View Poll Results: Do you prefer the troll or the night elf civilizations?

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145. You may not vote on this poll
  • I prefer the trolls

    61 42.07%
  • I prefer the night elves

    69 47.59%
  • Other / Not sure / I prefer neither the trolls nor the night elves

    15 10.34%
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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Noctiphobia View Post
    Wait, 2 different people in this thread are not aware that humans in fact are apes?
    If you don't mind being called an ape, that's fine. I however do. This whole "ackchyually" thing is goddamn annoying.

  2. #42
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    I do like both, but I'm more of Elven fan in general.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  3. #43
    Trolls have the lore, NElves have that classic WoW feel. Both have been butchered.


    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Races and mutations
    It's either both or none.
    Nightbornes even exposed to the Arcan'dor do not revert to Night Elves, and they surely didn't do so previously. When exposed to Fel they become Felborne or whatever the Suramar guards became, same for Kael's Blood Elves. Those races do not become satyrs, despite the root being the same.

    All elves are now different races much like tigers and lions are different. And all come from the troll "phila" much like we humans derive from some kind of ape or primate, hell, there's even differences between trolls as seen in forest trolls, zandalari and "common azerothian" for lack of a better term.
    We can discuss the stops and commas, but the facts are as presented.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Trolls have the lore, NElves have that classic WoW feel. Both have been butchered.




    It's either both or none.
    Nightbornes even exposed to the Arcan'dor do not revert to Night Elves, and they surely didn't do so previously. When exposed to Fel they become Felborne or whatever the Suramar guards became, same for Kael's Blood Elves. Those races do not become satyrs, despite the root being the same.

    All elves are now different races much like tigers and lions are different. And all come from the troll "phila" much like we humans derive from some kind of ape or primate, hell, there's even differences between trolls as seen in forest trolls, zandalari and "common azerothian" for lack of a better term.
    We can discuss the stops and commas, but the facts are as presented.
    I will never understand people who think that Darkspear are connected to Zandalari , but somehow Nightborne aren't to night elves in a similar way or high elves...


    I just think you have been to laser focused on the elves you think of them differently but it's essentially the same thing. Elves aren't a special snowflake here, blizzard hasn't done this only with Trolls and elves, they've done this with EVERY race because every expansion they produce new versions of everything. New versions of lands, of bestiaries and of humanoids - this is how sub-races are born, and they connect thing too.

    Just because there is much more lore on high elves than say ice trolls doesn't mean that high elves are a totally different species to night elves, but ice trolls aren't to Zandalari trolls


    I mean, you do realise they have "elf" in their name and that is based on night elf the original elf right - I mean the lore and the name does say it all really.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  5. #45
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I will never understand people who think that Darkspear are connected to Zandalari , but somehow Nightborne aren't to night elves in a similar way or high elves...


    I just think you have been to laser focused on the elves you think of them differently but it's essentially the same thing. Elves aren't a special snowflake here, blizzard hasn't done this only with Trolls and elves, they've done this with EVERY race because every expansion they produce new versions of everything. New versions of lands, of bestiaries and of humanoids - this is how sub-races are born, and they connect thing too.

    Just because there is much more lore on high elves than say ice trolls doesn't mean that high elves are a totally different species to night elves, but ice trolls aren't to Zandalari trolls


    I mean, you do realise they have "elf" in their name and that is based on night elf the original elf right - I mean the lore and the name does say it all really.
    But he's kinda right though...yes they're all Elves...the various Elves all came from Night Elves, and you know before that they were Dark Trolls...so should we start calling all Elves Trolls as well?

    They may be Elves (or Trolls) but fundamentally through evolution and magic they're pretty much different races...they're races of Elves but they're still different to their core and share little in common anymore other than long pointy ears.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  6. #46
    Classification is by inheritance.
    Humans are apes. apes are mammals. Mammals are reptiles and so on.

    What is not is inverted. Apes are not human.

    Although of course it depends on what you define as "ape". In verad Simio are usually the Hominidae that includes humans. Now if you define Ape as let's say "Hominidae not counting humans". Well no then.
    But what most would call Ape. Humans are an Ape.

    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae
    There is the tree. but the page is in Spanish. Sure is the same tree in English.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    But he's kinda right though...yes they're all Elves...the various Elves all came from Night Elves, and you know before that they were Dark Trolls...so should we start calling all Elves Trolls as well?

    They may be Elves (or Trolls) but fundamentally through evolution and magic they're pretty much different races...they're races of Elves but they're still different to their core and share little in common anymore other than long pointy ears.
    How to evolve to scientific ends. Yes.
    But I doubt that WoW is based on scientific purposes
    Last edited by geco; 2021-05-30 at 09:07 PM.

  7. #47
    Trolls all the way baby.

  8. #48
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Nope.
    Classification is by inheritance.
    Humans are apes. apes are mammals. Mammals are reptiles and so on.

    What is not is inverted. Apes are not human.

    Although of course it depends on what you define as "ape". In verad Simio are usually the Hominidae that includes humans. Now if you define Ape as let's say "Hominidae not counting humans". Well no then.
    But what most would call Ape. Humans are an Ape.

    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae
    There is the tree. but the page is in Spanish. Sure is the same tree in English.


    How to evolve to scientific ends. Yes.
    But I doubt that WoW is based on scientific purposes
    Why I said evolution and magic...but then again even "evolution" in WoW is kinda fast sometimes, like how Humans came to be.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Why I said evolution and magic...but then again even "evolution" in WoW is kinda fast sometimes, like how Humans came to be.
    There is a hybrid. Dranei, Human Orc.
    Biology doesn't care about WoW.
    is more There are more "human-elves" that should be impossible. What trolls-elves. That should be the only possible Hybrid of the playable races.

    And to add WoW with its lore changes and all that is not reliable without mentioning that they do not even talk about it.

  10. #50
    Pit Lord Aurabolt's Avatar
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    This is in the Lore Forum so my commentary will be in that lens =)

    As everyone is or should be aware by now, The Night Elves originally descended from a tribe of Dark Elves that settled by the Well of Eternity. Their recorded history starts shortly after that point. The War of the Ancients was basically caused by their arrogance in harnessing forbidden magic they thought they could control. During the course and end of the war, the Kaldorei essentially split into eight factions:




