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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    I am unfamiliar with comics and tend to regard them as a convoluted mess, but i will read this and see if it makes sense.

    Which is not meant to dispute that it may be exactly what Blizzard borrowed from, given that they're Americans likely drawing from American sources.

    Edit: I have seen the map, but it explains very little. Honestly the multiverse thing seems like a poor writer's excuse for not being able to keep the stories straight.
    Basically each world is self contained within itself, but the Bleed aka Twisting Nether surrounds and interacts with them all. Explains how the Legion uses it through portals to travel and their reincarnation mechanics.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  2. #122
    Blademaster dfsdfvh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I would remove Sylvanas from the game.
    Same lol. She is the worst.

  3. #123
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Warcraft: Orcs & Humans (1994) decides to adapt the Warhammer IP instead of coming up with an original story.
    Actually, they were making a Warhammer game, but couldn't secure the IP for one reason or another (the actual 'why' currently escapes my memory) and so Blizzard decided to make their own "original story" and using what they already got going with the game's assets.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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  4. #124
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phyrexia-KulTiras View Post
    I would never introduce major lore characters as boss fights and bring it more back to fighting the "Vancleef's", evil wizards, ogres and lesser dragons of this world.

    I always found it weird they introduced Kel'thuzad as raid boss in Naxx. From that point on they wanted to introducee bigger bad guy, then an even bigger one etc. To this point where we are fighting big multiuniverse enteties and it doesnt make much sense.

    Exiles reach is a good example of content, how i feel, it should be.
    Probably the best post in here. The occasional lore character boss fight would have been fine, but blizzard kept trying to one up themselves till we were killing several thousand year old uber strong lore characters ten years after random weak wizards and murlocs in westfall were kicking our asses.
    2014 Gamergate: "If you want games without hyper sexualized female characters and representation, then learn to code!"
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  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Actually, they were making a Warhammer game, but couldn't secure the IP for one reason or another (the actual 'why' currently escapes my memory) and so Blizzard decided to make their own "original story" and using what they already got going with the game's assets.
    It wasn't that they couldn't make a Warhammer game, they did make a Warhammer game, but in the final moments they ended up deciding that they didn't want to be tied up with a non-proprietary IP. This was probably motivated by the fact that their in-house art team, Metzen and the other Sons of the Storm guys were huge fantasy nerds fully capable of worldbuilding.

    The original direction was actually kind of more surprising. One of Blizzard's co-founders wanted to make an entire series of RTS wargames titled Warcraft for different eras of warfare, fictional or otherwise. There was even talk about a 'Warcraft: Vietnam' based on real-life wars. But in the end, only Warcraft: Orcs and Humans and Starcraft were made. Who knows what the Blizzard lineup of games would have looked like if they did make Warcraft: Vietnam, or Warcraft: WW3

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    It wasn't that they couldn't make a Warhammer game, they did make a Warhammer game, but in the final moments they ended up deciding that they didn't want to be tied up with a non-proprietary IP. This was probably motivated by the fact that their in-house art team, Metzen and the other Sons of the Storm guys were huge fantasy nerds fully capable of worldbuilding.
    Do you have any source for that? Because the story is usually told otherwise.
    Edit: I gues it goes back to Patrick Wyatt: https://kotaku.com/how-warcraft-was-...w-that-5929161
    Last edited by Cosmic Janitor; 2021-06-05 at 06:20 PM.
    You are welcome, Metzen. I hope you won't fuck up my underground expansion idea.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Do you have any source for that? Because the story is usually told otherwise.
    Edit: I gues it goes back to Patrick Wyatt: https://kotaku.com/how-warcraft-was-...w-that-5929161
    It would be out of character for Games Workshop to deny the use of the Warhammer IP since they give it away to basically anyone who wants it.

  8. #128
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    A magic faerie appears, granting you a wish. The condition is you can only change or completely rewrite WoW in your vision and have Blizzard executives carry through with it. You have one chance to rewrite the story in a way that will appeal to the masses and bring back all the fans.

    What do you do?

    Give me your best WoW Revision story pitch.
    I would start by rewriting that terrible piece of $&#@ that was BC (storywise). Especially the last part, when Draenei graciously cleansed the Sunwell, instantly robbing belfs of every single interesting trait and turning them into a generic Alliance race with the wrong tabard.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  9. #129
    Everything exactly the same except Sylvanas says out-loud before the War of Thorns "This is an occupation for the provision of our security. If we do not do this now, the Alliance will come for the Azerite and when they do there will be no end to the bloodshed" which is exactly what she says to Saurfang and then nobody bothers to tell the thousands upon thousands of Horde players why they have to randomly genocide the Night Elves and participate in the abject horror of burning down Teldrassil.

