart in this story, Spain actively supported those who threw a Nuclear bomb on Argentina.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    A modern NE wearing the Kaldorei Empire banner would be like a 21st century Russian or Ukrainian carrying the flag of the USSR, i.e. completely out of place, especially due to the HUGE political and ideological rift between the old school Kaldorei and the Long Vigil ones.
    You people forget that druidism and long vigil culture was part of the kaldorei culture and identity in the pre sundering era too, it was just quite small by the time of the sundering. All the identities have grown together under the same racial identity. You just separate them like they are a different race, rather than just different lifestyles or viewpoints of the same race. And I know why some of you fans do that you are wholly transferring these parts of the night elves to the blood elves who are a different elven identity ethnicity/group (but one that isn't completely devoid of their elven origins in the night elves). And so because they are on your fave faction, rather than considering them also part of the night elves, fans, especially those like Tanaria, want these kaldorei parts (now they've seen b Suramar visually, and Zin'Azshari (they didn't care about them when they were just text in a book) so badly to be exclusively blood elf because that's how he views them, failing to see them as they are and we are told, they are also kaldorei, in fact they are kaldorei, and the blood elf subset arose from that vein, but that part of the night elves never stopped being night elf, it didn't cease to be night elf because 10k years past or you only saw high elf stuff, so when blizzard showed you night elven Highborne and night elven civilization like Suramar, you refuse to associate them with the night elves even though that is exactly what you are told and shown. this isn't the only reason.. ...Hear me out.

    There is much more to kaldorei identity that is intertwined in the arcane, priesthood and druidic culture differences. the problem is you don't see the common strands clearly, and you are mislead by the very different aesthetics druids have say compared to haughty arcane city types or religious priest types. it's like saying religious Americans, and city Americans vs green peace types Americans who can have vastly different ways of life and live in vastly different environs can't share the same flag and don't have other things in common.

    It is likely because when you first saw the night elves, you didn't see the arcane culture cities like Suramar and Eldre'thalas at first, so you don't associate that with them, even though they are described in the text lore, but because you go by what you see only, part of the picture, you get a wrong interpretation of the people. And rather than correct your viewpoint, you tell blizzard they've made a mistake or gotten it wrong. I blame how blizzard shows these things in game in part, (but fan stubbornness plays a role too, wrong perceptions lingering on forums and constantly reinforced by fans who don't get it, is why when they share the banner shows up, it puzzles them). When only the partial picture visible in-game is your main point of reference not the whole of the lore to interpret things.

    This is a game, it doesn't show everything, so you have to read lore to get the full context, and because you play repeatedly and can stick in one bubble on one faction, you can easily miss important detail that would refocus or correct perception and stay uncorrected for a long time, to the extent you are confused and disagree with what the devs show believing your interpretation (i.e. head canon over what actually is). The way they also separate certain people groups due to the factions has contributed tot his too.. it almost seems forsaken are a completely different race form humans, but they aren't, if you didn't play Warcraft 3, or paid attention to the lore, you may think they are totally unrelated.

    It is your assumption, and an incorrect one, that Nightborne and Highborne stuff is so completely removed from long vigil to warrant that analogy. It is clearly not true. The banner is one of many indicators. The lore also makes you very aware that the nature lifestyle was part of pre-sundering kaldorei era and shows the.. it just comes to dominate the long vigil group not because they have abandoned completely all their identity, but they are not using arcane to prevent the legion.


    It is fans that wrongly interpret what the long vigil is to night elves in comparison to before, it is a suspension of certain lifestyles that were only possible with facilities and power that required spell use of arcane, not because they hate these things, or are no longer a part of them But because they won't because of the task at hand. maybe they mis-interpret because they want to completely segregate the kaldorei from their arcane half, high magic and cities.. i see this very prevalent in bElf horde fans who dominate these boards, and they've been pushing this wrong perception, because they view the kaldorei through the blood elf lens, and not from kaldorei perspective or basis, which they don't really care about. Which is why they get it wrong. They go blood elf is a different people now, different culture, therefore long vigil night elves are also completely completely different from pre-sundering, and thus Highborne, as well as Nightborne.. very eager to remove a core part of what make sup the kaldorei, but easy to to do this because of how different the long vigil and Cenarius type lifestyle without facilities and cities seem to the arcane centres.

    It's a task, not some erasure. It is the hubris they completely abandoned or repent from.. that arrogance. IT just so happened that this also coincides with leaving he arcane for another reason too.. so it confuse people to think long vigil is some different non-night elven, or new night elven way. Do you think the new night elf mages amongst the Darnassians are doing a different culture? No, they aren't, they are doing kaldorei arcane culture but without that Highborne pre-sundering arrogance and imbalance.. This is what changes.. you have to try and see what they are showing.