    • Darnassian Night Elves: The Present faction. Tyrande Whisperwind, who became High Priestess during the war became the leader of the Night Elves after the war ended. Malfurion Stormrage--Azeroth's first Druid--would join her as leader of their people when then married. The Night Elves are a Theocracy, ultra conservative and very territorial from then to the start of the Third War which they were involved.
    • Sindorei/Blood Elves: After The Sundering, Dath'Remar Sunstrider led the people who would later become known as the Sindorei--and later the Blood Elves--across the sea to present-day northern Eastern Kingdoms. They brought a vial from the Well of Eternity with them and used it to create the Sunwell. They started calling themselves the Blood Elves after Arthas devastated their kingdom. When Kael'Thas Sunstrider turned his back on their people, Regent Lord Lorthe'mar Theron became the leader of the Blood Elves. In recent years, the Blood Elves have become an integral part of the Horde.
    • Rendorei/Nightborne: During the War of the Ancients, the Night Elves of Suramar erected a barrier over the entire city, sealing themselves off from the outside world for 10,000 years. Everything changed when the Legion returned. After the Legion was dealt with, High Arcanist Thalyssra became leader of the Nightborne and elected to join the Horde. After speaking to both the Blood Elves and the Night Elves, she felt the Horde would be a better fit for their people.
    • Naga: As Zin'Azshari began to crumble after the destruction of the Well of Eternity around her, Queen Azshara and her people fell into the sea and it is there she heard the whisperings of N'Zoth. She decided to trade one dark master for another and in that moment, she and the Highborne still alive and loyal to her were transformed into the serpentine Naga. Despite their appearances, the Naga retained their intelligence. Illidan recruited some Naga including Queen Ashara's former handmaiden Lady Vashj, who worked under him in Outland. With Queen Azshara now sealed away, it's not known what will become of the remaining Naga.
    • Highborne of Eldre'Danas: After the War of the Ancients, the Night Elves outlawed the practice of Arcane magic. Those unwilling to renounce it were either persecuted as heretics or exiled. One such group resettled in Eldre'Danas, which is also known as Dire Maul. During the Shattering, these Highborne traveled to Darnassus. When they noticed their kin welcomed Arcane pratitioners of the Alliance, they insisted on being allowed to teach their people once again. Seeing the logic in that, Tyrande Whisperwind agreed as long as those they instructed were all volunteers. This is how Night Elves gained the Mage Class starting in Cataclysm.
    • Druids of Moonglade: Malfurion Stormrage is Azeroth's first Druid and arguably the most powerful. Having learned the ways of Druidism directly from Cenarius, Malfurion started training other Night Elves in the ways of the Druid after the War of the Ancients. The Night Elven Druids share Moonglade with Tauren Druids but would later welcome other races into the Cenarion Circle.
    • Illidari Demon Hunters: When they were young, Illidan Stormrage found he could not grasp the tenets of Druidism as well as his twin brother Malfurion. Fate had another destiny in mind for him. Illidan would become Azeroth's first Demon Hunter during the War of the Ancients, sacrificing his eyes for the power to see Demons and Fel Magic. 10,000 years later, taking up the Skull of Gul'Dan would cause him to undergo a terrifying transformation. Repulsed by Tyrande and exiled by his brother, Illidan would travel to Outland where he would go on to found a faction of his own.
    • Wardens: Led by Maiev Shadowsong, the Wardens are an elite faction of Night Elf Warriors who mostly act independently from the rest of their kin. They are unrivaled, relentless hunters who don't mind if their quarry dies during pursuit. Until the events of Legion, they were an aloof faction that operated outside and separate from the rest of their people. During and after the events of Legion, the Wardens began working alongside the rest of the Night Elves.



    That's quite a lot there, isn't it? Until the Third War, the Night Elves were pretty Xenophobic and had a strict Isolationist policy. After the destruction of Nordrassil, the Night Elves lost their immortality. They resettled on Darnassus but since Nozdormu refused to bless the new tree, the Night Elves would not regain their immortality. It was quite a change for the Night Elves after they joined the Alliance.

    They also had to contend with the Horde south of their boarders encroaching on Ashenvale for several years. The Night Elves deferred to their new allies until the end of the War of Thorns. When former Warchief Sylvanas Windrunner burned Darnassus--killing countless Night Elves in the process--that changed everything. Finding no help from Stormwind, the Night Elves took matters into their own hands. Tyrande underwent the Night Warrior Ritual to imbue herself with the raw power needed to avenge her people. Naturally, such power does not come without a cost. While in the Shadowlands, Tyrande underwent a second ritual to release herself of the Night Warrior power. As a race, the Night Elves are at a bit of a crossroads culturally and literally.

    ...I am very interested in seeing what the future has in store for them.


    The Zanadari are the oldest continuous tribe of Trolls on Azeroth and their history predates the Night Elves. They have seen the rise and fall of civiliations over time for thousands of years. They also consider the other Troll Nations that formed after the Sundering to be their kin and even did their best to preserve the histories of the other Troll Nations. They don't get involved in what the other Troll Empires are doing unless asked or there is a threat to all Trolls like thr Troll-Aquir War.

    Zandalar considers Prophet Zul empowering the Gurubashi and Amani Trolls after The Shattering to be him acting on his own. At the time, The Drakkari Trolls of present day Northrend had been wiped out by the Scourage. The Desert Trolls of Zul'Drak in Tanaris were also wiped out. Fast forward to BFA. The Zandalari joining the Horde was an eventuality and the Alliance sacking Zul'Dazar made it a foregone conclusion.

    All that said. While the Zandalari's history is much better preserved, I have to give the edge to the Night Elves. They've been the underdogs for quite a while and I can't help but root for them.

    EDIT: No idea why my post was made a double post there.
    Last edited by Aurabolt; 2021-06-01 at 12:43 AM.
    ...Ok, time to change the ol' Sig ^_^

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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonrage View Post
    If you don't mind being called an ape, that's fine. I however do. This whole "ackchyually" thing is goddamn annoying.
    I guess you're one of those folks who object to being classified as an animal?

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    And all humans are animals and all humans are carbon based. just because our bodies share the same minerals and chemical compositions does not mean humans are apes. Taxonomical differences exist for a reason, and the terminology exists to differentiate them. you need to properly read and understand the material you are quoting and don't use it out of context to make a silly statement you very well know is not true in the context we are discussing.

    There is a reason we don't call humans apes and we don't consider apes as humans despite how close to each other by our scale they are.. yet by another measure they are very far part, despite the similar dna make up.
    The fact that the traditional and non-scientific usage of word ape excludes humans doesn't mean humans aren't apes. The same way as with animals, when typically saying "animals" doesn't refer to humans, even though we are animals. But in the context you were talking about, humans are absolutely apes.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Just because there is much more lore on high elves than say ice trolls doesn't mean that high elves are a totally different species to night elves, but ice trolls aren't to Zandalari trolls


    I mean, you do realise they have "elf" in their name and that is based on night elf the original elf right - I mean the lore and the name does say it all really.
    This is exactly what I said though?
    Your point always seems to go back to Night elves being proficient with magic just as much as their evolutions because those are just rebranded elves and such is the lay of the law.

    My point is that even in their troll "phila" there's reasonable differences that lead to great varieties of species, and this includes evolutions spun by cultural decisions.
    Night Elves can sustain themselves without the Well at the presumable cost of their immortality, while retaining their long life spans.
    Nightbornes changed from Night Elves to, well, Nightborne due to their exposition to the Nightwell AND the isolation bubble AND their ever increasing development of time magic and telemancy.
    Highbornes changed from Night Elves to High Elves due to their exposition to the Sunwell.
    High Elves, Blood Elves and Void Elves have wildly different predisposition to their use of magic, where one taps into it, one siphons it and one does stuff with portals I guess, I don't know, Ren'doreis are strange.