    In the same vein as this, the entire conversation in the Thrall book where he's like "I am not the World Shaman, I am just any Shaman, and that's why I can fill in for Deathwing, not because I am a Top Tier Shaman --I'm actually a bit of a shit Shaman because of all my insecurities-- but because my humility allows me to defer to the will of the elements" except I think it's Kalecgos who points all this out, iirc. That should've been in the game at some point.

    The two biggest miscomprehensions I see in these forums are that Thrall is OP and that Sylvanas wasn't morally grey when she burned down the tree. Both characters are often see as unrealistically good or evil, despite both actually being presented with a great deal of relatable empathy. Sylvanas is basically an allegory for trauma and BPD. Thrall is basically an allegory for imposter syndrome and PTSD. And this actually very good writing and character development within the scope of the world is glossed over entirely because some of the most key moments that elaborate these depictions just get skipped over in-game.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by thesmall001 View Post
    Everything exactly the same except Sylvanas says out-loud before the War of Thorns "This is an occupation for the provision of our security. If we do not do this now, the Alliance will come for the Azerite and when they do there will be no end to the bloodshed" which is exactly what she says to Saurfang and then nobody bothers to tell the thousands upon thousands of Horde players why they have to randomly genocide the Night Elves and participate in the abject horror of burning down Teldrassil.

    In the same vein as this, the entire conversation in the Thrall book where he's like "I am not the World Shaman, I am just any Shaman, and that's why I can fill in for Deathwing, not because I am a Top Tier Shaman --I'm actually a bit of a shit Shaman because of all my insecurities-- but because my humility allows me to defer to the will of the elements" except I think it's Kalecgos who points all this out, iirc. That should've been in the game at some point.

    The two biggest miscomprehensions I see in these forums are that Thrall is OP and that Sylvanas wasn't morally grey when she burned down the tree. Both characters are often see as unrealistically good or evil, despite both actually being presented with a great deal of relatable empathy. Sylvanas is basically an allegory for trauma and BPD. Thrall is basically an allegory for imposter syndrome and PTSD. And this actually very good writing and character development within the scope of the world is glossed over entirely because some of the most key moments that elaborate these depictions just get skipped over in-game.
    But Sylvanas didn't burn the tree down for the reason she told Saurfang in the book, she was apparently lying to him and the reader and secretly just wanted to murder as many people as possible.

    And Thrall is apparently so powerful that he was the only threat to Sylvanas which is why she sent assasins after him.

    The lore is a mess as it is shown in game and undoing it would take so much more than this unfortunately ):

  11. #131
    4 factions from start, with some of the races joining as expansions come.
    - Horde: orcs, trolls, goblins, tauren, ogres
    - Cenarion Circle: night elves, furbolgs, worgen, dryads/keepers, jinyu
    - Alliance: humans, dwarves, gnomes, draenei, vrykrul
    - Illidari: undead, blood elves, broken draenei, satyr, naga

    Most of the factions would generally be neutral towards each other, except in faction war expansions. PvP matchmaking and raids would recruit from every faction to form instances.

  12. #132
    Herald of the Titans Rendark's Avatar
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    There's so much wrong with the story and lore that i don't even know where to start.

  13. #133
    The Lightbringer Clone's Avatar
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    I'd change the premise of vanilla WoW. Have the New Horde and Theramore as they settle in Kalimdor. Midway into the cycle will introduce conflicts with EK Alliance as they arrive to Kalimdor as well. Also have night elves and Forsaken join around this time.

    Slowly ramp up Scourge activities and build to a Scourge invasion at the end of vanilla, followed by the Northrend expansion. No always be a Lich King nonsense at the end. Scourge just breaks up into various small factions lead by more powerful undead.

    After Northrend I'd do the TBC expansion. All expansions after that will take place in worlds that's connected to the various portals in Outland.

    So basically a looser faction system, Northrend before TBC, and anything from cata onwards is discarded including books.

    Have most of the faction conflict be seasonal where people can opt in to three different factions. So something like Bilgewater VS Steamwheedle VS Venture Co for one season, between any three jungle troll tribes the next season, etc.