    Why do you think the kaldorei don't change name .. like high elves did or create a "new caste", like the Shal'dorei do ? Because all that is in the long vigil is still kaldorei from pre-sundering too, it's just the arcane culture bits that aren't carried over because the arcane is banned - no cities can be rebuilt, no more provision of luxury and unlimited things - because no arcane usage. Priesthood continues, Elune doesn't have to stop and nature reverence receives a massive revival coming from fringe to mainstream. the Shal'dorei are just a racial off shoot without the druidic and priesthood elements.. but we even see a reconnection tot his through Farodin, the Val'Sharah refugee druids and priestesses, and we see Nightborne priestesses.. so they are even reconnecting with that part of their heritage just like the Darnassians who are reconnecting with arcane practice in cataclysm and city civilization in classic. those who think the night elves of Darnassus would never live in a full pre-sundering city, completely get it wrong, Darnassus is evidence to the contrary. they haven't changed their city architecture or culture because they lived out of them for 10k years, you feel that because you mis-interpret the long vigil. No arcane usage banned , meant no power to rebuild cities, long vigil duty means, no focus on civilization and normal life.. it's an "alert time" military alert, we are now working with dragons and wild gods to protect the world. this is not their full identity, it's a very very long assignment, and when that assignment ends, Darnassus pops up, arcane also returns. and the return does not remove the druidic culture, or order.. because they have had all these parts exist as part of their race's entire make up. But you people don't want to see this. Because you want only the horde to get the cool night elf pre-sundering stuff, because of your faction rivalry,.. it's clouding your vision.

    The reason it seems such a mistake by blizzard might because you have wrongly interpreted the kaldorei.. there is a reason they are called enigmatic. wow is very visual and doesn't always gives context to what you see, so it seems pre-sundering stuff like Suramar look very different from the rural barrow dens or villages.. but then a city like new York looks very different from a village farm in Kansas. Same nation, same race, same people. People struggle to associate the Highborne Shen'dralar with the Nightborne, not because they aren't the exact same culture, but because they only saw Shen'dralar in ruins with night elf bodies not in Zin'Azshari pristine like place or Suramar like place. they also weren't shown the culture in dire maul like they are Suramar.. and they go by what they see, rather than the lore that tells them this is the same culture, this is the same.
    @OwenBurton you will probably find this interesting. @Pheraz, @Feanoro , @Sharnie , @Mace

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Something I feel about all of this is that the other elves have to accept that their brothers turned their backs on them.
    For something there are like 4 races of highborns and only 1 race of Kaldorei.

    It is as if Spain had divided into 3 different nations and all Latinomarica is a single Country.

    And if there is a huge difference between Kaldorei and Nightborne. The same that exists between Argentina and Spain.
    Only apart in this story, Spain actively supported those who threw a Nuclear bomb on Argentina.
    This is a much better analogy. But the divide is Darnassian, Highborne, Nightborne on one side (hence why they use the same banner), Thalassians on another, Naga on a 3rd.

    Satyr are ofc now part of the legion faction as one of their many side raec, even though they are the elven representative there.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2021-06-02 at 07:30 AM.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    A modern NE wearing the Kaldorei Empire banner would be like a 21st century Russian or Ukrainian carrying the flag of the USSR, i.e. completely out of place, especially due to the HUGE political and ideological rift between the old school Kaldorei and the Long Vigil ones.
    It is probably older than the empire just like the Sisterhood of Elune is older than the Kaldorei empire or at least was founded early on during it, Highborne did not even exist back then. It's the banner of the Kaldorei people.

    I think the comparison to USSR is lacking, that flag got clear symbolism of its meaning and ideology while this banner just shows the Symbol of Elune which is even more important with the modern night elfs compared to the late empire ones (to be more exact, it was still very important to common Night Elfs but not to the Highborne ones. They renamed their main city Elune'dris to Zin'Azshari, that's gotta show you where things were going).

    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    If an elf banner has a moon on it, I think it's safe to say that's a Night Elf banner. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.
    thats the tldr version of this thread :P
    Last edited by Hellspawn; 2021-06-02 at 07:55 AM.

  10. #30
    The Warsong Gulch update and the Darkshore warfront are using Kaldorei Empire banners because Blizzard was too lazy to make an HD version of the moonlit tree banner. That's the only explanation I have.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Linneris View Post
    The Warsong Gulch update and the Darkshore warfront are using Kaldorei Empire banners because Blizzard was too lazy to make an HD version of the moonlit tree banner. That's the only explanation I have.
    Either that, or it’s because the tree is, you know, gone…

    The “moonlit tree”-design was Darnassian, but since Darnassus is now gone, they reverted to an old banner design, old is relative to a race who live to be millennia old, anyway.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    It is probably older than the empire just like the Sisterhood of Elune is older than the Kaldorei empire or at least was founded early on during it, Highborne did not even exist back then. It's the banner of the Kaldorei people.

    I think the comparison to USSR is lacking, that flag got clear symbolism of its meaning and ideology while this banner just shows the Symbol of Elune which is even more important with the modern night elfs compared to the late empire ones (to be more exact, it was still very important to common Night Elfs but not to the Highborne ones. They renamed their main city Elune'dris to Zin'Azshari, that's gotta show you where things were going).


    thats the tldr version of this thread :P
    Very well summarised. I have done the too long do read version.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

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