    And where I'd go into greater detail to underline how we could argue about Sin'dorei being the most varied of all the elven races, it would be off topic.
    However I'll just say this: due to culture and their decisions, and the lack of applications, Night Elves surely have their arcane proclivities. However when compared to the other elven races they're just not up there in their current proficiency of said arcane. And I don't see why the discussion always has to come back to said point.

  13. #53
    Immortal sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    I don't know for the Zandalari. The fact that they deem the bloodtrolls ritual sacrifices barbarous and old timey make it seems like they retconed what you're talking about in the novels.
    it was a rogue zandalari trying rebel against current queen, but it still happened in the pre-SL novel
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Scathan View Post
    if nelves aren't trolls then satyr/naga are not Nelves. Bloodelves/void elves aren't a subset of nelves. the first list are JOBS in the nelf society. so what you REALLY have is Shendralar, nightborne, and tree hippies.
    They all fall under the umbrella.

    If you're going to count sand trolls, amani, drakkari, ice trols etc and zandalari - , then you are going to count high elves, naga, satyr, etc

    if you are only going to count the Zandalari, because that relates to the zandalari troll empire, then only count the kaldorei and nightborne - and you can exclude Thalassians, naga and satyr.

    Either way, there is still more to the elves than the trolls, the lore is just more extensive, detailed and plentiful on the elf side. It's not dissing trolls, it's just how it is.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    This is exactly what I said though?
    Your point always seems to go back to Night elves being proficient with magic just as much as their evolutions because those are just rebranded elves and such is the lay of the law.

    My point is that even in their troll "phila" there's reasonable differences that lead to great varieties of species, and this includes evolutions spun by cultural decisions.
    Night Elves can sustain themselves without the Well at the presumable cost of their immortality, while retaining their long life spans.
    Nightbornes changed from Night Elves to, well, Nightborne due to their exposition to the Nightwell AND the isolation bubble AND their ever increasing development of time magic and telemancy.
    Highbornes changed from Night Elves to High Elves due to their exposition to the Sunwell.
    High Elves, Blood Elves and Void Elves have wildly different predisposition to their use of magic, where one taps into it, one siphons it and one does stuff with portals I guess, I don't know, Ren'doreis are strange.

    And where I'd go into greater detail to underline how we could argue about Sin'dorei being the most varied of all the elven races, it would be off topic.
    However I'll just say this: due to culture and their decisions, and the lack of applications, Night Elves surely have their arcane proclivities. However when compared to the other elven races they're just not up there in their current proficiency of said arcane. And I don't see why the discussion always has to come back to said point.
    Jack you said all elves are different like lions are different from cats.. I was basically saying if you're making that argument for elves, then it stands for trolls too.


    I have always maintained. Blizz doesn't define so precisely their elves or trolls or sub race to current species. If they bare the same name and very similar appearance, it's fair to say they're just variations of one another. Which makes sense.

    When you consider the tale of their origin it also gives clues.. when trolls went to elves, it was described and also show as a new species change, they were physically completely changed and were birthed a new race, new behaviour, culture, attitudes, everything. Even bone structure, number of digits. It wasn't a magical curse or forced change upon them like a polymorph spell or a druid shapeshift. it was natural and permanent and very different.

    Not so with night elves and high elves, Nightborne, naga and satyr:

    high elves: Firstly no magic was involved, they were cut off from the well and grew very weak due to exile, it was more a mutation or deprivation that caused the alteration = variation. Not new species. Furthermore, they continued in many kaldorei cultural modes, though they also changed many, but that's just like different cultures vary from each other, it's not supportive of a new species. Yes their way of doing Highborne kaldorei things modified, but the arguments are well made out, they were going to practice magic having learned from the mistakes of the previous era of the night elves, not stop practising it all together. IF cultural change is indicative of species change, then the Darnassian kaldorei would be a new species, but they aren't, their culture changed too. Furthermore, the Sunwell hasn't officially being labelled the cause for the high elves change, in the only descriptive account, it was the exile and being cut off - blizzard aren't very precise. but hey, the Sunwell was just a substitute well of eternity. It used a vial from the same well that makes the night elves who they are.. it's not a different magical source, nor is it a different power. They utilise it differently, likely infusing solar arcane energies rather than starlight/moonlight ones the original well seems more connected with. But it's not a different source. How would it change the species? Just because one skin colour is purple and the other peach pale? Are black people and white people a different species because their skin colour and shape of their noses are different or because their culture is different? Do you know what caused the differences precisely? Some say it was God doing his magic over time, coupled in with a built in ability to adapt made intrinsic in the human when he created it. Others say it is just spontaneous change, others environmental change. but are they a different species because their skin colour or nose shapes are slightly different? Are high elves and night elves a different species because their skin colour and EAR inclination (not even shape) are different? or are far east Asian people a different species because they're shorter on average than your traditional black/white people, oh and this time it's their eyes, not their nose that's different from ours? What is the standard?

    Nightborne: Here magic changed them, but it was more like a curse, they dry up to being bone skinny and their ear tips curl up, their skin colour Doesn't change, only the tone, their culture doesn't change at all, there is a distortion due to the abuse of magic.. but then the Arcan'dor fixes that.. this is also a variation, even less drastic than the high elves, how is this not another sub-group similar to say African congoid people versus capoid or aboriginal people? or vs far east Asian people or Caucasian classed people - regardless of what caused the change. Being within a bubble didn't progressively change them, it was the over use of nightwell juice. But it did alter them, not a lot, but enough. Different species? maybe in thes ense you are saying.

    Ren'dorei - are still high elves and elves racially, still part of the night elf off shoot, the void has added some differences, maybe in a long time they'd be a completely different species with tentacles and 4 eyes etc.. hehe, but the blast that turns some of their skins purple seems a one off, afterall, Alleria is void elf but not purple and we can onw have void elves that don't have purple skin. Void elf is both a faction and a race, a race of elves and a sub race of night elf. All 3 of these assertions are correct. The argument may be obsolete because we're arguing the same thing, I say potato, you say potahtoe sort of thing.

    Furthermore you hear the names used. Elf, elf elf. Nightborne elf, night elf, Highborne elf, high elf, blood elf, void elf -- elf, elf , elf , elf.


    Are you sure you're not just thinking they're different because they're on different factions and blizzard have very good at presenting each playable race with it's own look, architecture, and unique feel.. yet, for all their differences, Amani trolls are clearly trolls just as Zandalari trolls, and when you look at them with all their history, you can clearly see high elves are elves, just like night elves - whether they're humble druids or haughty Highborne night elves - whether they're in the middle of acity like Zin'Azshari or Suramar or a forest like Val'sharah or Eversong. Or do you think they're one species while in a forest and a different one while in a city?

    Jack if you want to view them as different, I won't stop you, they are different, they're clearly not the same people, but a different species, completely different race? No, they are different race if you use race in the sense the Americans do, like black, Hispanic, white, oriental etc - that's colloquial race, we don't use that definition in Europe, we call that ethnicities, because technically humans don't come in different races or species. We do vary though.. but if that's the sense you are using the term race in, then I'll agree with you, they're a different race. That's the way the term is used in game.. even though some of the races are actually totally different races, some of the race we play aren't. worgen are humans with a curse, not a completely different race. Forsaken undead are humans in an undead state, not a totally different race.