    Any Horde VS Alliance story will be done through EK Alliance VS Old Horde.
    Last edited by Clone; 2021-06-06 at 02:02 AM.

  14. #134
    The Lightbringer ProphetFlume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faldric View Post
    Maybe not all, but a lot of it.

    I would undo:
    * Parallel universes and time travel and everything attached to it like the burning legion existing beyond time and space. It just made no sense at all. And change the end of Mists of Pandaria to Garrosh being executed and WoD never happening.
    * The Void. It was just introduced because the game needed the next big bad guy.
    * The "realms" concept. https://www.wowhead.com/news/the-cos...n-color-316394
    * And all characters suffering from dissociative identity disorder. How else would one explain the rapid changes in personality of Garrosh, Sylvanas, etc.
    Wow that realms image looks cool. Reminds me a lot of the cosmology of LOTR which is, um...it's weird how many fantasy series go into space. I remember Runelords setting it up before they did the next generation and I stopped reading.
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    Quote Originally Posted by draynay View Post
    I just like reading about the "vigorous rubbing" that might affect ball inflation.

  15. #135
    Get rid of WoD so I could do a proper time travel expansion without having to listen to people acting like "we already did that" every time I express a wish for an infinite dragon-themed plot, and have the faction war end after Legion.

  16. #136
    The Patient
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    The main retcons I'd do surround Garrosh Hellscream. My only rule is that major events which currently shape the story must still happen.

    WotLK:

    The Theramore Peace Summit occurs during the Scourge Invasion and the main person who ruins the prospect of peace between the Horde and Alliance is Varian Wrynn, not Garrosh. Hellscream lived his life in isolation from the main conflicts of the series and vowed to be the opposite of his father. If anything he should have had similar peaceful virtues to Thrall. Under Varok Saurfang's wing, Garrosh proves to be a very effective commander and is hailed a war hero.

    The Wrathgate still happens as normal and still drives a wedge further between Horde and Alliance peace.

    Also, the mak'gora between Thrall and Garrosh doesn't happen. There is no challenge for the throne.

    Cataclysm:

    Thrall abdicates and gives Garrosh Hellscream the Warchief mantle without proper preparation. The other Horde leaders, particularly Vol'jin and Cairne, are angered by the decision and turn their back upon Hellscream. The mak'gora between Cairne and Garrosh still happens, and yes Magatha Grimtotem still poisons Gorehowl and kills Cairne that way.

    The only reason that the Horde doesn't crumble apart into infighting is because they're facing a gigantic freaking dragon.

    Garrosh's encounters with Overlord Krom'gar and Sylvanas Windrunner still happen, but Garrosh is less hot-headed, and shows some remorse when he executes Krom'gar.

    Mists:

    Pandaria's discovery leads to a scramble between the Alliance and Horde to claim the land for themselves.

    Landfall, Thunder King and Escalation still take place albeit with some differences. Vol'jin is the one plotting to overthrow Garrosh because he wants to be Warchief. The others aren't so easily convinced... until Garrosh learns of the plot, places the Echo Isles under martial law and starts oppressing the troll populace. Despite others being on board, Thrall still wants no part to play in it.

    There is no fight between Garrosh and Taran Zhu. Garrosh obtains the Heart of Y'Shaarj without conflict and due to him not knowing how dangerous it is, he hauls it back to Orgrimmar. The artifact of an Old God corrupts him and with the Horde losing ground in Pandaria, that's when he wages an all-out assault on Theramore.

    Theramore's destruction prompts Thrall and the rest of the Horde to openly rebell against Garrosh. The Siege of Orgrimmar happens as normal and Vol'jin speaks for the Horde. This time Varian's decision not to raze the city to the ground comes with more... negotiation. The Horde agree to withdraw from Gilneas, which Sylvanas reluctantly agrees to. At this point Kezan is repopulated by the Bilgewater Cartel and becomes a Horde city.

    Gilneas and Kezan become permanent capital cities for the Alliance and Horde as part of the WoD prepatch. As a bonus the Echo Isles and Gnomeregan become fully-fledged city hubs too.

    Warlords:

    This is where I'd make big differences. Kairozdormu is far more manipulative of Garrosh and has nefarious intentions. He doesn't die. Instead, he convinces AU Grommash Hellscream to side with him and they go through more timelines to amass a gigantic Orc army. Kairoz sets the army upon Azeroth and unlike before almost brings both the Alliance and Horde to their knees.