    I just don't view that as a completely different species, though some people do, I guess there is wiggle room in what you would consider qualifies as being different enough to call a different species. for me, Troll and Elf are a different species and race. to me, night elf and high elf or Nightborne are not. different variation of the same species, I can also buy that they can be called different species of the same race, like tiger is to lion - part of the feline or cat bracket - same with dog and wolf, coyote and hyena or fox. But I won't go that far, for the elves, they are far too similar, and only very slightly different.. we have more variation in dog breeds alone than we do in the differences between night elves, Thalassian elves and Nightborne.

    naga and satyr are different because magic is imposed on them to give them their transformation, by Sargeras and N'zoth respectively, but we know at least the former can be undone, and the naga, well at least Queen Azshara can take her original form - whether that's just an illusion or an actual transformation is unknown. Psychologically, I would guess the naga prefer their new appearance because they're corrupted. It allows them to be more powerful physically and magically through the void infusion, they seem to like their new look versus the old - though this is not exactly confirmed, naga seem to look down even on elves and have never seemed to want to return to their original form. At least not the ones we are fighting. Maybe some do, don't know what N'zoth death means for them or how it would effect them, don't know if there are some groups that feel differently - there isn't enough information.

    But it's not a full race change like troll to elf which cannot be undone anymore than human to vrykul can, but naga and satyr seem to be able to be reversed magically, and besides both naga and satyr seem quite fixed on and tied tot eh fate and story of the elves, in particular the night elves.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  16. #56
    Dont forget alliance High Elfs, the race blizz refuses to introduce i guess mainly do their horde bias.

  17. #57
    Wc3 nelves were great. WoW nelves have been nothing but a long disappointment.

    WoW trolls aren't exactly amazing either, but they sure beat the nelves.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurabolt View Post
    This is in the Lore Forum so my commentary will be in that lens =)

    As everyone is or should be aware by now, The Night Elves originally descended from a tribe of Dark Elves that settled by the Well of Eternity. Their recorded history starts shortly after that point. The War of the Ancients was basically caused by their arrogance in harnessing forbidden magic they thought they could control. During the course and end of the war, the Kaldorei essentially split into eight factions:
    Correct mostly, I'll just add a slight correction, the arcane wasn't the forbidden magic they thought they could control, that was Fel, but it was their arrogance in thinking they could do much more with the arcane than they were ready for at the time. this caused them to over reach - the very definition of recklessness and arrogance.. when you think you can handle more than you actually can then you do something risky and dangerous a bit beyond your current level, you know like opening your world to a strange super powerful being obsessed with his power and so in your arrogance, not vetting his intentions, you now..cos you think you're all that and can "handle " it because you think too much of yourself.

    Instead of doing the sensible thing, by examining it carefully, you know with respect as the dangerous thing it is, with correct checks and balances, you go, "Well I'm a pro and the best at this, I can do it better than anyone, it's nothing" and then you delve to an extent you actually aren't able to handle or ready for yet, and it results in something catastrophic above your current level.

    initially all night elves would have approached the arcane like that, you have to in order to have actually been able to wield it, and mater it to the extent they did that 10,000 years later most of your advances and breakthroughs are unrecovered and un-rediscovered. But there is a tendency, that the better at something you get, the more in a sense, contemptuous of it and arrogant of it you can get if you're not careful in that area.

    I suspect this is where the priesthood could have helped enormously , bringing some perspective tot he powerful kingdom that though quite accomplished , they weren't gods yet. But alas, Azshara is written to have been in a power struggle with the priesthood, her vanity perhaps wanted all the praise, and to have no rival,. It is possible part of her motivation to plumb the depths of the secrets of the well went beyond curiosity and magical expertise, but for vanity and absolute power.

    where the priesthood could have brought a reality check and some humility, their arrogance made them resistant. I can easily see their overconfidence, sneering at non-mages, hah...look at what our studies in the arcane have led to in our society, look at the wonders, her.. what has your belief in Elune rotten us.. afterall it's probably why they mostly abandoned the nature magics.. compared to the endless comforts and wonders the arcane produced, the results of the level of druidism (i.e. pre-druidism) at that point was far less incredible than the arcane, it is likely the higher ups especially Highborne, looked down on the other forms of magic thanks to the great accomplishments the night elves (Highborne and non-Highborne alike) accomplished through it.

    Druidism (well it's earlier form) was likely more easy to forget, because Elune was a lot more tied to the arcane and the accomplishments seeing like it was the observation of the well to understand and discover her more that led to their arcane discoveries, and we see a form of arcane knowledge more ancient than the magi I the order. Furthermore, the night warrior were the turning point and main thrust in the kaldorei's victory on Kalimdor, despite the mages, Moonguard and soldiers.

    When she discovers fel, and makes contact with the Legion, it is arrogance that makes her think she is more than capable to controlling it and mastering it, and doing more with it straight off the bat. At this point, the original caution and reverential approach to magic is gone. Perhaps without a priesthood, who surrounded the arcane in religious reverence and respect, there is no advocate to extend that tot he fel.

    It is no excuse of course, anyone handling the stuff immediately can see how dangerous, volatile and corrupting it can be, it is arrogance to think you can be okay without an effect. Why not take it slower? or be more careful? Arrogance ! You think you're all that and you can do it all straight away.

    A perfect example how very very clever people can be very very foolish. And how of wisdom and intelligence, wisdom is the greater of the two. You will be fine with the former present and far less of the latter however, you will be destroyed if the latter is present without the former.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aurabolt View Post
    • Darnassian Night Elves: The Present faction. Tyrande Whisperwind, who became High Priestess during the war became the leader of the Night Elves after the war ended. Malfurion Stormrage--Azeroth's first Druid--would join her as leader of their people when then married. The Night Elves are a Theocracy, ultra conservative and very territorial from then to the start of the Third War which they were involved.
    Yes, and notice they have always been that way, before Tyrande, Azshara ruled, and in Suramar Elisande ruled, and they had very similar love and devotion to their leaders. the sad thing is when those leaders went bad, many followed them into their bad ways, well a few did. When you think about it, only the palace Highborne followed Azshara all the way, and in Suramar, it was clear on those that did and those that didn't. Loyalists they were called [Suramar is essentially the retelling of the War of the Ancients, centred around the Zin'Azshari perspective this time, - it's an adaptation rather than a time travel like WoD, which really annoyed people.

    Blizzard went from the orc origins, to the night elven history. Not the blood elves, their story begins when the Sunstrider Highborne are exiled, so while it is the past of their people's main race, the night elves, it is not their culture's past. The equivalent for the blood elves would be if we did an expansion on the troll wars of Quel'thalas.

    And this is sadly where a lot of people miss it in their eagerness to link the Nightborne to the blood elves. I don't blame them entirely, they are mostly blood elf fans so they naturally or rather habitually think of things through that lens. They aren't thinking the kaldorei or remembering kaldorei lore which Suramar is 100% based on, i doubt many of them played night elves, let alone read the night elf volumes. They'd only see how similar Nightborne are to blood elves, rather than pick up on the deeper and greater night elf connection, because it's blood elves they no and love.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurabolt View Post
    • Sindorei/Blood Elves: After The Sundering, Dath'Remar Sunstrider led the people who would later become known as the Sindorei--and later the Blood Elves--across the sea to present-day northern Eastern Kingdoms. They brought a vial from the Well of Eternity with them and used it to create the Sunwell. They started calling themselves the Blood Elves after Arthas devastated their kingdom. When Kael'Thas Sunstrider turned his back on their people, Regent Lord Lorthe'mar Theron became the leader of the Blood Elves. In recent years, the Blood Elves have become an integral part of the Horde.
    They have haven't they. still, sin'dorei seems more an identity than a racial change from high elf. Even though fel did change them a little, it's not enough, its also one of the reasons I still feel high elves strongly connected to night elves and not a different species/race taxonomically to night elves like some people do. a MINOR MAGICAL ALTERATION IS MORE A LESS A MUTATION, NOT A SPECIES CHANGE. trolls TO ELVES IS A SPECIES CHANGE.

    I do wonder this. How easy can a blood elf just decide he no longer is and is now a high elf. in fact, Silvermoon, is almost entirely removed from the horde, only a hand full of diehards tend to contribute to horde affairs. The people are largely autonomous and independent, no major war since the scourge. Even the forsaken help in Tranquilien was minor, the fight with the sentinels less than a skirmish, and they've been pretty much the same people. Have the wounds of being without the Sunwell healed, how was it's restoration changed their perspective.

    And with Alleria returned, championing the ideals they treasured for so long, you must wonder how many have let go their anger at their former selves and seen it's value and would willing embrace it?

    What if the blood elves get up and say the horde is not for them.? After Theramore, Garrosh and Sylvannas, the attitude of orcs, tauren, trolls, goblins - these are so foreign to them, and in all this time, it's not like they've become more like the races they've allied too. Sure, maybe some front runners and soldiers on the line, but for most of the population? how easy would it be to forsake the horde and go you know what, we've had enough, they were never us, and we don't blame humanity for the scourge, that was the Jailer and Arthas - if anything, this allows them to heal. Tyrande's people don't hate the arcane, and though they may not like the group that exiled them, that group has invited the Highborne back so there are people that they would like.

    How realistic is it for most of Quel'thalas to just turn blue again? Ofc there will always be blood elves, but have you ever imagined a scenario where half or even 3/4 of Quel'thalas chooses to become high elves?

    Would it take another horde war of aggression or race of horde? Let say the horde invite the Amani back, and the Amani attack Quel'thalas, or conspire to undermine them, with support from their kin, and it comes down to the rest of the horde siding with either the trolls or the Quel'thalas lot. what if part of the reason for the escalation was some blood elves venting on the trolls they hate, and it spiralled to this situation?

    I would find this very interesting a development.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurabolt View Post
    • Rendorei/Nightborne: During the War of the Ancients, the Night Elves of Suramar erected a barrier over the entire city, sealing themselves off from the outside world for 10,000 years. Everything changed when the Legion returned. After the Legion was dealt with, High Arcanist Thalyssra became leader of the Nightborne and elected to join the Horde. After speaking to both the Blood Elves and the Night Elves, she felt the Horde would be a better fit for their people
    Slight correction here, Ren'dorei are void elves - children of the void in the elven tongue. The Nightborne are Shal'dorei , children of the night. Shaladrassil, crown of the night. They're more "night" than night elves, but then they're just "nighter" version of them aren't they. Based entirely on them, from them, and part of that race's cultural diversity. They aren't something "new" or "different". They just seem new to many players because that side of the night elves hasn't been shown fully or properly (visually) in the game. And most players haven't read about it in the novels. So it seems new, and not night elven, but it so is. If you are blood elf obsessed, you'd only see the blood elf similarities, you wouldn't be aware that there are closer night elf similarities, just like a blood elf focus would miss the many parts of the blood elves that are from the night elves. Because the k it is different and the allegiance doesn't make all the connections irrelevant.

    I'm not sure she felt the horde was a better fit as much as she felt Tyrande was snubbing her, while Liadrin was "please join us, please join us, please join us" - these things help to a proud and dignified people. Tyrande seems to have no patience for such protocols and functions, a bit more matter of fact about what needs to be done and a bit more weighing.

    I do wonder if the Shal'dorei view themselves as a more exclusive version of Highborne. So not exactly a different race to kaldorei like some players think, but Shal'dorei is more like a caste, exclusive to Suramar. remember, during the bubble, they believed they were the only night elves that existed, defining themselves based on a star less, moon less endless night may have made sense. They have no divorce from the kaldorei culture, in fact, some of them , like Elisande and Aluriel, look little different from their original forms. Their quests often pay much adoration and praise to their kaldorei roots (did you do the Tel'anor quests and world quests? Pay attention to what Thaedris Feathersong says and Valtrois WQ speech, this rhetoric about their kaldorei identity is all over the place.

    The interesting thing is, you don't have to be allied to Tyrande's faction to be considered or consider yourself as kaldorei anyway. Just because they aren't allied with Tyrande doesn't stop or change their identity, or their culture nor their roots, they aren't who they are because of Tyrande's group, so not being allied with Tyrande's group doesn't make Shal'dorei un-connected to kaldorei. Unfortunately players only think of everything in two factions, so if you're not on the same faction you must be something entirely different - ever thought if that faction focus may have coloured your perspective regarding how things might actually be with these? Despite enough indication to say "hang on", maybe they consider themselves the same bracket, just a different faction, their own people, a subset of kaldorei, a caste, but one that is not connected to Tyrande, and that chooses its own direction.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aurabolt View Post
    • Naga: As Zin'Azshari began to crumble after the destruction of the Well of Eternity around her, Queen Azshara and her people fell into the sea and it is there she heard the whisperings of N'Zoth. She decided to trade one dark master for another and in that moment, she and the Highborne still alive and loyal to her were transformed into the serpentine Naga. Despite their appearances, the Naga retained their intelligence. Illidan recruited some Naga including Queen Ashara's former handmaiden Lady Vashj, who worked under him in Outland. With Queen Azshara now sealed away, it's not known what will become of the remaining Naga.
    I keep wondering whether naga can return to being night elves. When Queen Azshara appeared to Farondis in Azsuna, she was in her night elf form, can they physically change to this and remain there? or was it an illusion/projection? If the former, does beg the question, would it surprise you that all those who are naga prefer their current form feeling it more powerful majestic, so influenced by the corruption of the dark force that altered them?

    The Azshara warbringer cinematic showed the Queen fascinated by the black empire cities and the power she would have sensed from N'zoth, and we know she was always hungry for more power.. the naga transformation allowed them to do more than they could ever do as elves especially give them access to new magic (their favourite thing), it also included the ability to reside under water as well as above it, wield greater void power (another powerful source of magic they would already have known about, but not in the measures being offered now) more effectively than they could ever do as night elves, without diminishing their arcane capability (as far as we can tell.). What if it's a choice to remain naga too?