    Main differences I'd make with Warlords are:
    • The mak'gora is the same, but there's far more emphasis on the fact that Thrall killed Garrosh dishonorably. This is why the elements have stopped calling out to him.
    • Kargath Bladefist doesn't die in Highmaul. He appears as a final boss in a later Warlords raid.
    • 6.1 would have included two raids: Blackrock Foundry and a Farahlon raid where you hold off a massive Primal invasion on Orgrimmar - similar to Everbloom.
    • Patch 6.2 would have been another major Iron Horde raid, except Kairozdormu is the final boss.
    • 6.3 would have been Hellfire Citadel and would haveended the same way.
    Last edited by Clbull; 2021-06-06 at 02:56 AM.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Elyiandris View Post
    4 factions from start, with some of the races joining as expansions come.
    - Horde: orcs, trolls, goblins, tauren, ogres
    - Cenarion Circle: night elves, furbolgs, worgen, dryads/keepers, jinyu
    - Alliance: humans, dwarves, gnomes, draenei, vrykrul
    - Illidari: undead, blood elves, broken draenei, satyr, naga

    Most of the factions would generally be neutral towards each other, except in faction war expansions. PvP matchmaking and raids would recruit from every faction to form instances.
    I had a similar idea.

    Based on Warcraft 3, it would be Alliance, Horde, Sentinels and Scourge:

    Alliance: Human, Dwarf, Gnome, Draenei, Blood elf, Kul Tiran, Mechagnome, Lightforged Draenei and Nightborne.

    Horde: Orc, Troll, Tauren, Mag'har, Zandalari, Highmountain and Vulpera.

    Sentinels: Night elf, Worgen, Pandaren.

    Scourge: Forsaken, Goblin, Void elf and Dark iron Dwarf.

  18. #138
    I would retcon the story by telling Blizzard not to make WoW a storytelling vehicle at all, as that is part of what have made the game worse over the years in my opinion.

    What do I mean by that?

    Well, sure, the game has always had stories in them, but in vanilla it wasn't a story, it was more of a collection of small stories that recalls or deals with the aftermath of big stories that came before, mainly picking up the pieces of or pointing back to important events that we have experienced in the RTS games before. So I would tell them to actually keep doing it that way: rather than drive the story of the Warcraft universe through WoW (and in doing so turning it into more of a single-player RPG experience, which is a problem when the game is supposed to be an MMORPG) I would keep the Warcraft RTS series going and tell the main storyline in those games, keep all cutscenes there, let players actually experience the story through the eyes of major lore character instead of making each and every one of us into the main character, and then let every WoW expansion deal with the aftermath of the stories told in the RTS game, very much how vanilla did that vis a vis the RTS games. So rather than us being the hero who charges in to deal with the latest threat to the universe, the major lore characters would do all of that, and we'd be the random adventurer and gun-for-hire who swoops in to zones where major events took place to kill remnants of the big bad army that now may have disintegrated into local bandits or cults, make a profit of of pelt from new exotic beasts, or pick up poop. As the Alliance and the Horde aims to recoup their losses from the latest war, any temporary truce to deal with a common enemy would naturally be over as we compete for resources, making the drums of war thunder once again....

  19. #139
    Almost all of Garrosh. I liked his story in Nagrand, after that though? yikes.

    All of Sylvanas since Legion. They claim they have several expansions roughly laid out, but her entire arc seem like it's been thrown together last minute and all over the place, and since she's been the primary character over the last few expansions, makes me wonder if the that claim about several expansions laid out is just bull.

  20. #140
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Dump the Cataclysm zone changes (mostly). Straighten out the pre-existing lore and create new lore for future releases so that 1-N leveling would make sense.

    Use the world. It's a damn planet.

    I also would be more careful about killing off lots of major lore characters chasing after a shocking but short-lived "epic moment." I would create future timelines for all of those major lore characters so that future stories would make sense. I would build a real history of Azeroth and it's lore characters and stick with it. Metzen was trying to do something like this. I don't see anything like that happening now.

    Changes to the world may be OK but they need to make sense with existing and future planned storylines. They would have meaning going forward to future expansions. That, sadly, is completely missing because Blizzard's development strategy for expansions is to create a few zones and then lock everyone into them for 18-24 months.

    I would also break apart factions so they were more amorphous. Tribes and races would have shifting alliances and problems with each other that might lead to skirmishes. The game would be more covertly political in that sense but the politics would express as military or tribal actions. You might even have some races going neutral for a time.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2021-06-06 at 11:12 AM.
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