    But even if it isn't, can magic change them back like Elune seems to be able to change Satyr back, undoing Sargeras' transformation... we know so little about how these things work in wow (cos blizzard is vague and doesn't have discussions with us). What if it's still the night elf base DNA that is added too, more like an extra suit inserted over it, like you would wear armor, but this time it's flesh, and the original is still underneath? Because naga is a magically spell induced transformation from a person and not a natural one (whether magically orientated or not, over time and across several generations like it was when trolls became night elves), it stands to reason or at least not unreasonable that these are in some sense still very much night elven and night elf based despite their grotesque and altered appearances.

    The Draenei view the Sargeras Eredar similarly, instead calling them Man'ari, viewing the engorgement and demonic transformation from the titan as a deformity, whereas those very man'ari Eredar view it as an enlightened and enhanced state, consumed by their power lust unable to see themselves as the monsters they've become.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurabolt View Post
    • Highborne of Eldre'Danas: After the War of the Ancients, the Night Elves outlawed the practice of Arcane magic. Those unwilling to renounce it were either persecuted as heretics or exiled. One such group resettled in Eldre'Danas, which is also known as Dire Maul. During the Shattering, these Highborne traveled to Darnassus. When they noticed their kin welcomed Arcane pratitioners of the Alliance, they insisted on being allowed to teach their people once again. Seeing the logic in that, Tyrande Whisperwind agreed as long as those they instructed were all volunteers. This is how Night Elves gained the Mage Class starting in Cataclysm.

    Slight typo correction, it's Eldre'thalas, not Danas. you're probably thinking of Quel'danas. yes, "danas", "quel", "thalas", "dorei" - are all from the night elven tongue (just because it's used in high elven tongue doesn't mean this is where those words exist only nor originate from - I'm saying this for the benefit of the blood elf lens crowd), it's no surprise that dialects that became their own languages share many words. In fact if you think about it, Shalassian is probably much closer to the original night elven language than the Darnassian spoken by the night elves, as Darnassian would have had some changes - due to the cultural change and for more exposure to other races like dragons, wild gods, furbolgs, new experiences would have demanded new names for nature discoveries and things not dealt with in the previous era. Could be Darnassian is a super language we don't have comparison to, and Shalassian is just a subset, or vice versa, Darnassian is the subset of what is now called Shalassian - since the Suramar people underwent hte least amount of change culturally and structurally, only their bodies changed from the Nightwell, this confuses some people. they see the Nightborne looking different, and because Suramar looks nothing like the previous night elf art, they think it's all new and all totally different. That's not what that story shows, nor the lore, the lore tells you they preserved the culture uniquely for the millennia that passed under the dome, and the smae Suramr you see today is the same city prior to the sundering. the culture didn't change, the city and structures environ didn't change, only the organic life appearance altered due to the arcane over use.)

    Whereas Thalassian would have bene a dialect full of terms perhaps more exclusively used amongst Highborne at the palace, but also changed over time as the elves had new experiences, it's probably the most changed of the 3. Shalassian and Darnassian maybe much closer, afterall many of the Darnassians were from Suramar, so they'd sound different tot he Shen'dralar, but similar to the Nightborne. whereas the high elves had trolls, humans, etc dwarves with new magics, cultures, and names influencing their language too. And so great was their hate for the night elves, they'd probably have changed a few things intentionally..

    However it reminds me of how Americans, despite being the newer nation, actually stubbornly stick to certain older and different English terms that the brits don't use anymore, and refuse to change it tot he British standard, in defiance.. these two people's from the same root nation mostly, did go to war afterall in the American civil war. This is why America became a nation and not a British colony. But the people were British colonists mostly, that had influences from native Americans, Spaniards, French, Germans, Dutch, a lot of people from Europe, escaping it's religious restrictions, and rigid hierarchal structure that offered no new chances to people if you weren't born into it, became a haven, all these would have influenced the language, accent changes we see between the UK and Britain. Still the language doesn't change enough.

    in-game actually is very deceptive, the reason languages are classed as incomprehensible, is not because they actually or realistically are, but because they don't want the horde talking to the alliance, if you follow the lore, the bar makes little sense. have forsaken, undead humans suddenly forgotten how to speak common? So what makes you think Thalassian is an entirely different language rather than just a dialect of Darnassian with minor variations? afterall, elves are much more long lived than humans and far more precise on average as well as intelligent on average about these things, they'd likely be far less variation over 10,000 years than would typically be for a human.

    I suspect Eldre'thalas Highborne speak different to Darnassians, they probably are closer to Thalassian but further way from Shalassian. in game does take some liberties that you wouldn't normally, for gameplay purposes rather than this actually makes sense.

    The problem I'm finding amongst the fanbase, is the faction division, is clouding their judgment. They are seeing the differences far more highlighted than the similarities. yet if you think about the situation, and consider what you are told in addition to what you are shown, the similarities are far more than the differences, they're just not emphasised. But they are there, and they are canon. People go by their impressions sometimes moreso than the actual information. In the highly charged faction segregation in wow, this is hardly surprising has led to people taking wrong impressions to a whole new level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurabolt View Post
    • Druids of Moonglade: Malfurion Stormrage is Azeroth's first Druid and arguably the most powerful. Having learned the ways of Druidism directly from Cenarius, Malfurion started training other Night Elves in the ways of the Druid after the War of the Ancients. The Night Elven Druids share Moonglade with Tauren Druids but would later welcome other races into the Cenarion Circle.
    Technically there is no such group as the druids of moonglade. Moonglade has served as the HQ of the Cenarion circle since the night elf nation moved to Teldrassil and was a separate faction itself to the order of the druids. Nightelf dominated, but not exclusively night elf.

    Did you know many of his first druids were former Moonguard and also Highborne, who agreed with him? not every Highborne turned to druidism ofc, you can imagine that those that didn't were influenced by Darth'remar's arguments (which on hindsight we know weren't wrong. I can assume the reason why not every former Highborne sided with him is because they were now druids and had seen in a sense the situation through another lens.

    Maybe they are the reason why Malfy called Darth'remar's group as still being addicted, even though it had been 3,000 years, because those with him from Moonguard and Highborne stock, did not share the same views as the Sunstrider. Ofc the Moongaurd weren't exclusively Highborne, but they were led/organised that way. The lore tells us that former Highborne who had stayed with the night elves took up that identity again when the Shen'dralar were invited back and the ban lifted.

    It is these that are the lorekeepers you fight in zone Azshara as a horde member, the ones that the blood elf mage scoffs at their archaic methods.. these aren't Shen'dralar, these are night elves who stopped practising magic 10,000 years ago, and have only started again for a few weeks. they've improved sufficiently enough to be put into the warfront, one of them is even teaching new novices in Azshara zone.. you can understand this if you understand the situation. The Shen'dralar are few, the invitation to "magehood" is popular, they've lots of people , why? because there is a lot of arcane talent in the night elves tha tmakes these individuals better suited to the arcane and not nature, making "magecraft" rather than druidism or the priesthood their calling.

    Also, the Shen'dralar handpick their students according to Wolfheart, you can tell they are rebuilding the caste, both of brand new talents, and former Highborne returning. The war effort has stretched them, so at least the former Highborne who are amongst the Darnassians don't need to learn everything from scratch, they can pick up much faster than before which is why they can go to the warfront. The Shen'dralar can't teach all those students either, so just like professors have older students as teaching assistants, so to you have former Highborne, who've returned to being Highborne teaching them there.

    there are so many druidic groups, druids of the fang, talon, flame, claw, wild, branch, Dreamwardens, - given that druids can be four specs, they are basically a clasisfication instead of a class.

    What I have observed to often is that a few die hard fans don't seem to get the distinction between the druidic culture and the rest of the kaldorei. nation led by Tyrande. They assume because these ones have all lived in forests it's the same thing. Afterall it was sentinels, priests and druids fighting as "the night elves" in Wc3, they must all be one happy club that work and breathe together.

    No, they were not, the druids were concerned and focused with nature and fulfilling their pact with the green dragonflight. The priesthood wasn't. The failure to grasp this distinction seems to keep swinging Tyrande and the others towards nature when they actually are not, they sit between the two , reaching both arcane and nature. But new developers may not see this, because the community, that doesn't look at the details, just sees them in wc3 and wow and assumes together. And because warcraft lore is so vast, fans tend to be very conversant with the group they love and largely ignorant about others, especially when in-game information shows only part of the picture. But as that is all they play, they assume it is the whole.

    Yet the quests tell us that druids and sentinels have rarely ever mixed together over the last 10,000 years, they do entirely different things. Their culture is different. it's just their habitations and environs that are the same. No temples or cities, it seems harder to distinguish kaldorei nation in the north from druids. Druids sleep barrow dens, and out in the wild, night elves had a village in Night haven, and tents. Druids are attuned to nature constantly fixing it and sleeping in the emerald dream. Sentinels and priests dealt with civilian affairs, guarding against the burning legion with hunting packs rooting out satyr and others.

    Druids only ever joined them when things got very very alarmingly serious. War of the satyr, War of the shifting Sands, the 3rd war and the War of thorns are the four occasions druids join them. Druids don't even join them in the cataclysm war with Garrosh in Ashenvale, Stonetalon Feralas.

    In Ashenvale, when the dryads are attacked, it's the sentinels helping. On the attack on Splinter Tree Post, it's the Ashenvale forest protector Ancients that are helping, not the druid class organisation as a whole, you see no night elf druid there. In Stonetalon mountain, the druids aren't' fighting they're being bombed. The only fighting is been done by the sentinels and a few Highborne, there is even a high elf amongst them.

    the druid Cenarion Circle is not the night elves.. another area people confuse a lot. Northern Kalimdor include Moonglade (former capital of the priesthood during the long vigil era of the northern Kalimdor group, is now Cenarion circle controlled, as is Hyjal, Felwood, and Desolace, these are not Darnassian lands persay, that's not the faction that wields them. we see Tauren, Troll, and worgen druids all dedicated to them, night elven nation allied to the alliance (i.e. Darnassians) can't just go an claim those lands as there, they contain the world tree and the Well of Eternity, two vital arcane and nature monoliths that are vital for the world, the night elves don't claim ownership over them, but the druids protect them. If blizzard wrote that without explanation and movement, it would be again sloppy, and make me wonder whether they understand their own lore. But they do so many things without explanations, who's to tell if those in charge of the story now are aware or have basically mis-understood like the fanbase they are likely coming from.

    Hyjal is not a "night elf" owned zone, though they're the only sentient race that dwelt there. it's the home of the wild gods, and when the two were close they shared that, as the location the night elves fled to after the sundering. Suramar is more native and night elven based to them than Hyjal. As is Ashenvale. Hyjal is the home of the wild gods, and is sacred to them, even with the new well there.




    Quote Originally Posted by Aurabolt View Post
    • Illidari Demon Hunters: When they were young, Illidan Stormrage found he could not grasp the tenets of Druidism as well as his twin brother Malfurion. Fate had another destiny in mind for him. Illidan would become Azeroth's first Demon Hunter during the War of the Ancients, sacrificing his eyes for the power to see Demons and Fel Magic. 10,000 years later, taking up the Skull of Gul'Dan would cause him to undergo a terrifying transformation. Repulsed by Tyrande and exiled by his brother, Illidan would travel to Outland where he would go on to found a faction of his own.
    HIs story is so sad and heroic too, despite his misdemeanours. Do you know he somehow managed to train other demon hunters whiles in captivity? Illiyena Ravencrest was one of many demon hunters following his footpaths.

    The kaldorei did not make many mistakes, but Illidan was one of them. Wrongfully imprison, they misunderstood why he resorted the well of eternity. Blame it on the trauma of the very apocalyptic event of the sundering, I can hardly blame them from being more alarmed than celebratory for the Well's restoration. But in an era that faced the night elves first reality that they were betrayed, they would have been seeing betrayal everywhere, and Illidan never did enough to show that he could be fully trusted .. his undercover work as a double agent was so good, his brotherhood and childhood friend and crush Tyrande suspected him.

    The demon hunters do show a level of grasp on the reality of situations that puts other night elves to shame, the quests in Felwood (post cata) show this. and whether we saw them in blasted lands or the TBC one Altruis the Sufferer, they showed a level of heroism and nobility that was in stark contrast to the accusation of Illidan as betrayer. Illidan the novel delves into depth to see the inner psychology of Illidan and his motives for those who failed to grasp what was actually happening in the war of the ancients trilogy regarding him.

    Well he put all arguments to bed by showing he was always against the Legion in the Legion expansion. Despite being painted the villain in TBC, nothing there suggested he had actually aligned with Kil'jaeden fully and wasn't pursuing the means of destroying the legion.

    What i would like to see is how the Darnassians and the Illidari now interact post legion. Surely the impact that Illidan was right and not a betrayer would be huge.. surely he would be inspiring a lot of night elves too, and the prejudices on magic, and an elves ability to resist corruption would be revised. would night elves delve more into arcane and fel now? Illidan has shown that with strong enough will power you can resist the corrupting addiction of the soul (if not the marks on the flesh) such powers can cause. Not all elves are corrupted by darker more seductive powers . to me it is fitting that elves should prove the strongest and most resilient in handling these magics. Not humans. to me part of what makes humans humans is there vulnerable and imperfection. They make mistakes despite being so talented. This is why they have potential, but that potential is never fully fulfilled in this era anyway. As such, the elves must be shown their advantages over the humans as older and more magically able race.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aurabolt View Post
    • Wardens: Led by Maiev Shadowsong, the Wardens are an elite faction of Night Elf Warriors who mostly act independently from the rest of their kin. They are unrivaled, relentless hunters who don't mind if their quarry dies during pursuit. Until the events of Legion, they were an aloof faction that operated outside and separate from the rest of their people. During and after the events of Legion, the Wardens began working alongside the rest of the Night Elves.
    the wardens make me really curious about night magic. I want them to really expand on the star and moon magic all night elves (including Nightborne ) seem to use it fits the race's origin story, yes I know nature is a big part, but the reason I keep mentioning arcane is because it is the one forgotten by the fans, and the blood elf fans love ignoring this part of them that is as much a core of as nature (in fact more of one, arcane is intrinsic to their make up, nature is a love and they were taught it by Cenarius). As a druid player myself, I certainly don't hate nature, nor the more humble and rural settings of the druids, however, that is not all there is to the night elves nor the only thing left for them.

    I don't view the blood elves and horde as having some exclusive right to the arcane because blood elves have joined. That's just nonsense, humans, draenei, night elves lal have, and night elves it is a core part oft heir race and story, so while fans are wiling to ignore it an paint it with a blood elf brush, I keep harping on about it to serve as a reminder.

    Yet the wardens in Legion showed a lot of "night" magic... we haven't seen nearly enough of this. Presumably shadow meld comes from this magic, and is the "shadowy" side of the night elves the earlier references allude to (I don't understand why some fans think earlier shadow and nature references are valid, but earlier arcane ones are no longer valid because of blood elves). How about they all are?

    Maiev is shown to use shadow magic too, and it's not weak stuff, they are able to capture those powerful demon hunters, and imprison those very powerful demons. if anything their abilities have been heavily downplayed.

    As for Maiev, I don't understand how anyone like her. She is crazy most of the time, full of vengeance, and doesn't see reason. This is part of her character off course, but those are characteristics I don't like. I'm more a mercy, reason, forgive (if a person is truly sorry sort of person. Maiev murders Highborne, attempts to assassinate Malfurion, and it is her prejudice that leads to Gul'dan succeeding in opening the portal that kicks off the legion expansion. Albeit this event is what finally shakes her to her senses. But when she is with Illidan, she is still posturing, saving face - it's a nice touch, because that is exactly how very proud and arrogant people like her behave. I don't like it, but it is correctly written and I like that.

    Would be nice to see more oft he wardens. I finally concluded, wardens were magical sort of rogue class. Their melee weapons, use of stealth and shadow, is basically the night elf version of a rogue. they are also sort of policewomen and police, like intelligence agents fall into the rogue not warrior category. Soldiers fall into the warrior category.

    Could warden be it's own class. Yeah, it could, but it fits better as a night elf version of the rogue, even if they start training non-night elves. Would you liek to see worgen, high elf, void elf and even Nightborne and blood elf wardens?


    Quote Originally Posted by Aurabolt View Post
    That's quite a lot there, isn't it? Until the Third War, the Night Elves were pretty Xenophobic and had a strict Isolationist policy. After the destruction of Nordrassil, the Night Elves lost their immortality. They resettled on Darnassus but since Nozdormu refused to bless the new tree, the Night Elves would not regain their immortality. It was quite a change for the Night Elves after they joined the Alliance.

    They also had to contend with the Horde south of their boarders encroaching on Ashenvale for several years. The Night Elves deferred to their new allies until the end of the War of Thorns. When former Warchief Sylvanas Windrunner burned Darnassus--killing countless Night Elves in the process--that changed everything. Finding no help from Stormwind, the Night Elves took matters into their own hands. Tyrande underwent the Night Warrior Ritual to imbue herself with the raw power needed to avenge her people. Naturally, such power does not come without a cost. While in the Shadowlands, Tyrande underwent a second ritual to release herself of the Night Warrior power. As a race, the Night Elves are at a bit of a crossroads culturally and literally.

    ...I am very interested in seeing what the future has in store for them.


    The Zanadari are the oldest continuous tribe of Trolls on Azeroth and their history predates the Night Elves. They have seen the rise and fall of civiliations over time for thousands of years. They also consider the other Troll Nations that formed after the Sundering to be their kin and even did their best to preserve the histories of the other Troll Nations. They don't get involved in what the other Troll Empires are doing unless asked or there is a threat to all Trolls like thr Troll-Aquir War.

    Zandalar considers Prophet Zul empowering the Gurubashi and Amani Trolls after The Shattering to be him acting on his own. At the time, The Drakkari Trolls of present day Northrend had been wiped out by the Scourage. The Desert Trolls of Zul'Drak in Tanaris were also wiped out. Fast forward to BFA. The Zandalari joining the Horde was an eventuality and the Alliance sacking Zul'Dazar made it a foregone conclusion.

    All that said. While the Zandalari's history is much better preserved, I have to give the edge to the Night Elves. They've been the underdogs for quite a while and I can't help but root for them.
    indeed, why would anybody not root for them? They have it all.. underdogs, great race, courage, nobility, hanging on to do the right thing at incredible costs, a lot of unfair and unjust sufferings, and also with flaws, bad spots. they've also got great beauty and respect for things, yet can be relatable.

    it's a lot, and they've made them alien enough to feel like their own race, not an easy feat seeing how similar humans are to them.

    As you say, there is so much packed in there.

    And when you know their past, and the journey they've made to the current state, you can't help but want to really root for them to get back on their feet and shine. Yo don't really feel that for the trolls who really still do a lot of nasty and bad things, though they also have honourable amongst them and are not the worse society by a long shot. Yet they haven't suffered like the elves, nor are they shown to have the same courage, grace, fire and mystical wonder. Troll mysticism is dark mostly and very savage.

    You want to see the night elves really recover, let them shine brightly, see the night elves glory alongside that of the day elves. not the constant ravaging of them like we see in game. Should the wonder of the pre-sundering only ever be in the past? Shouldn't the night elves themselves gain the best of both their great eras? aren't they the same people in both with the same affinities and capabilities, but having learnt from their mistakes and being much wiser now? Wouldn't it be nice to see a great new era arise for them having the best of both the dark elf an forest elf halves they are made out of?

    My vote certainly goes to the elves. Thank you for your contribution. it was a pleasure responding.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2021-05-31 at 02:01 PM.
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    Wc3 nelves were great. WoW nelves have been nothing but a long disappointment.

    WoW trolls aren't exactly amazing either, but they sure beat the nelves.
    I don't know, the trolls are punching bags to other races as much as the night elves are (And that's leaving aside the kill-fodder NPC tribes), even the Zandalari were a disappointment, we finally see their supposedly great empire in BfA, and it's falling to pieces around them.

    I agree that the night elves have been ground down to nothing by now, but the trolls are similarly weak, it's all about the orcs, humans, and a handful of forsaken now.

  20. #60
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    I think Troll civilization is far more interesting, while Night Elf civilization is just more comfortable and easier to live in.

    Both have/had a loose caste system, but I feel the Night Elf one doesn't completely cut off your means of a decent life. Troll food is just superior since it's basically Central American/Islander cuisine(yumm) w/ dino meat. Troll deities are more responsive, but can also unnecessarily wreck mortal affairs...ahh..

    Overall, I prefer what the trolls have going on. Night elves' whole thing is a monochrome aesthetic and a noble-fantasy way of living that's boring to me now.
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